Steve Klc

OK, we're getting closer Elyse--so it seems like you have a handshake agreement right now but nothing firm down on paper as far as the financial relationship you will have with this kitchen. This can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings down the road. You sense this so make ironing this out your next priority BEFORE you spend very much money on equipment. Do not rush into this with some self-imposed deadline of Tuesday. You don't need anything by Tuesday. if it is worth doing it is worth doing right and protecting both yourself and the nuns. I'm also especially concerned about the splitting of ingredients cost--that can get very tough to quantify. You might want to maintain your own stock--you buy everything--you have a separate possibly locked storage cart/shelf and don't use anything the church or the nuns use for whatever else goes on in the kitchen--then determine what the nuns share of your "profit" is on that part of your production that is not wholly your own. You have to assign the value of your time and efforts and the nuns have to agree--in writing. It isn't just the making it is the transporting and the packaging and the selling. So at this point, buy the 5 qt Kitchenaid K5A for yourself, pay for it, bring it to the kitchen but plan to keep it if the deal goes sour. Work out your written agreement--trying to protect you I'd suggest that the church purchase the 12/20 quart Hobart with their share of the profit--meaning your first kickbacks to them goes straight toward the Hobart--and then the Hobart becomes the property and responsibility of the kitchen. I'd ask yourself--what happens if anything goes wrong in the kitchen? Whose responsility is it to fix it? This should be in writing. Whose responsibility is it to clean the kitchen? Will anyone else be working there or will it just be you? Will you have your own key and 24 hour access? If I'm getting the gist of your situation--you'll be working in a church kitchen, selling product you bake there and kicking back. Please cover yourself especially if other people will use the kitchen. How will theft be handled? Ask yourself how you are protected if the nuns decide to bring someone else in to do the very baking you are setting up for them and they say to you--thanks, but we're going in a different direction. I know you asked about mixers but I really sense you have more important questions to ask and answer than which mixer to buy. I don't know anyone who has a Fleetwood. Everyone has 5 Qt. Kitchenaids and 12's and 20's. Like Michael my large Hobart in Zaytinya is used for pita bread and way more often as a meat grinder than for the two things I do in it--my semolina cake and shortbread. And Zaytinya is seriously high volume. With all those ovens it seems you do have the ambition and the need for a 12 or 20 Hobart. If you'll basically be a one person operation a 12 like kitwilliams bought would probably do you just fine. It's the most versatile as your plans and the items you offer most certainly change--as they will. It'll also handle bread more efficiently.

Again, not really. There are many 20 quarts out there being underutilized. Large mixers not used to capacity are 1) a waste of money better spent elsewhere, 2) undersized recipes in over-sized mixers don't give you good end results in many many things and 3) aren't actually time savers. You have to stop and scrape down the walls much more often to help them along, you have to wait longer for airy things to rise like meringues and pate a bombes and your staff will be much more tempted to lift up the bowl to bring it closer to the whip--which is awful on so many levels--safety and reducing the life of the machine being the two main ones. You wonder why these Hobarts break down? That's why--and also the larger Hobarts aren't designed to shift speeds like the smaller K-aids. This isn't news to anyone, but you're really supposed to stop the machine, say, before switching down from 3 to 2--so stop, switch to 2, start again. In reality very few kitchens work like this. Hence repair calls. You can switch the K-aid speeds at will and on the fly. That said, if your business plan--and your commitment level-- has budgeted for that kind of volume, by all means, go large. But whether you're baking out of your home kitchen and selling stuff at a table at your daughter's PTA bake sale or in a semi-professional attempt at a farmer's market you'll still need a 5 quart and you don't have one. It still makes the most sense to start there.

OK Elyse--now that we know where you are--are you prepared to talk about things like small business loans, zoning, insurance, sanitary inspections and a business plan yet? If yes, then consider a 12 to 20 Hobart, used or new, and how that fits into your business plan. If you are not--and I suspect you are not--then just buy a Kitchenaid K5A--the 5 quart older style as opposed to the "newer" style 6 quart model. It can ease you into small batches of cakes, cookies, doughs, etc. Those models really do last a long time and would be the perfect next step up for someone in your position--I frankly don't know how any interested amateur does without one. You can get one new for under 300 bucks at Price Club. We've talked about models before on eGullet and in my experience the newer 6 quart Kitchenaids suck--motor sucks, wider more shallow bowl sucks. I'll stop using that word now. One year we were forced to use the new K-ad 6 quart model during the National Pastry Championships--and we couldn't bring our own 5 quart models and bowls as backup. Of course we get there and all the extra 6 quart bowls promised to us didn't arrive. Just another little way we were screwed. That's beside the point, though--so we were given the 6 quart models to take home and we put it through its paces. Terrible planetary action vs. width of the bowl, awfully slow calibration when it came to changing speeds vs. the older 5 quart models, very frustrating. It's no surprise Scot K-aid is supposedly introducing an improved model. But one or two extra mixing bowls and you'll be surprised at the kind of speed and efficiency you can get right out of the box as you step gingerly toward this new career option. By the way, in case you can't tell, I'm seriously urging you to examine the legal and business issues before you spend too much money (and perhaps you already have.) It is very important that you protect yourself and your family before you get in too deep. Now, what I've said kind of applies to a general part-time baker. If you are going into bread production in any semi-serious way you will have greater needs than what a 5 quart Kitchenaid can handle. There are actually standmixer alternatives that the bread guys seem to like more so than the Kitchenaids. So if you are mainly bread--let us know; if you're mainly mixed use and are starting slowly and gingerly, I think a new Kitchenaid K5A will get you off to a great start. Until you hear some glowing reports of the 6 quart Kitchenaid from some really good pastry chefs not sponsored by Kitchenaid, I'd stay away from them.

Thanks for that response Cadmia, but without a better recollection of your meal or any real specifics all we really have to go on is what you conveyed, which is too general and vague to get us anywhere. We'd benefit knowing more of the what and why of your experience and at this late date that's not possible. But I can tell you one thing--pastry shop desserts and restaurant desserts are two different animals. Ann has been the most well-known pastry chef in this city for years, getting several Beard nominations for best pastry chef nationally over a long career. I think you have to evaluate her wedding cakes and her work at the pastry shop apart from the restaurant plated dessert work--just as you might evaluate what a chef does in his restaurant versus his line of takeaway products for sale in a market. The first questions I ask as a diner--this being a pastry chef myself--is 1) are the desserts good and 2) do the desserts follow the food in an appropriate style? And that's where I called you on your use of "inventive." There are many good pastry chefs who work in a traditional style who aren't inventive. Taking the opposite tack, a pastry chef who might lean toward being inventive is not good because he's inventive--he's good because he's good and happens to be doing interesting, creative work. And in terms of the overall experience--as long as the food and the desserts match up in terms of style--be it traditional, interesting, creative, conservative, inventive--I think that's what is ultimately important.

Elyse--I think the answer to your question is depends on the kind of business you are considering budding--so fill us in a bit more? There is a used market trading these smaller restaurant Hobarts--less than 20 quart--but I guess my real question is what it is you see yourself doing with it? Any bread? I can't tell you the number of kitchens I've been in where there's 1) a big Hobart just sitting there taking up space. They don't work as well doing certain things vs. a smaller batch and if your staff screws up a batch it is expensive mistake or 2) the number of kitchens without a 5/6 quart stand mixer, which is essential. So fill us in, don't over-purchase and don't neglect a 5/6 quart machine--which is what you'll most likely end up using anyway, especially if you're doing smaller batches of different compenents and then combining them.

I'm intrigued by something you wrote Cadmia, why did you expect something more inventive? Was the "cuisine" which preceeded the desserts inventive and if so, how? From your next comment "It's not that they weren't good," we are supposed to take from that that the desserts were good, right? Which ones did you try? Do you recall how many apps, entrees and desserts you ordered and what your check came to? Did you get Ann's very nice little caramels as a petits fours?

The Tosca RW menu is up. Very nice selections: http://www.toscadc.com/rest.%20week%20lunch.htm

John I think your latest assessment is pretty right on overall--and you agree with my ultimate point which is, essentially, if you are going to do it, do it well. That's from the industry side. I think where I diverge from you the most--and again--I think we're even pretty close on this--I'd rather see inexperienced diners not have their sense of a restaurant (and their general sense of fine dining or food and wine pairing) formed by their experiences during RW. The odds are just too stacked against an inexperienced diner guessing wrong--or being led wrong--someone who doesn't eat out a lot and someone who may not eat at these types of restaurants very often when they do go out to eat. And then what might happen to the person so looking forward to this but who is inexperienced? They have a so-so experience under difficult circumstances all around as a result of the "mayhem"--they wonder is this all there is or if it is worth the hassle--and next time they settle back into the rut of the Cheesecake Factory or the chain. The obvious promotional boost aside, I guess the question to ask is does RW ultimately raise awareness long term or just result in a stressful, short-term boost in covers? Does it help create more savvy and appreciative diners? It's one thing to get beaten up on the internet, as you say, but much of that is anonymous, uninformed, unsophisticated and for the wrong reasons anyway, especially what takes place off of eGullet. If there is value in how we discuss things here it's ultimately going to be in how we help raise awareness and savvy amongst all diners. And I'm not worried about the more experienced diner doing RW--especially returning to places they've been before. They know what to expect going in and are in a better position to assess, to evaluate. I don't know why Jose and Proximo aren't doing RW but I could hazard several guesses--RW is really designed to fill high end tables at lunch and dinner; by and large Jose's places are fairly packed and service stretched as it is, at very moderate price points for both lunch and dinner anyway and offering good value and interesting food at those given price points. In terms of tapas and mezze well that's just tailor-made to give newbies and the "bridge and tunnel crowd" a taste, to dip their feet in the water at a gentle price. (Why do you think so many other restaurants are starting to offer some version of small bar food and small dishes?) It's already controlled, regular and managed mayhem in those restaurants at least during peak time. So in effect it's RW all year round at Zaytinya and Jaleo. Cafe is a different kind of restaurant, unique actually, and has some very special things already, a nice list, the weekend dim sum and the opening of the upstairs Bar this month, each in their own way drawing people in and raising awareness little by little. The decision to particpate or not might also have something to do with the notion of "value." Let me put it this way--who is giving more back to the community and offering better value (not that I buy into that as a valid reason for RW but just for the sake of discussion): Restaurant A--participating in RW with the limited $20 lunch and $30 dinner deals but who has a very over-priced wine list, unhappy servers and looking to turn your table over quickly or Restaurant B--who is not particpating in RW but where you can eat well for that amount of money year-round, at your own pace and drink wines much more fairly priced year-round? I'd always go with the place offering "value" like that year-round as giving more back to the community. Regardless, one thing we're all agreeing on is this--whether you make the effort to do RW right or try to do it right all the time--you're going to connect with customers, form a good impression, and as a result get repeat business. And in the long run that will help everyone in this area trying to do good work.

Yeah but John, RW has been going on in NYC for a long time, it always seems more of a crap shoot than it should be and if restaurateurs really wanted to give back to the community they could run half-price wine nights with their full regular menu and I think as many people would appreciate it, there would be less confusion, less attitude, plus the service staff would get tipped better because most frequent diners would tip on the full price of the wine anyway. Even if they didn't, they'd still be ahead since diners would be tipping on regular food prices. We're not disagreeing John--I'll just point out there are other ways to give back which don't necessarily impact the staff, the service or the dining experience as negatively as I sense RW does. Bill, I'm interested as well, because I think it's important to talk about the places that do really embrace restaurant week in good faith. That's what really drives the NY forum threads on this subject and I'm gratified to read so many positive experiences. Here's the thing, though, NYC is a much much more competitive market anyway. Two caveats I didn't mention but which you might want to consider: first, if you dine with someone picky, as I do, RW might not give you enough choice and second, for these meals to have real value, for me it usually comes down to the dessert being good. A good app and an entree--though most likely not what you'd like to order off the regular menu--plus a too-warm $13 glass of red wine and a not-so-great (regularly$7.95) dessert you would have regretted ordering anyway is no value. So try to check out the RW menus, see if there is any special wine pricing ahead of time, and then roll the dice on dessert. Hopefully we'll accumulate a few success stories that see RW as a way to reel in customers long term. (Like John in how he offered the whole menu rather than some very limited set menu.)

I take a somewhat passive anti-Restaurant Week approach. Not that I'm against RW just that during RW I find I choose to go to restaurants that don't participate. On my list this year is a first visit to Nectar and a second visit to SBC Cafe. As a customer, I've always been skeptical of the true "value" a RW offers--restricted menu options, dining rooms filled with more tourists, more newbie and/or unappreciative locals, more crowded dining rooms, servers having to work harder for less appreciative diners and less than their usual tips. I don't think these RW weeks are fair to the service staff. On one hand RW is a good thing for some restaurants that for whatever reason aren't doing the business that they'd like to do, but my first suspicion is maybe they aren't doing the business they'd like to because their overall commitment and effort week in and week out isn't the value it should be. I don't think I'd want my first visit to a place to be under these trying conditions, with the chance of a pleasant experience slightly stacked against me. That's also not to say there isn't some potential on the list this year--there is, most notably for me Kaz Sushi, David Greggory, Yanyu, Tosca, Signatures, Poste and Sushi-Ko, I've been to some of these, not yet been to others. However, I think I'd probably enjoy both a first experience at these places better some other week and enjoy a return visit to these places some other week.

There was an in depth article in the Post Business section not too long ago on the revitalization of Crystal City which focused on the new Mexican restaurant catty corner I believe to another Jaleo branch. I thought I read late summer 2004.

Again, very interesting Joe, but I fear you're missing some of the forest for the trees on this. Your personal assessment of meals taken in at these restaurant are yours alone and unchallenged by me. But I feel you may have 1) read too much into a purposefully vague comment he made out of context--that was your mistake since no one can have an idea what "recent memory" means to him, 2) you might have felt a little challenged on your home turf since obviously you live/dine there a lot and 3) you continue to value this throwaway comment higher and out of all importance to the actual review--which is the thoughtful condensation and evaluation of several meals not one. You'd agree he has as much right to one amazing meal as you have to your meal with the lemongrass trout. It may have been he had this amazing meal which fired on all cylinders after enduring three weeks of crap elsewhere--pedestrian food by pretentious or name chefs or crummy and not so good cheap eats all of which was mandated by his job. And critics eat A LOT of crap. But it is the review--and only the review--which has to trump all, it still seems to me he's tempered himself nicely, professionally, in that review--which again is what counts to most of us. He conveys to me that he balanced the initial excited flush with cold dispassionate extended reality as any good critic has to do. And as I pointed out--which you didn't address--you do seem to support Tom's overarching position of quality to value, and especially when you add food + wine pricing together. Doesn't extremely advantageous wine pricing render a few bucks of entree pricing moot? I'm at a disadvantage not having eaten there yet, but it still seems to indicate Tom nailed this--and as I've intimated, he seems to nail virtually all of his reviews if my actual dining record is any indication. (He overvalues a few, undervalues a few, but in the grand scheme those are quibbles and VERY subjective. And no one around town is talking about him holding any grudges, revealing any pettiness in his reviews or failing to appreciate someone doing good work appropriately. Except, of course, for those Bethesda chefs who wish Tom would give them a little more due.) Back to SBC--Joe--now you've introduced two new points of comparison--Blue Iguana and EuroBistro--which I guess have even lower price points and more advantageous wine-pricing than all the other restaurants introduced by way of comparison--that must not hold up well to comparison value-wise when wine is added. It could also be that you--and the few others on this thread that have eaten there and seem to me to support the accuracy of Sietsema's review--are not that far apart. You fear price creep of a few bucks on the entrees, and don't taste much difference between SBC and a bunch of other local suspects and John W found some of his meal unadventurous but then went on to describe some very interesting dishes (to me) that make me wonder whether you're right about the cooking at SBC--that make me wonder whether you've accurately conveyed these other restaurants--how can so many burb joints have the same level of menu interest apparent at SBC? (That this entire region does not support adventurous food notwithstanding of course.) If there are all these places doing such bold, balanced, interesting stuff out there I really have to get out there more--because it would be a better scene than my neighborhood scene! And of course none of that really matters since this will remain a small crowded neighborhood cafe offering interesting well-prepared food at a very amenable food + wine price point to most of the reasonably affluent residents and families out there. It will be crowded, there will still be lines and a few bucks won't make any difference because there are so many people out there and the drive elsewhere is still a hassle. And I remain eager to go out there and wait in line, which says something. I do remain happy Tom's not writing about a NC restaurant--any NC restaurant--on Magazine time. I wish a few others would weigh in because I see us diametrically opposed on this Joe--you want to expand his sphere of responsibility and I want to reign in the level of expectaion geographically. On this we probably will always disagree. But I bet I'm in the 985,000 of his readership who will always value local attention higher--where more of us are more likely to dine--than however many thousands go to the beach for a few weeks in the Summer and might care if Tom had a few recommendations. Another way to look at it is this--if Tom has to reach to NC for a Magazine column our food scene must not be as good, as dynamic as some seem to think it is, right? By that logic should we also expect Tom to cover the New York restaurant scene much more than he does--since exponentially many more DC residents go to NYC much more frequently? I'd much prefer he just say hey, Carolina is off my lead critic Magazine beat, maybe I'll do a Postcard, and spend that quality Magazine time, space and dollar re-assessing the price and culinary relevence of, oh, I don't know, say the Inn at Little Washington--or any other "destination" restaurant closer to home. Surely you'd agree with that, right? And remember when the Times--the "national" paper of record covers DC restaurants--it's a writer like a Marion Burros and not either of their critics. Not saying that's the way it should be, but would you ever expect a Grimes to keep his readers abreast of the dining goings on in the Catskills? Sure the patterns and choices a critic makes in terms of the restaurants reviewed is a valid concern--on one level--and open to our assessment. But--good writing and getting it right will always be more important. On this surely we don't disagree. Your bringing up Zaytinya is very illustrative as well: Sietsema could only give Zaytinya the treatment it deserved because it was the most serious new restaurant project debuting since Maestro which had a highly regarded chef in Jose, the most signifcant local designers, a smoking hot concept and experienced management with a long track record of doing things right in the community. So here's this stylish restaurant in a hot downtown area which is going to get serious national media attention and it is value-priced to boot. He knew he'd look foolish if he didn't weight it accordingly--and give it its due in the Sunday Magazine. And if he didn't his editors surely did. That's not the same thing as saying he had to give it a glowing review. He certainly did not have to--like any critic he could have given Zaytinya the Grimes/ADNY treatment (the initial harsh review--expectations not met--followed by the mea culpa retreat a year later) or could have said the quality and value didn't match the design, etc. But what he couldn't have done is avoid something so serious, so obviously within his beat, without hurting his career. You really think "most" readers of the Post care about this restaurant in North Carolina? That the Inn @ LW is considered a Washington DC restaurant is enough of a stretch for me. Beach advice in some of these DelMarVa destinations seem so clearly to be stretching Sietsema's priorities. That's so more an Eve Z, a Travel or Style beat or the beat of that new (great) hot Sunday Post section, no? I love Eve's writing as well, though Eve seems to beat to a different drum and different priorities probably by editorial and political design. Remember it was Eve who first wrote about Jay Comfort when he cooked in Fredericksburg. Did you find fault with Tom NOT writing about Jay? Would you fault the Post if they ran some "where does so-and-so DC chef dine when he's in "at the beach" piece? as their way to cover that scene--those readers who go to the beach--instead of stretching Tom to cover that as well? Once you start to go down this road it's hard to stop extending one's priorities. Do you also think "most" readers of the Post expect Tom to cover Baltimore? I don't, couldn't care less about Baltimore but I may not be representative of the Post readership. (On this I think I am, though.) That's another wasted week anytime he does B-more. (Kind of like the Post writing about the Orioles, but that is for Sportstalk radio.) And if I were the chef of some restaurant in North Carolina I wouldn't, couldn't ever sanely expect the lead critic of the Post to write about me, let alone review me and weight my work as high a priority as with DC chefs and restaurateurs. But back to SBC--to feel a Sunday review of SBC isn't warranted--which is a strong critique--you'd have to at least point to a track record of overlooked gems or significant new restaurants he's missed--you'd have to point to good work being done elsewhere not on his radar--a radar which includes his chats and the Wednesday Food section paragraphs. And you haven't done that. You disagree about the Postcards but I don't see you offering valid reasons why--again, these postcard trips are on his time and his dime--they're not a part of his Magazine/Food section beat at all. Those two restaurants you mentioned would be on his regular beat radar if you had your way--Tom would be writing about these country inns because he should--they're in our area and many DC area residents go there--just like you feel that's why he should be writing the review of this NC restaurant. The reason why his Postcard effort is valuable and stands to make him a better critic (which you also don't address) is that critics have to learn and to broaden their horizons as well, and they aren't going to learn much at these country inn destinations. I've had my fill at the Blackbird/Ashby Inn types and, well, they're quaint and ok for where they are but over-praised in the grand scheme of things, don't you think? I have an open mind toward ones you consider exceptions and may one day be in a position to try them. But I also have no problem with Eve handling the Inn beat--she has the track record with me of identifying Jay Comfort and if she feels there is someone doing his level of cooking way out there--I think most readers will listen and go. Is it reasonable to expect Tom way out in those sticks as well? Odds are much more likely there isn't any chef duplicating what Jay did at Bistro 309. Odds are, too, if there were, someone would be talking about it online who has enough credibility to prompt local critics to get out there themselves. Tom's postcards have much more potential to help him put our local scene, our local chefs, our local pricing and value here into a fuller context. It would be like him--or any diner on the high end--going to an El Bulli or a Trio or a Gagnaire and then being better able to frame what is going on at Maestro or what Jose Andres is now doing at the Cafe Atlantico bar from first hand experience, rather than reports or guesswork.

For those lurking or new to the site, Sietsema was our guest and sat in for an eGullet Q&A recently. He gave us some clues as to his approach to his job: "My goal is to write about two suburban places and two Washington spots every month. I aim for a mix from week to week: a mix of neighborhoods, price ranges and cooking styles. When I can, I like to do double reviews, and updates on established places." "My hope is that I come across as a good friend who wants you to eat well, someone who can point you in the direction of places that are worth your time and money, and away from those that are not. I think it’s also important for a critic to provide an interesting read; not everyone is going to be going to the restaurant in question, after all." "My constituency is the diner more than the restaurant operator or chef, but if I can boost the scene with a positive review, I’m certainly all for that. Now and then, I’ll put something in a review to let folks know where I stand, or make a point (why are desserts so bad around here? Why do so many restaurants store their wines improperly?) The Sunday Magazine reaches about a million people, so my audience is pretty mixed. And judging from my calls and letters – I hear from college students, yupsters, retirees, foreign visitors -- it’s a diverse bunch. I keep that in mind when I write: some people are on tight budgets while others think nothing of plunking down $200 for a bottle of wine. Some readers have eaten their way around the world while others might need me to explain what dim sum or tapas are." Joe-- wrt reviewing significant destination restaurants, I'm not sure how I feel about that--but frankly I'd rather he cover the changing scene here and not waste a week filling up a Magazine column by reviewing some destination restaurant elsewhere off of his turf that most of us will never ever go to. I'd rather he return more often to the "destination" restaurants here to see if they are mailing it in, become over-priced or if service has slipped. Other cities aren't his beat. I think I would like reading his review of a non-local restaurant if he could spin it in such a way as to be very relevant for our dining scene here. And since food and dining is so very local I just can't see too much merit in a one-shot review of any restaurant like this. So in that case I guess it didn't even register with me that he didn't review that Carolina place. His "Postcards" however are much better for us long term--that gets him out and about, are on his dime and his time, keeps him more current of what's going on in many more food cities--and undoubtedly helps him place what is going on here in DC in better context--perhaps in a better context than any other critic in any other city is capable of doing on their own beat. What I also might like to know instead is how Tom feels we (DC) stack up against Chicago or Boston or....and wouldn't mind a Magazine column one week devoted to a kind of researched, nuanced "state of the dining address in DC." Not a "Dining Guide" of his "favorites" but something more introspective. That would be better than wasting a week whether he liked some out of the way place on the North Carolina shore or whether Eve did. He said this about his postcards: "I pick cities based on a number of things: places that are seasonal (San Juan in winter), places that intrigue me (I just returned from Rome, where I had never been), places that readers have asked about (Vancouver) -- it depends. The neat thing is, Washingtonians travel a LOT and are interested in a variety of destinations, wherever they might be." Re-reading these quotes it seems more valid than ever that Sietsema is 1) doing the job he sets out to do very well--and 2) the job the paper feels he should be doing. That just leaves do 3) how we readers feel he is doing? In that respect, I'd ask how many obvious, higher end or new places has he NOT reviewed that he should have? Is there anything that he got completely wrong--something that should have been panned but wasn't? He also throws some surprises in there as far as choice--and he does so pretty timely. He certainly has accurately nailed every single new or worthy place in my "burb" neighborhood--Courthouse--Minhs, Singh Thai, Boulevard Woodgrill come to mind. While the "usual suspects" were still talking predictably about the usual suspects--like how great a Four Sisters in Eden Center was (and at one time it was the best Vietnamese our area had to offer)--Tom basically said these two new places, Minhs and Singh Thai--just might be doing the most flavorful, most interesting Viet or Thai cooking in the whole area. And it turns out they were then and still are! And he rightly praised Boulevard Woodgrill as the postive addition to the neighborhood and the value it is. I believe I only caught him once or twice not reviewing a significant place as soon as those kitchens merited a review--and that was Elysium and Le Relais. But even that timing is subjective. Is there a new "moderately-priced" restaurant he should have reviewed sooner than he did? I don't think so--he was all over Matchbox and seems all over Ella's and will undoubtedly be all over Dish. And such is the nature of a good critic to be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't--simultaneously.

This is an interesting thread. Joe, originally you said "SBC is very good but not AS good as Tom Sietsema implied. This is not DC Coast nor Kinkead's. Nor is it an incredible find as he implied." And then later you said "When you read his review of SBC carefully he wasn't as complimentary as I first thought. Much of it was value for money"--does that mean your position has evolved a bit after a re-reading of Sietsema's review? And though I haven't driven way out West to dine there, that's the sense I thought Sietsema conveyed in his review--here's a small chef-driven restaurant out in the burbs which offers a fair value and some interesting cooking. That you are lucky if you live way out there because you now have another worthy option in your backyard that isn't a chain, isn't ethnic AND it might just be worth a drive anyway if you don't live there. I didn't "sense" from his writing that he was over-praising the place--just praising it, helping to put someone clearly trying to do good work on the map--and if the Washington Post restaurant critics had done a better job of calling attention to the burbs longer ago--I'm going back 15 years--the dining scene outside the downtown core might be a little better today than it is--more restaurateurs and chefs might have been taken more chances to open more little places like this Cafe rather than subtly and not-so-subtly discouraged by lack of attention. There'd be more than the two-tier burb structure we now have: ethnic and cheap eats on the one hand, and over-priced conservative power dining that underwhelms compared to the over-priced conservative power dining downtown on the other. The burbs might be a little less than the chain and franchise hell it is. One good thing to come out of this thread is that, to me, it always seems more helpful to take food AND wine pricing as a package and not to make value judgements or base expectations on entree pricing alone. A ten dollar glass of an oaky chardonnay tends to devalue even the most reasonably-priced entree in the low teens. It seems you'd agree with this Joe, that there may be more "value" here than you initially considered--because you also say "Wine had approximately a 50% markup-if that much. A true bargain!" Which might seem to reinforce SBC as a better bargain overall, especially if the wine markups at the other places mentioned by way of comparison--a DC Coast, Kinkeads, Market Street Grill, etc-- would not nearly be so generous?

I'm waiting anxiously as well. Come on, eat dinner and then eat one of these things. Do tell. Any indication from the wrapper what the percentage of the different ingredients might be? Any way you can scan the other side of the wrapper for us?

Froggy, I'm not sure I agree. I'd ask if the Times got it right. Then like Craig I'd ask is this old news--and I'd probably say it isn't out there enough in the mainstream, where customers walk through aisles and look for WS ratings and award placards on the walls of restaurants and WS numbers on lists. But there is plenty of precedent for media covering other media aggressively--do we think revealing and/or investigative food and wine pieces should be exempt? Was exposing the Zagat's false or flawed methodologies a hit-piece? At first blush, this seems to me an article most eGulleteers would agree with and I bet most would wish the food sections around the country, the vast array of newspaper food editors and writers, would have the courage, support and skills to do something similar. Media criticism and analysis should apply to food and wine media, no?

Somewhat casual and good tasting menus but in what style Kevin? Most of the general advice you or cwyc need is already here in the forum. Are you looking for something more specific--or specifically in comparison to NYC? While much of what the usual suspects do here is perfectly fine--it's too often not at the competitve or interest level of NYC and too often dumbed down or supersized to suit the region's conservative power palate. Those few that hold up well on the high end, a Citronelle or Maestro, are beyond your price point. Without knowing more about you, my top food recommendation remains the brunch at Cafe Atlantico. It's what I turn to time and time again. Do the full tasting at $35 and revel in it. There's nothing comparable in DC or in NYC, especially for the price. If you're unfamiliar with South American wines, ask whoever is managing for guidance. You might also want to call ahead to see when Kats is cooking--since he ran Douglas Rodriguez's kitchen at Pipa, then did some great work at Verbena and spent a full season at El Bulli. (There aren't too many chefs working in NYC as good as Kats, by the way. I think he's a real under-rated rising star.) You guys could bond. I won't be around much this weekend. cwyc--Kaz is downtown, depending on what your definition of "downtown" includes. It's easily accessible in an area called Foggy Bottom, 1915 I Street. Nectar and Citronelle are relatively close by. Wherever you are, especially if you would be coming from the Sofitel, it's an easy walk, cab or Metro ride.

Initial glowing reviews aside, it still comes down to one on one interactions--with unknown diners--a whole slew of them built up over time. It never ceases to amaze me how good people skills, a gentle smile, an empathetic tone will always trump policy and procedure, whether an establishment uses OpenTable or not and whatever the reservation policy is, it always always comes back to people skills. How a phone call is answered, how one is greeted at the door, makes a lasting impression. Thanks for sharing that report saycheese, my guess is it was the end of a frustrating night for that guy. I hope it proves to be an aberration. Plus, just after a review hits is a stressful time for a restaurant.

wood--I've been in the San Diego area for a week doing pretty much nothing but eating and relaxing. I'm afraid you'd have to be a little more forthcoming with your experiences, your likes and dislikes, your frames of food reference, than just asking for generic list of the best. Plus when you say nothing trendy that scares me a bit because your trends are not necessarily my sense of trends. Good cooking belies trend. I'm not in a position to tell you about the best but I can strongly recommend a few of the restaurants I've been to this week--these restaurants are very strong, with interesting, eclectic wine lists and would stand out in any serious East coast food city. I recommend them highly and I hope the locals appreciate them: Cafe W in San Diego is an incredibly stylish value: food, wine, service and ambience. If I lived around here I would eat there very often (3680 6th Ave. 619.291.0200 www.cafe-w.com); I'd also return often to Meritage in Encinitas on 101 (703.634.3350 www.meritage1.com) and Roppongi in La Jolla (875 Prospect St. 858.551.5252). Googling them would turn up lots of info from the San Diego Tribune and other sources. You mentioned happy hour. Monday and Wednesday nights Meritage has wine lover's nights--with all bottles of wine at half price. They have a very fun, fairly priced list and also have low-stress "not a care in the world" seating on a very nice porch/patio. We did a lunch and dinner there since we're staying a few blocks away. Be sure to check out Chuao chocolatier in the same shopping center. Very very good chocolates completely unappreciated yet by the locals. When we were in the shop two different customers asked for fudge and then walked out. Might have been tourists. Roppongi is a serious, beautifully designed overtly stylish restaurant which just oozes chic from the walls and the clientele. As far as the food, while it might seem expensive, it's really not more expensive than any serious restaurant in any big food city and it was impeccable I thought--they know how to walk the fine dining CalAsian fusion line, the obligatory SoCal avocado is well-integrated, plus, they have a very nice deal daily--all of the tapas side of the menu is half-price from 4 to 6. Even that wonderful $18.95 Dungeness crab stack. Their list fairly predictable and Wine Spectatorish--we chose a nice food wine for the cuisine, the Adelsheim Pinot Gris at a higher-than-necessary but typical markup ($36.) Roppongi had the best dessert of the entire trip--a caramelized banana dish with ice cream and a hint of orange, served in a wide bowl covered with a thin disk of nougatine--which the server deftly breaks apart into shards tableside. Not bad considering the restaurant doesn't have a pastry chef--and you could tell just by reading the rest of the dessert menu--brownie this, vanilla ice cream that. This restaurant would be amazing (nationally) if it had a pastry chef or hired a pastry consultant, so their desserts matched the interest and inventiveness of the cuisine. I also did a bunch of the cheap but good fish taco Mexican-type stuff but you're probably not looking for a Las Olas or Juanitas Taco Shop or El Zarape recommendation. If you were you'd be better off wading through Chowhound. I wanted to go to Parallel 33, also in Mission Hills like Cafe W, which chef and writer friends recommended, but it was closed Sunday and Monday, which was when I could have fit it in.

Hi Andy: 1) a few minutes. also note you don't have to pacotize a whole beaker at a time, you can set it to do a portion of the beaker if that's all you need; 2) the release valve is a density thing--pressing it during the process and expelling the pressure allows you to get just a little fluffier texture, it allows for some more expansion.

Lesley, Kurt Walrath got his first big break walking into Le Cirque after arriving in NYC from Tennessee (I think) and telling Jacques he'd regret it if he didn't hire him. Jacques took him on and Kurt went on to become his right hand and then one of the best pastry chefs in NYC in his own right until he walked away from pastry and enrolled in RISD to get a degree, his first degree. He also found the best glass artist in the area and then walked into his shop and said let me work for you you won't regret it. He was hired and now Kurt has his RISD degree, got the practical experience all the while he was in school, now opened his own factory space and is doing amazing art glass. Your points are all true, and as we said previously one of the valuable things a good cooking school can do--most definitely an intensive 6 month career-changing one--is it can network you into the scene, it can help you get your foot in the door to get your first break. But the schools know that and it is a criminal amount of money to pay for some networking. I was in the kitchen of Le Cirque talking to Jacques years ago when he took a call from Nick Malgieri, the power that be at Peter Kump. They spoke in French. After they hung up Jacques said that was Nick, he only sends over his best student to me, he starts Monday. And Jacques had a steady stream of wannabees lined up at FCI, his program. Slkinsey--I agree with your "general" assessment of the short term career changing school and its effectiveness. The value that those students find in that experience is open to interpretation and can only really be determined in hindsight, after they've gone through it and can look back. That's why I am psyched we have several people on this thread either in schools like this, about to enroll, or in the case of beans, contemplating enrolling. It will be great for all of them to stay in touch and weigh back in. As far as the 2 to 4 year diploma/degree programs--the factories like a CIA or Johnson & Wales--it's mostly amateurs who attend, amateurs are their curriculum, young kids, teenagers going to these schools instead of going to college for business or liberal arts or whatever. There's a perfunctory "you have to have some restaurant work experience" before we allow you to start classes. I do not believe these schools allow any co-mingling of drop-ins because these schools are colleges. The students are all degree candidates. While these schools are expensive, there are options even for young kids that aren't as expensive--as Shaw mentioned earlier--in this "category" are fantastic culinary arts programs at say SUNY-Delhi and NYC Technical College, which is a part of CUNY. I've taught and worked with students at both campuses. $3,400 and $4,000 per year, respectively. I know four instructors and professors at the latter 2 schools and they are incredibly talented, incredibly committed and actually much more experienced teaching than most instructors at other professional programs. It pains me to see how much effort they expend on behalf of their students. Delhi tries to do the ACF-CIA wannabee thing; NYC Tech is French and decidely not ACF. The thing is, though, an older career changer, say Paul on this thread, or me ten years ago, wouldn't go to these schools because we don't fit their student profile: we've been to college, perhaps gotten a few degrees, we've had a career, perhaps a few, and their profile doesn't fit us: we wants to get into cooking as quickly as possible. We can taste it. Our choice is go to school or talk our way into a kitchen and start learning on the job. Our choice (and I'm simplifying this) is enroll at an FCI because an admired chef like a Dan Barber recommends it or we feel we have to OR just approach a chef like a Dan Barber and say "I'm moving to NYC and want to work in your kitchen for free. I'm smart, capable and hard-working, I'm bringing my family with me so you know I'm not a flake and I'm in it for the long haul. Give me a shot and you're under no obligation to keep me or pay me if it doesn't work out." Michael Laiskonis would probably add in here he'd recommend spending some tuition dollars for travelling immediately to see and eat the best in Paris and Spain and try to spend some stage time wherever you could over there. But that just going and exposing yourself to the elite could be mind and career-altering--in a way a cooking school never could be. That's the niche that FCI and other short term career professional programs have been built up for.

Lesley, don't you think more so than reading a resume or inquiring about a degree, what gets you into either Bras or Jean-Georges or any elite kitchen first and foremost is a personal phone call, a personal recommendation from an admired colleague? I mean, there's value to be considered in the abstract, then there's the value of someone sending you someone. That carries the most weight. And that might be a highly respected instructor at a school sending only his best student to you--or it might be the chef you've worked for calling on your behalf and helping you network. We can hypothesize, but if one elite chef calls up one of his buddies--even if they don't know each other that well--and says, hey, I'd like to send one of my guys to work for you for a while, do you think you can take him, what do you think will happen? So, taking that back to slkinsey's query about the relative value of 2 years of school versus 2 years of work--I'd say if you put those two years of work in at a top place, a Tru or Clio or Blue Hill--and a Rick Tramonto, a Ken Oringer or a Dan Barber would call on your behalf--I think generally experience plus the personal recommendation will be taken over school mostly every time. Keller calls up Tramonto, Trotter calls up Adria, it might even involve an intermediary chef who has an in--so chef A calls chef B to set up a position for one of chef A's guys with chef C, who chef A doesn't actually know. In the US, it's possible even less experience would trump even more school every time. I can't speak to how it works in Canada or in Europe, but the chefs here know their underlings need their recommendations--if they're thinking of moving on. It can be one of the implied and perhaps not-so-implied agreements between chef and his staff. Beside the money an elite chef is not going to be paying you for the privilege of working under him--you better bust your butt and then some so when you want to do a stage at "x" he'll call and recommend you. (Of course, the foodservice/hotel type positions here in the states which might stipulate a degree are a different story.)

Brian--in that first sauce of yours, how important is the quality of the vinegar, wine and butter to the resulting sauce? Or is the amount of the shallots so great you realistically can't taste the difference as long as you use "decent" stuff? For instance, what would you use at Fortes--and what would you use if you had a dinner only 75 seat restaurant? The same stuff?

I second Ruth in considering buying a small commercial model. I did a demo once in NYC and agreed to take as part of my compensation the oven that was brought in for my use: a beautiful, compact, countertop stainless steel convection oven from France called a Sodir. (Model FC34) Standard household electrical plug. Lots of restaurant suppliers have them because I've seen them all over, the sticker on the back of mine says it came from Equipex in Providence. I have seen models with built-in broilers as well. You'd probably be amazed at the number of little cafes and food service places that do the bulk of their "cooking" and heating up in these little devils. Lots of useable space yet small profile, heats up very quickly and the fan isn't that noisy. Dissipates heat quickly. Plus, did I say it was all stainless and beautiful? It's a nice counterpoint to my all stainless and beautiful espresso machine and its form factor doesn't stick out past the standard steel kitchen shelving I have it on. I haven't been to a used restaurant equipment auction in a while but I bet these can be had for a few hundred bucks. Depending on how often you plan to use it and for how many years, you might be able to make the case value-wise that it would be worth buying new.

Lesley--what about patisseries or coffee shops that stay open late?