rich

My new definitions: Tip equals "to insure promptness" logically equals before the fact because of the word insure. Bribe equals after the fact to make sure we get out of the resto alive. Simple, it works - we can move on now.

Become a taxi driver.

Does that mean when a place such as Per Se states there's a 22% service charge, they're asking you for a bribe because you're being told to tip before the fact? And what about those places where there's an 18% charge for parties of six or more? Are they asking you for a bribe? And how about a reception where the tip is added before the event - another bribe being asked? And finally, if tipping is after the fact, then what about the dirivitive of the word tip - "to insure promptness?" How can you insure anything after the fact? It seems to me the founding fathers of tip knew what they were doing - show the people the money and get the best service. All others beware. As many people said on a tipping thread a few months back - being a professional waiter/waitress is one of the few professions (and possibly only) where people get to decide a salary after the service has been performed via the tip or bribe or feudal stipend. It seems we got it backwards. Maybe we should change the menu to read "... a 20% bribe will be added to your bill because we can't insure anything our wait staff does - so no tipping allowed."

You obviously never met my wife.

Seriously, I'm not sure what you mean by the first sentence. Actually was a dishwasher in high school. Saw many chefs and other help have a drink or two while they were working. Why would that be a problem (unless they got drunk - but I never witnessed that)?

So then, accrding to the above, I did bribe the person at Per Se. My friend did bribe the cook at Opa. I did bribe my wife by giving her a ring before we were married. And all those people who buy things on ebay are bribing the seller.

It's a bribe because you're asking him to do something illegal. Bribery is against the law, according to the legal definition. Asking for a better table, better service, better parking spot, watching your car, cleaning your carpets, shining your shoes, mowing your lawn, examining your bird, getting rid of the trash - not bribes - tips. However asking to get rid of the body - that's a bribe. Before you legal beagles go crazy, I realize the word "bribe" in and of itself is not always illegal. But it has come to mean that in our everyday language and that's what I'm referring to here - the connotation of the word, not its official definition.

I'm not tipping someone so another person gets a bad table, someone is going to get that table whether I tip or not. I'm making sure that someone isn't me. And sometimes, depending on the situation, I would take that table. I don't recall in 35 plus years of restaurant going, someone jumping a line. It is rare when you see a line in front of a host/hostess anyway. What has happended - you may show up without a reservation and ask for table with a tip, knowing it's a very crowded night. Under those circumstances you would get a table before other people who didn't have a reservation. And I don't see anything wrong with that - money does make the world go around. I don't consider that jumping a line, it's good business based on supply/demand. But under no circumstances are these bribes, they are tips. To call them bribes is a disservice to people who work long hours in the restaurant industry.

If you're seated next to the rest room (and it's obviously a crappy table) it's going to be pretty obvious that you're going "economy" whether prices are posted or not, isn't it? ← Not true at all - sometimes people are seated there and just accept it. If they say nothing, that's where they'll stay. And their bill could run very high and they might tip 25-30 percent. And sometimes people accept it because the restaurant is truly full and they choose not to wait for a better table. The problem I have with this whole thread are the terms tipping and bribery, which was regrettably used in the title. Unfortunately, people are using the terms interchangeably. They are totally different. A bribe is an illegal extortion of money for a favor/service. A tip is given freely to someone for a favor/service and is not illegal. When I tip a host/hostess, I have a specific reason and will make that reason known. And no other patrons will ever know because it's done privately, discreetly and without fanfare (and there are many, many ways of doing this). That's a big difference than being the victim of bribery. And yes it occurs at Per Se too. When I was there, it was our 25th Wedding Anniversary. Since they knew this already because they asked on the phone if it was a special occasion, I discreetly handed the appropriate person $50 when I entered and said thank you for asking and appreciated the special treatment and requested table. No one else knew - not even my wife. I was thanking them in advance to guarantee those "special" services and to show my appreciation - my choice, my $50 to do with as I please. Would I have gotten the same service without the $50? Probably, but on this occasion, I chose not to take the chance. If I walk into a restaurant and ask how long a wait it is for a table and am told an hour, but for $50 you can be seated right away - that's bribery. Let's not confuse the two terms.

If you waited to do that when the experience was really great, then how were you treated like royalty? - unless you returned again. And that would be difficult if you were just visiting or vacationing in a city. Wouldn't you want to be treated like royalty that night? So why not send the drinks (reserved until after closing if you choose) when you first arrived? And how is that different than money, which they may have appreciated more - especially if some are non-drinkers? I have a friend who always buys the cook a bootle of Harp as soon as he enters (and one or two more during the evening) this little Greek place in Hallandale, FL - Opa. And he gets treated like royalty - luckily I was there for the carriage ride.

Please take my word on this based on years of experience - if you make a transaction, secret or not, you won't be seated next to the rest rooms. Unless of course the rest rooms are huge and all the tables are next to them. However if it's posted what tables cost and you wind up next to the rest room - everyone will know you decided to go "economy." Hence the problem with posting table rates in restaurants.

The perfect example of situational morality that I mentioned above.

What about the customers who can't afford to eat out more than once a year - for a special occasion? Think of how they would feel? I don't think if everybody knows what the next person pays solves anything. In fact, it could create more problems. At least if it's done as a private transaction, there's no sense of embarrassment to the people who can't afford the premium table. It could make for an uncomfortable start to the evening, as in "Gee, honey why couldn't we afford to sit anywhere else but next to the rest rooms? Is that what you think of me?" And please don't compare this to seating in the theater or at a sporting event - dinner is a much more personal one on one or small group experience. Let me relate one of my first "tip" stories. It was February of 1970 (before baseball season started) on mid-winter break from college and I was 19. My girlfriend and I decided to go to San Francisco and then rented car (easier for under 25 in those days) after a few days and drove to Lake Tahoe. We stayed at Harrah's and Don Rickles was performing. She was a huge Rickles fan so I made reservations for the dinner and show. When we arrived I (privately) gave the host $20 and asked for the best availbale table. Now granted, $20 in 1970 was worth a lot more than it is today, but he sat us next to the stage. Believe me, I never expected that. We had a decent dinner and the show was terrific - Rickles actually brought me up on stage. My girlfriend was totally impressed (so was I - that $20 got me what it did) and we had a great and memorable evening. Did I offend anyone? Did I act immorally? Was the host immoral? Did anyone else feel slighted or embarrassed? I can safely say that I believe "no" is the answer to those questions. Did he report the tip to the IRS? Probably not, but the taxes on it were eventually paid. Economics teaches us that money in the pocket is money that will eventually be spent and taxes will be collected on it - that's one of the reasons why the government (any government) doesn't come down too hard (unless you get totally greedy) on tipping income. They realize its importance to the economy and cash flow.

I think the reason the bill is "hidden" is to be subtle, and to not display the crass and boring personality that Mayhaw so eloquently described. If the person is in charge of seating or parking, then yes they can "sell" it - or sit, park people based on their experience. This is done is every business from the post office to gas prices. If you want to get your package delivered sooner, you pay a premium. If you want high test gas to make your car run better, you pay a premiun. The only difference is that it's posted and the money (in theory) doesn't go to one individual. Maybe restaurants should post how much it would cost to get a premium table or to have less of a wait instead of trying to sell me water. Or parking lots should post what the premium is for getting a front space or on the first floor. But I'm sure that would cause another set of problems. As far as taxes, you would need to ask each invidual who ever accepted a tip. But before you get too caught up in that, let's remember if it wasn't for the underground economy, the world economy would be in a lot worse shape than it is. That's not me talking, that what the large majority of economists believe - and they have the data.

Pan, you believe bribery isn't necessary in this country? Spend a month in Washington and then get back to me. ← Rich, you just don't understand. When there are military roadblocks in New Jersey that exist for the sole purpose of extorting monthly bribes from taxi drivers whose licenses would be confiscated otherwise, come back and talk to me. Oh, are their salaries and working conditions so bad? Perhaps they'd prefer to go in the back and wash the dishes? Again, you just don't understand. There are countries where everything, everything requires a bribe or nepotism. To a quite significant extent, you're right that it's true in the US, as well, but for you to argue that it's moral, well, I can only say that some people will rationalize anything. [Edited to make the post less political] ← We can both site extremes to make our points, that's not the issue. Exchanging of goods (and yes sometimes that means hard cash) for services has been going on since man learned how to stand. Your military example occurs in many countries, but we do things here that are equally oppressive, albeit more subtle - but this isn't the forum for politics. As for morality - yes anyone can justify anything, but the reality is we all practice situational morality. By that I mean, there are things that offend a person some of the time and not others depending on familiarity, place, whether we are alone or not and mental state. I'm offended when a restaurant attempts to "hard" sell me water as soon as I sit down and, if accepted, they keep bringing bottles without asking to pad the bill - I think that's immoral, some people don't care. I don't think it's immoral to offer someone money for a better table, a better spot in the parking lot etc. etc. That's a choice I make freely. If the person accepts, fine (and that's not immoral either because all they're doing is exchanging a service for goods - in this case money), if they don't, that's fine as well.

Pan, you believe bribery isn't necessary in this country? Spend a month in Washington and then get back to me. Again it's not just money, there are other ways. There would be no maitre d's left. And let's face it, it's the word "bribe" that's the issue here. The reality - it's not a bribe, it's simply "the cost of doing business."

Therese, you may not know that you do, but you do.

In the real world bribery is not only moral but necessary - and it's not always money that changes hands. A favor here, an offer there...it's what makes the world go around.

It's a regular occurence. I've done it all my life when necessary. It's amazing how far a ten, twenty or fifty will go depending on the circumstances. It's also great in parking lots when you want your car up front to avoid traffic jams and long waits when everyone is leaving at the same time. Just part of supply/demand economics.

Saratoga Springs, NY - a few excellent restos, great downtown walking area, the spas, SPAC, golf, tennis, the Lake, antiquing, Revolutionary Battle Grounds, the racetrack - no racing but the horses work in the morning in the most beautiful place for horses on earth. About three hours north of the city on I-87. Once you go, you'll go back many times. Stay in a B&B - Chestnut Tree Inn is the best in my opinion - (518) 587-8681. Tell them I recommended you. You can't ask for much else.

Hi Rax. I wish I knew you were an eGullet member, it could have led to a more interesting conversation. And I might add the service was professional, friendly and enjoyable - I'm also referring to other wait-staff members who served tables around us. Great job on the wine list. You should be proud of Marlowe's - it's a great place. We will see you soon - that I promise.

I see askmen.com also had Lyon and not Paris. Bravo to them too.

Any list that omits Paris and includes Lyon knows exactly what they're doing. Bravo to MSNBC for having the gumption to publicly say so. It's about time someone did. Surprised they included both New York and Tokyo. They're really the same city except New York has more Japanese restos.

Same sign as Friday, but a new development. There was a bread delivery sitting outside the shop at 8:45 this morning. If there's bread, it may be opening today.

Does anyone know where cheese made from crap is available?