rich

One of the best marketing names came from an old Sebastiani wine - "Eye of the Swan." It was a very nice, refreshing Pinot Noir Blanc - very good summer wine. I haven't seen it recently, don't know if they still make it.

I get the distinct impression you didn't enjoy the restaurant.

Glad to hear they're coming back. I first ate there in 1978 - one of the top 20 meals ever.

Is that about $10 million a star? Makes Del Posto's $4 million a star sound like a bargain.

Seems to strengthen my point (made in several other NYC restaurant threads). The problem with most, if not all, Manhattan Italian restos is they try to be something other than Italian. They put things on their menus that have no business being there. Italian cuisine is terrific as is. There's no need to gimmick it up. I'll go back to my original statement - the best NYC Italians exist in the outer boroughs (sans Staten Island). They don't seem to be as pretentious or self-conscious there. Outer boroughs are more proud of their Italian heritage and roots. Manhattan types try, for the most part, to be all things to all people and lose something in the translation. Maybe it's just an economic thing - higher expenses (rent especially) cause them cast a wider net and they fall into the "something for everyone" type of menu.

Did you have wine or was it so overpriced that you opted to pass? I know you were snookered but do you remember an example of wine rape? ← OF COURSE I had wine. As I recall through the hazy cocktail mist, it was about $145 for a Marcel Deiss Alsatian riesling. ← Nice wine, but at about a 650% markup, the wine should have cleared the table and drove you home.

Did you have wine or was it so overpriced that you opted to pass? I know you were snookered but do you remember an example of wine rape?

Do you want to stay in Manhattan or are you in the mood to be adventurous and head into Queens for something really different? If so, drop by Sapori d'Ischia in Woodside - as close to the real thing in NYC as you can get. Not fancy, but outstanding food and pasta - and a pure Italian wine list. Anyone who knows anything about quality Italian food eventually winds up there. If you're looking to stay in Manhattan, most of the Italians are average to somewhat above average. It depends how upscale you want to go. There's always L'Impero, Alto, Babbo, Felidia, Del Posto (if you want to burn some real money)or Lupa. None of those will set your world on fire, but they'll take your money and the food will range from okay to good. Some rise above that, but all have their own version on what's really Italian - some will even tell you they cook in the Italian Hudson Valley style?????? In my mind the city's best Italians are in the outer boroughs. If I was set on staying in Manhattan I'd choose WD-50, Landmarc, Blue Hill, Tasting Room, Cru or Mesa Grill. That's a wide selection and all very different, but all have terrific food and some even have a bit of ambiance. Italians in Manhattan just don't measure up to what they should. ← Hi, Rich!!! I just find it interesting that you believe the best Italians are in the other boroughs. My experience has been the opposite. Honestly, I cannot speak very well for Queens and the Bronx. But, Brooklyn and Staten Island??? Perhaps there are 1 or 2 notable places in Brooklyn - "Al di La'" being one of them. And, honestly, they don't exactly entice me to cross over the bridge... There are enough similar restaurants in Manhattan that do the same thing better. And, as for Staten Island (from which I hail) it is a gastronomic wasteland. It is so disheartening for me that, in a borough where the majority of the population is of Italian descent, the only Italian restaurants you find are the red sauce ones doing the same schtick - parmigiano, veal piccata, marsala, milanese, sorrentino, etc. etc. People are not interested in anything even remotely authentic...all they want is lots of food...and cheap. As far as I'm concerned, that's one borough that is light years away from any Italian restaurant in the city. ← Hi Theresa - welcome to eGullet! Having lived in Staten Island for 27 years, I can't agree more. The only Italian worth mentioning, (and it was much better when it first re-opened about 2-3 years ago) is Bacco on Hylan Blvd (however it still has one of the city's top and most reasonable wine lists). In fact, it's the only Staten Island restaurant worth mentioning now that Aesop's Tables has changed hands. But as far as the other boroughs are concerned Roberto's in the Bronx, Sapori, L'incontro and Park Side in Queens and Al di La and Locanda Vini in Brooklyn do some fabulous stuff. I would go to any of those before heading to a Manhattan Italian if I was in the mood for an "Italy fix." They just give you more of an Italian feel. But of those, Sapori stands out -if you haven't tried, you should - it's in a category all its own. You're probably looking at my last name and asking what do I know about an Italian feel? My mom's Italian on both sides and my father is half Italian and I was raised in my grandparents home who were both born and raised in Italy. And I still have many relatives who live in Italy. But the bottom line is those are simply my preferences in eating Italian food out. I do a much better job than any of them when I cook at home. Your place is fine, nothing negative - you do a good, attractive job at very fair prices. I believe I mentioned it above in the six or so places in my post. If I lived in Manhattan, I would go more. But when I'm trekking into Manhattan, it wouldn't be one on my top choices, but I wouldn't make a special trip into Manhattan for any Italian resto. But after all is said and done - you're absolutely correct about Staten Island - all most people want are large portions of veal parm with globs of ziti and fake tomato sauce. But remember most of those SIer's orginally came from Brooklyn, so what to they know? Just joking (I don't want all you Brooklynites getting heart flutters). I least I was born and raised in Queens and then did a stint in Manhattan before moving to the gastronomic wasteland.

The best part about NYC Italians, is that it's very hard to find a really bad one. It's just what you're looking for, your budget and how fussy you are about eating in a place with an Italian feel to it.

Yes, I think so. I've eaten in all the others except Del Posto and while all are very good in their own way, I think Sapori comes closest to the taste of Italy - especially within the specific area of Italy that it's named after. We all have our preferences, but given the choice I would go there before anything in Manhattan. I've gotten that reaction about Mesa Grill from a few people, but I disagree. I wonder how much of the negative vibe is because most people don't care for its owner. I have always had very good meals there. I don't think anyone in NYC comes close to Mesa for southwestern food. On the other hand, I feel the way you do (g-d awful) about his other place (not Bolo) - Bar Americain.

Do you want to stay in Manhattan or are you in the mood to be adventurous and head into Queens for something really different? If so, drop by Sapori d'Ischia in Woodside - as close to the real thing in NYC as you can get. Not fancy, but outstanding food and pasta - and a pure Italian wine list. Anyone who knows anything about quality Italian food eventually winds up there. If you're looking to stay in Manhattan, most of the Italians are average to somewhat above average. It depends how upscale you want to go. There's always L'Impero, Alto, Babbo, Felidia, Del Posto (if you want to burn some real money)or Lupa. None of those will set your world on fire, but they'll take your money and the food will range from okay to good. Some rise above that, but all have their own version on what's really Italian - some will even tell you they cook in the Italian Hudson Valley style?????? In my mind the city's best Italians are in the outer boroughs. If I was set on staying in Manhattan I'd choose WD-50, Landmarc, Blue Hill, Tasting Room, Cru or Mesa Grill. That's a wide selection and all very different, but all have terrific food and some even have a bit of ambiance. Italians in Manhattan just don't measure up to what they should.

I couldn't agree more, Marc. It was the most meaningless review he has written in a long time. Twelve of the 20 paragraphs are devoted to Jackie Kennedy, over-sized urinals and cardio-vascular exercise while heading to the bathrooms. It's time NY Times and long overdue; it's time... for a change - please, before your hallowed halls become mere alleyways to oblivion.

El Coyote??? If it was, they had one good dish - Carnitas con Tortillas. I've tried, but have never been able to duplicate their version. It was the only good item on their menu - but it was very, very good.

The Duck Joint (its full name) was one of my favorite restaurants in the 70's. It was located on First Ave between 73-74 Streets. It was owned or partially owned by Sonja Heinie - the Olympic skater. Great duck and goose with the best red cabbage I ever ate. But the best part was sitting at the bar with a pilsner and eating the complimentary goose/duck liver pate with crisp toast points. I never made a reservation because I enjoyed the pate so much, it didn't matter how long it took to be seated. It probably has been closed for more than 20 years now - they actually ran into trouble with Con Edison over a huge bill and shut down.

It could have been Dodin Bouffant or Quilted Girraffe...they were both very good and very pricey for the time. ← Could have been, but more likely it was The Palace located in the shadows of the 59th Street Bridge. It was very expensive and a mandatory 23% tip was added - 15 to the waiter, 5 to the captain and 3 to the wine steward. The average dinner for two was in the $350 range - very pricey for 1980. (I actually ate there in February, 1979.)

By what standard? The Times 4-star? New York Magazine 5-star? Michelin 3-star? Zagat 30-star? I forget the on line group's 20-star? Your own stars? The Staten Island Advance 6-star? The Daily News 4-star? (1/2 allowed) The NY Post no-star? New Yorker magazine no-star? Crain's New York 4-star? (1/2 allowed) Bastianich/Batali mega-star? Brooklyn Eagle 10-star? Astoria Penny Saver 5-star? St. John's University Storm Stars? International Herlald Tribune 3-star (1/4 allowed)? The Farmer's Almanac 7-asterik system? Each one has its own merits and I didn't even go into the critics who award toques, snouts, spoons, ears, cups, feet, checkered napkins or teeth. Personally, the moment I sit down at a restaurant, I get out my book and begin adding or subtracting tusks. I work on the 100-point must system (much as they do in scoring prize fights). Sometimes I get so caught up in marking the restaurant's score, I never get to eat - that really throws off the final tally. Methinks, this whole thing has become silly. Is it so terrible to eat at restaurant and either enjoy it or not. And then decide to go back or not based on the enjoyment/cost ratio. Does anything else really matter?

Do you notice how all these things keep going back to that silly, archaic star system? Thank God for Steve Cuozzo. Thank God for the New Yorker magazine. But there's no one to thank that's still breathing for the star system - thank God.

I used to know things, but not anymore.

Interesting comment. Maybe eGullet could splinter off a wholly-owned PR subsidiary. We would have a staff of more than 30,000 to start. I'm not joking. I think the Society would make a terrific Restaurant PR firm and generate some money at the same time. As a lawyer Steve, you could make this work.

I'm afraid I don't see a difference in philosophy. When Bruni was asked if there are restaurants he's reviewed that have already changed enough that his rating would be different today, he said on his blog: This is not a whole lot different than Ruch Reichl's answer to a very similar question when she participated in an eGullet Q&A. ← Okay, he says that in one sentence then says this in another - taken from one of your posts the "Beyond" thread and I believe the quote was from his recent blog, "...Bruni also concludes (as against Steve Cuozzo of the Post) that star ratings generally—if not always—remain reasonably valid over a long period of time." Seems to me, the current NY Times critic speaks with forked tongue. Must have attended the same school as Barry Bonds.

Two reviewers (Reichl and the current person), two different philosphies. Reichl seems to be agreeing with Cuozzo in saying restaurants can and do change. The current person seems to indicate the stars generally remain the same over time. It will be interesting to read his first re-review to determine his real stance. As an aside, his review today was very positive and read better than a one. Plus - how can you dislike a review that references Julie Andrews even if it mentions his dining partner needed three drinks to get through a rough day.

Okay, I agree with that part, and have all along. What I maintain, however, is that Del Posto was doing behind the scenes the same things all major new restaurants do. The mistake was talking about it on the Food Network, instead of letting the food do the talking for itself. ← I'm sure they were. The only area we seem to differ is whether or not it affected the food. I think there's a possibility the four-star obsession may have caused them to lose some focus on the food. From earlier posts, you don't seem to think that's probable. Neither of us will ever know the truth and I think either scenario is viable.

Marc, they were different because of the arrogance as Vaudouvan mentioned. People, whether critics or the public, have memories. What may have been overlooked by some does not get overlooked when dealing with a person or group of persons who is/are full of bluster. New York Yankee owner George Steinbrenner had/has the same problem and a publicist (Rubenstein) was hired to be his mouthpiece a few years back. As Steve mentioned, no top-notch PR firm would have allowed the Del Posto group to "four-star vocalize" in the manner the Del Posto group did. It invites trouble and picky reviews. Either they didn't listen or they hired a bad group or they just did it all on their own. Whatever the case, it did them a lot more harm than good. That's the problem as I have observed. Now it's time for them to get humble, focus on the food, drop the pretentiousness and get back to what they do best - quality food in pleasant surroundings. The past can't be fixed or erased, but they control their present and future attitude and behavior.

That kind of thinking is much too sound to work. I think the people at Del Posto could have used that advice - instead they let their PR machine get in the way. Hopefully the management will shift gears after the early reviews.

So if Del Posto fired Batali and replaced him with....say Lidia???? ← Mark Ladner is officially the chef at Del Posto. ← Now it makes sense. How can a person with a non-Italian surname be expected to prepare Italian food? If he's the chef - what do they call Batali? The Pope? Or just "Papa?"