devlin

Any idea what made it different? And what's the green/herb there? ← the 'green herb' is actually lime zest. ← Sheez, I should have guessed. And that would explain a lot.

You could just mix the stuff up and refresh as usual. But if I were you, and I had a culture that had been sitting around inactive for some time, I'd want to give it a wash first, maybe even for several days in a row, before starting back up as usual. The way you'd do that is to mix what you have very thoroughly, dump everything except 1 cup of the culture (or keep some in reserve just in case), add a couple cups warm water (roughly 80-85 degrees) and mix thoroughly, then dump everything but one cup once again, feed as usual (I use 3/4 cup water and 1 cup flour), stir very vigorously once again and then proof for 6 to 12 hours. I learned this from Ed Wood's Classic Sourdoughs, and it works beautifully. If I'm on a baking hiatus, for example, and the culture's been sitting for awhile, or even if I've simply been refreshing and baking as usual over the course of many months, the culture often becomes more overpowering in flavor or more acidic or more sour than I'd prefer, and so I routinely wash my culture to restore it to a softer, lovelier, "breadier" smelling thing. And actually, I'll repeat that procedure for several days in a row before I simply go back to refreshing as usual. Don't despair if the culture appears weak for a couple of weeks. That's normal.

Any idea what made it different? And what's the green/herb there?

Just wanted to briefly make a note and then come back to respond (I'm on my way out the door and won't be back til late). First, I'd hope that we can all engage in discussions here without snarkiness and defensiveness. My impression from the original question was that the point was to get some feedback from people who work very concentratatedly (and maybe even almost solely) with sourdoughs, and you were interested in getting our feedback. That's what I'm offering. My feedback, which is based on many years experience with making breads, starting out with several years working only with commercial yeast, and then, because I wasn't satisfied with that, moving on to working almost exclusively with sourdough. And because it wasn't clear from your original message what sort of experience you have with that, I asked questions and offered my own impressions of a few things. Certainly it wasn't an entire treatise or book-length exploration of the subject, but I'm assuming we all know that's the case. I would never tell a person they are absolutely wrong to do one thing as opposed to another. I would, though, suggest my own preference for a thing, and my impressions of how others approach it. I think it's pretty widely known that sourdough remains a mystery to a lot of people who'd like to know more. And it's also the case that many people here engage in sourdough conversations with the goal of learning more and that they are a little intimidated by the whole process. I approached your original message in that spirit. Anyway, I have to run for now.

Well golly, pardon me for asking an honest question. I don't quite get the need for the tone of this response. I asked several questions and noted some observations I've made from engaging in exactly this issue with people over the years. It's really as simple as that. I have many years experience with bread baking, including breads using commercial yeast. I happen to prefer breads without commercial yeast, and I didn't simply stop making them because I couldn't get a good tasting bread. I'm not sure why you'd even suggest that, except that it sounded as if you simply felt you need to zing me somehow. That's unfortunate. I also have my own artisan bread business, and I learned how to make all kinds of breads using many methods over several years. I finally decided I prefer a bread that's naturally leavened. I said that, didn't I? Yes, I did say that.... So, anyway.... As I worked with that leaven, refreshing it once and twice daily for some time now, it has become more reliable and has a much richer flavor than it did when I started it. I also know how to use it in ways that yield different flavors and strengths. I prefer the flavor of a good natural leaven to breads made with commercial yeast. Not just my own, but any bread that uses commercial yeast. I'm hyper sensitive to the flavor of commercial yeast, and I don't like it. Again, not just in breads I make, but breads I get everywhere, and I eat a lot of bread. I didn't call anybody to task for their personal preferences, I simply stated my own in the spirit of the question that generated this thread. I think that's acceptable. Apparently you don't (unless it's your own, I guess, given your response). And, in keeping with the spirit of the question, it seems to me it would surely be acceptable to state a preference, yeah? Not to mention it appears that Calvel is making precisely the same distinction, noting that some people may prefer one thing over another (your own quote, that one will have a slightly more acidic flavor and the other a more delicate one, yeah?). So what's the problem? There's clearly a difference. And there are clearly quite a lot of people who really are anxious about the whole sourdough process and who would like to get some clarification and some instruction about that. I don't see anything wrong with that, and it seemed to me (maybe I was mistaken) that that was the purpose of the original question which generated the thread. So, sorry if I sound a little pissed in response, and perhaps you simply misunderstood my own response here. My intent in engaging in this particular thread was simply to offer help if it was needed, and to offer my own observations, which, by the way, the original message asked for. Again, my apologies. But it was my impression that the original question here asked very specifically what people's sensibilities might be regarding using commercial yeast together with a sourdough culture, which is precisely what I rseponded to, and not in a snotty way either, just merely by offering my own observations and trying to get a little clarification by asking questions about the experience of the author of the thread, who, by the way, didn't make that clear from the beginning, which is why I asked. The Village Bakery

If it's possible, I felt it came out more like a conventional commercial sourdough bread, with some "yeast character enhancement." ← Can you say a little more about your sourdough culture and how you manage and use it? How do you maintain it? How long have you had it? How often do you feed? And how do you prep for building the dough (do you use a preferment and for what period of time, for example)? Also, once your final dough is mixed, how do you handle it? What's your general way of handling or letting sit to proof and for how long? That sort of thing.... eta: I understand the desire to use commercial yeast, even in tiny amounts, and I've done it myself (and many of Hamelman's formulas use it, as other well-known bakers who've authored books do). But I really can't stress enough, or I don't think I can without maybe finally sounding pushy, that finally just learning how to use the sourdough alone and doing away with the commercial yeast isn't any more difficult in the long run than using commercial yeast. I finally came to see commercial yeast as a crutch because I was nervous about the natural leavening process and hadn't learned completely how to handle the culture during baking and during the resting periods. Once I figured that out, I threw away my yeast and I've never gone back to it. The rare times I've tried a new bread with commercial yeast, I've really not liked the results or the flavor. It may be an acquired thing, but it also may have something to do with the maturity of your sourdough culture and handling over time.

Get some good crackers (stone-ground wheat things, or garlic bagel chips, or really any cracker you like), spread with the boursin, top with smoked salmon. Makes a fabulous, easy lunch or snack or hors d'oeuvre.

(I'm coming out of lurkdom to say) I completely agree. Professor Raymond Calvel says, in The Taste of Bread (p. 41): ← I'm not qute sure I understand this. But perhaps the quotation here is taken too much out of context and there isn't quite enough information provided to understand completely. In itself, it doesn't really explain the difference between what Calvel is describing and a true sourdough. Maybe I'm missing something. Anyway, yes, it's standard for many many professional bakers to add a bit of commercial yeast to their sourdoughs, and even more standard, I think, for people who mistrust or are fearful of the sourdough process to use commercial yeast. It's a safeguard, I think, having done it that way myself for awhile. It provides a sort of safety net for not having a really good grasp of how your doughs work. I think people use it because they don't really know what to expect or how to read their doughs. And so because they want everything to be more or less predictable from the git-go, they use commercial yeast, just to be safe. Otherwise, will the dough made from a sourdough culture really rise? Will it behave properly within the time frame they've learned from working with doughs using commercial yeast? It's all so iffy and loosey goosey, at least while you're learning. So, easier to throw in some commercial yeast, just to be sure. From my own experience, it's absolutely not the case that a sourdough bread with commercial yeast is more flavorful than a straight sourdough. And in fact, I'd say just the reverse. It may be a case, rather, that one has developed a preference over the years for the particular flavor that commercial yeast yields. I understand that. I used to feel that way as well. I don't today. And in fact I don't really like the flavor of breads with commercial yeast and prefer straight sourdoughs altogether. At the same time, what you're describing with your own experience may have something to do with your own sourdough culture, its maturity, the way you care for it and so forth. Is it a new culture? Have you used it for long? How often do you refresh it? Those sorts of issues will have a huge influence on the flavor of your sourdough breads.

Rather than using rosemary itself, try frying an omelet or eggs in a mixture of butter and an herbed rosemary olive oil. It's lovely. ← I also think thyme is wonderful with eggs, particularly in the egg and breadcrumb recipe from The Zuni Cafe cookbook. That is hands-down my favorite egg-for-breakfast recipe. ← I get sort of cranky if I'm out of rosemary or rosemary olive oil and have to make an omelet without it. My favorite omelet: a schmear of sour cream, a little goat cheese, chives, a little parmesan, cooked in a rosemary infused olive oil and a smidge of butter. Or if I just want to be really fast, a scrambled affair of all of the above.

Rather than using rosemary itself, try frying an omelet or eggs in a mixture of butter and an herbed rosemary olive oil. It's lovely.

Well, yes (regarding flour and water = sourdough), but it's not quite as simple as just leaving a mix of flour and water sitting around for a few days and voila! So, yes and no. It would be nice if it were that easy. And even once it's up and working, a culture's a thing that has to be maintained to keep its viability. I know some folks who use a sourdough culture don't maintain it as much as I do mine (and I haven't always either), but for me, I get my best and most consistent results with a sourdough culture when I take very consistent care of it, especially a week or more in advance, feeding once and twice a day, and even more especially if it's been sitting in the refrigerator for awhile with no feeding at all.

There may be some basic misunderstanding of the term "yeast" here as well. As folks who work with sourdough/natural leavening know, the purpose of building a sourdough culture (which is the "yeast" in a sourdough) is sort of two-fold, both to build a culture (the natural yeast) and, depending on how the culture is developed, to develop flavor. Without yeast (either natural or commercial), you get quick or sweet breads that often depend on soda or baking powder for their rise and which depend on other ingredients for depth of flavor (Irish soda bread, for example, or banana bread). You won't get the sort of open crumb that most of us look for, and the breads tend to have a fairly dense crumb.

To add to the suggestions already offered, when you're loading your boule onto the peel, set the peel just alongside the boule and use the opposite side of the couche (the fold or the edge) to flip the boule onto the peel. Another option is to use a flipping board (scroll down for pic and price, nothing on the page is hotlinked). It's also perfectly kosher to proof seam side down and then to use a flipping board to move the boule from the couche to your peel. Because I bake anywhere from 40-60 loaves at a time, and load 2-3 boules on a peel at a time, that method works best for me. With that method, you proof seam side down, flip the boule onto the flipping board and then turn the boule out onto the peel to load.

... When I first made lean artisanal breads, my doughs were very sticky, really unhandleable. Over the years I've learned to sacrifice some wetness for a dough that's easier to handle and shape. The breads still turn out well. ← Thanks for the advice. I don't bake that often, but when I do I usually aim for (but never reach..) that perfect artisanal sourdough bread. I actually did my fist sourdough-only bread the other week following jackals excellent tutorial here on eGullet. Turned out pretty well, but not perfect. A slightly sour/off smell when baking, a little bit too flat and not enough large holes in the crumb. Taste and texture was good though. ← Perhaps they were over proofed?

My doughs are generally very wet as well, and as a rule I shape my breads using two bench scrapers. It works really well, once you get the hang of it.

Start asking around locally. The good deals are hard to find, and probably aren't advertised. Auctions are one option. I found my 30 quart, 35 year old hobart mixer in an old barn. A friend told me about a guy living in the area, way out in the middle of nowhere, two barnsful of used restaurant equipment. Mixers of every size literally up in the rafters, the barns crammed full of stuff, the back pasture adrift with warming tables, ovens, stuff I couldn't even identify. I paid $900 with a guarantee of service and a replacement for the duration of repair, should I need it and he delivered it too. I suspect there are guys like this all over the country, only they don't advertise. Not easy to find, but worth it when you do. I'd looked around at all the used restaurant equipment places, gone to a couple of auction operations, spent a few months checking out ebay, but this was by far the best deal I found. I love my mixer.

A levain is simply one French version of a naturally leavened bread. The temperature of the water isn't its chief characteristic, it's the natural leavening and the relative water content (high). Typically, though, when you're working with a natural leaven (sourdough culture), you let it break up and distribute in water before you add the flour, which is why the instruction would have you drop a ball of it into water (warm or not), very much like the method used when dissolving commercial yeast in water. If you're using commercial yeast, though, strictly speaking, it's not an authentic levain.

To add a couple of notes about ricotta, which I make frequently.... Many recipes call for about a cup of heavy cream as well (in addition to the milk), which is how I always make it. You may also substitute some or all of the milk with buttermilk for a way tangier ricotta. My ricotta of choice, though, is made with goat milk and heavy cream. Made exactly as noted above. You might want to stir in a little bit of salt once it's finished. It's so good I have to resist just eating it up bit by bit once it's chilled.

Just a short note about rising times.... Rising times are guidelines. It's not like baking a cake which if someone says it takes 30 minutes you can safely assume, all things being equal, it will take 30 minutes, give or take 5 minutes, maybe. But with bread, so many factors are at work, including the temp of your water, the type of yeast, the type of flour, the percentage of water, the temperature of your kitchen, etc. There really is no way somebody will be able to tell you absolutely how long it will take to rise or proof your own breads. And even when you get it down for yourself, it may change depending on whether something in your environment changes, like weather or what have you. A ten minute variance is nothing to sweat over. Just watch your bread.

You probably will not be too consistently proficient if you bake bread only twice a year. That's probably okay, if you're baking bread only twice a year. About the stone. No, it's not a waste of money, and in fact you'll find it a huge help in producing a better loaf. Make sure you preheat your oven on high for at least an hour and then turn it down to the required temp to bake.

I ordered the boxes from ULINE. They have every sort of shipping box you might want. This one is 9"x6"x2". ← Thanks! I actually have their catalog but haven't ordered from them as yet.

Ling, it's all so beautiful, and it looks like a fabulous time. I was wondering what you thought about the Italian chocolate almond torte. Did it meet your expectations? Did you like it? I'm curious whether your experience after tasting was anything like mine. And have you tried her almond cake from the same book? It's kind of to die for.

Wow, y'all sure make pretty stuff. Where'd you get your brown packing/shipping boxes?

Well, when I say mine reminded me of brownies, I meant more that the flavor and even the texture in some ways reminded me of brownies. The torte itself was light and airy and rose like mad, and from what I can tell from your photo, ours look identical, so it's not that it was dense or chewey or thick. I can't explain it really. It just wasn't quite what I'd thought it would be. And it tasted like brownies. Good brownies, but that's not quite what I was looking for.

I've just started baking from Medrich's Pure Dessert. I love her almond cake, and although I sort of like the Italian chocolate almond torte, it seems a little too much like a version of brownies. Very good brownies, very fancy brownies, but still too much like a brownie in terms of flavor and texture. I've baked it three times now with slight variations in, say, more finely-ground amonds and chocolate and a bit of flavoring, but it always ends up sort of too brownie-like. I'd like to find a chocolate dessert as airy and as light as that, though, but with a little less of the brownie overtones. Anybody have something?