devlin

Actually, I do it the same way. I have a retarder, but I haven't used it yet, although I expect to soon.

Sounds like a success. It sounds as if the water content might have dictated the shape (flatness) of the bread. Or perhaps the shaping? I wanted to note, since sitting around thinking about the conversation here about experimentations with water/flour content and temps, that I suspect maybe folks might be exposing their cultures to too much heat. Maybe? Dunno. But your comment about wrist "warm" got me thinking because, as I noted somewhere else, 80 degrees doesn't feel warm at all when I measure it against my wrist. I don't know that I'd even characterize is as lukewarm. It feels nearly coolish to me. And anymore, unless it's really cold in the house, I refresh and "proof" my cultures at room temp, just set them on the counter in the kitchen. Takes about 6 hours generally, sometimes 4. So, to reiterate, an instant read thermometer would probably be very useful.

I started reading this thread with interest because I wondered whether what you're looking for even exists (still not sure!). I use a knife, and frankly I don't know that a nut grinder would be faster or produce better results. But if I can find one that is and does, then I'd kinda like one too.

Hope you're having better luck today. About the wrist temp, it's hard for me to say. "Blood warm" is usually the description used when noting a temperature, and while that may be apt, it's hard to know what "blood warm" actually feels like unless you have a thermometer to test it against in the first place. For me, I was surprised by how cool 75, 80 or 83 degrees feels against my skin. So it's possible you're still warming the water too much. Buy an instant read thermometer to be safe. You can pick one up in nearly any grocery store. But in response to your question, here's how I handle the end "proof" of my culture refreshing. After it's risen nicely and looks sort of spongy and bubbled, I put it in the fridge. I should take a photo of that, I suppose. It will continue to grow a bit once it's in the fridge, so it may be better to under proof a culture than over proof it. For my own taste, it's over proofed if it's bubbled to the point that it has a sort of frothiness skimming the top. And I've discovered too that if I cut back a bit on the water (3/4 cup liquid measure water to 1 cup dry measure flour) I don't get the frothiness either. So I consider the culture sufficiently refreshed when it's risen into a nice full bubbled spongy looking culture, with the bubbles sort of bulging up into the surface of the culture. No froth.

GAH! Don't listen to your friend. Also, I meant to ask what the temp of your water is.... I try to stay right around 83 degrees F, more or less, just because for me that's always gotten me what I'm looking for. Stay consistent, refresh every day for a week, and see where you get.

Try cutting back the water to 3/4 cup with the 1 cup of flour. Don't tighten the lid, just set loosely. Set next to a lamp, just three or four inches. Check after a couple of hours to see if you're making progress. Then again in a couple of hours. It shouldn't, generally speaking, take much more than that. Maybe 6, but it depends on the strength and health of your starter. You may simply need to continue the process faithfully for several days before it really gains the sort of strength you're looking for. [edited to clarify...]

I think what you're describing is very close to what I do, but I'm not sure what you mean when you say the final two steps and baking are completed the second day. Can you describe that a little more? I suspect I do it in the reverse (the two steps the day before bake, and the final mix the day of bake), but I'm not sure. So, for example, my standard mix is two refreshments the day before bake and then the first mix for fermentation the same night, and then the final mix the next day (the day of bake), and then about a four hour fermentation with turning, then shaping and a final proof before bake. Close? My durum is a departure from that, though. Two fermentations over about a day and a half, and then a final mix the day of bake with the usual rise and fold and then final proof.

[scolding ] First, you need to take notes. If you can't remember what you've done from one batch to the next, you'll have difficulty making progress. [back to friendly mode ] When you say you proof for 12 hours and then fold and let sit til it doubles, do you mean you fold it only once?

Could it maybe be you're not letting them proof long enough? And how long generally do you allow the first rising with the fold method?

Simple? Yes. Although sort of high-maintenance at the same time. I refresh my culture once a day several days of the week, and then twice two or three days, and then I "wash" it every once in a while by diluting and refreshing over a few days which washes out what I perceive as an increase in sour and it balances out into what to my sense of taste (the actual culture) and smell is a lovely fresh thing I can't really describe. Not sour. So on the one hand, it's very simple. Refreshing with flour and water. And an occasional wash. On the other hand, it's constant maintenance. But that's the nature of the beast. If I weren't in the bread business, I'd probably let it sit in the fridge for a couple of weeks or so until I wanted to bake. Because my business is fledgling and small, I can't bake right away when I get back from a stint out of town because I need to bring the culture back to what I consider full function. Or anyway, I won't bake right away because of that. I could, but I prefer not to because the culture's not quite up to snuff if it's been sitting in the fridge for days.

Uh, yeah, what's with the cage? And I'd prefer a pouring shield as well.

When people tell me they hate sourdough breads, I ask questions, like where have they been buying their sourdoughs, because I'm generally sure right off the bat they're buying "sourdough" bread from a grocery store, the sort of mass-produced stuff passed off as sourdoughs which are in fact fake sourdough, breads that call themselves sourdough but which are nothing more than very bad white bread with "sourdough" additive or a sourdough with commercial yeast added as well. Or that they've had the same thing from a restaurant bread basket. If that's what they mean by sourdough, then yeah, I'd hate sourdough too. There aren't very many bakers who bake authentic, pure sourdoughs. And that's why I prefer to refer to my own breads as "naturally leavened." But I also manage my sourdough culture in such a way that my breads aren't sour. The Village Bakery

I should have stipulated no herbs. I don't want the prunes to compete with too many things and I want the overall flavor sweetish rather than savory. I have tried the goat cheese, but it doesn't provide quite the tang or oomph I was going for. So, Katie, the roccolo sounds like what I might be looking for. Although it puts me in mind of cough drops. Thanks! But don't let that stop anybody else from chiming in.

I'm supposing right off the bat the answer might be goat cheese, but then again, maybe not.... Anyway, I'm trying to come up with a blend of cream cheese and something a little stronger (funkier, but not in the bleu variety, along the lines of goat cheese maybe) to ultimately be paired with prunes soaked in some variety of booze. The cream cheese has the base flavor and consistency I like, but it doesn't have quite the oomph I'm looking for. Any suggestions?

Those are gorgeous. And how did you like the flavor?

A few notes on some questions raised here re keeping and maintaining starters and also affordable materials for baking. When you're not using your starter, put it in the fridge. It'll keep fine for quite some time. I've never left mine longer than about three weeks, and Ed Wood says they generally maintain pretty good viability for up to a month without feeding. Even so, I'd think a culture would be fairly handily revived even after a longer stay in the fridge without feeding if it's attended to properly. My own culture is something between liquid and sponge, and because I bake regularly I feed it every day. Except for this week as I was out of town. So, to reduce some of the acidity that's accumulated over the week and to bring it back up to speed, I'm giving mine a "wash." I follow Wood's instructions for washing a culture. Using a 24 oz canning jar, I start with a cup of culture, add about 2 cups warmish (about 75-85 degrees) water and stir vigorously. Dump everything but 1 cup and feed with 1 cup flour and 3/4 cup water, stir vigorously (as Wood notes, everything is "stirred vigorously") and proof at roughly 85 degrees for 6 to 12 hours. You may need to repeat several times til it revives to its original, active state. With my daily feeding, I feed with the same flour and water values noted above and let sit at room temp til it nearly doubles in volume and then refrigerate. About proofing materials. If I bought my materials at places like Sur la Table or King Arthur's I'd be bankrupt. I make my own couches from a medium weight canvas cut from bolts of the stuff at Wal Mart. It's cheap and it works. Just season with flour. The Village Bakery edited to clarify a thing...

That's an absolutely normal looking sourdough starter after it sits for awhile with no use. If you use it every day (or feed it every day), it won't separate, but if you feed only every several days or once a week or less, then you get the separation. As somebody noted above, simply stir the stuff on top (the "hooch") into the rest and feed as usual. You're keeping it refrigerated between uses, yeah?

Thanks for your response. I guess I just have to keep saying that for me this didn't have anything to do with how I think about sales or how to do sales. I really do understand that sometimes it takes a long time to get particular customers, and I also think (and did from the beginning) that the owner probably has a really good relationship with their current supplier and probably knows them, and so would be reluctant to change because of that and so I would be lucky to get them, and that it might take a long time to get them if I ever did, that I would have to be persistent, and that because I'm new in the business, that's just another thing to factor into someone changing from a long-standing supplier. I get that, I really really really do. I've always gotten that. My principle whine was simply the inconsiderate follow-up by the chef. And by now I'm sounding like a broken record. The behavior of the chef, the continual "Call me on Tuesday," "Call me on Thursday," Call me, blah blah blah" and the never-ending cycle of that is what hacked me off. It's really that simple. Here's the thing. Many people in the business of buying product (owners and chefs) should figure out a better and more consistent way of handling people, and if they say they're going to do something, they should do it. The excuses offered up by some that it happens all the time because people are afraid of saying no doesn't make their behavior right. Just because a thing happens doesn't make it okay. To my mind, THAT's unprofessional. As I said, we're all adults here. Adults doing business should really understand that saying no thank you is all it takes.

Well by NOW I have moved on. It maybe only seems more as if I haven't because the responses keep coming here and I keep responding and clarifying what happened. So, yeah, whereas the day I posted this I was still fuming, by now, just a couple of days later, it actually feels as if it happened a very long time ago.

Sigh. I really am a fully adult woman who is capable of separating my product from selling. Yes, I would like people to like my bread. On the other hand, again, I'm a fully adult woman who is capable of separating my product from my selling the product. Truly. My point is not that he didn't want to buy it and only pretended he did. My point is, again (how many times do I have to say this?), that he gave me days and times to call him. He was very specific about it. And he did it on a number of occasions. If he'd merely said, "Give us a call" and I did it once or twice without getting anywhere, I would simply have dropped it without thinking twice. Truly. But that's not what happened. I'm not that overly-sensitive that I get weepy and hysterical when people don't want to buy my bread.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but on the other hand, it wasn't as casual as "thanks and please give us a call." It was "I want to start using your breads, I'm here next Tuesday and will give you a call after I talk to the owner, but if you don't hear from me, because it gets crazy around here, please call ME." And he repeated it several times. And then when I did exactly that, he reiterated that he'd been swamped, hadn't even had time to talk to the owner, and, "please call me on Thursday." And then it just went on and on that way until I thought, "What the heck is the problem here?" And then I started to feel sort of jerked around. It's one thing to say things because you don't feel comfortable saying no (although frankly I think that's very bad business practice -- saying no in situations like that is part of business, and people shouldn't feel bad saying no), it's another to lay out an entire scenario, days to call, and then never follow through. I'm the least pushy person in the world. My husband takes me to task sometimes for that. I don'tmuch like the idea of being sales lady for my product, even though I know I have to do it. At the same, I often find myself enjoying the time I've spent with chefs, who have always been extremely respectful and polite and engaging and generous with their time, and so I don't absolutely hate it.

No, I'm sorry, you misunderstood. My husband is part of this business. I asked him to call after he repeatedly asked me why I wasn't getting anywhere with them. Also, I emailed about Valentine's dinner because we were legitimately looking for a place to have dinner for Valentine's dinner, and this is one our our favorite places. I completely understand that front and back of the house are different. But that's not the point. It's only a matter of simple courtesy that someone return a call. It's really that simple.

Not so wild. That is exactly what I proposed to my husband. And of course I'd have to put my card in the basket as well.

One of the issues is that because I'm still essentially a one-woman operation, with some intermittent help, I have to choose my customers. I can't just supply people at the drop of a hat. And because of the nature of the product, all naturally-leavened breads built up over at least a couple of days,... well, you get the idea. And it's not that I feel rejected. It's that I feel led down the garden path. I'm supremely annoyed that I was specifically asked (and not just once) to please call back if I didn't hear from them right away. And then asked again. And again. And at some point it starts to feel beyond rude. They're not even a one-time customer yet and they're asking quite a lot by asking me to call over and over again. I've never encountered a response like it. And because the response to the bread was as good as it was, not just polite, but really beyond good, and the chef was beyond effusive and talked to me for quite some time, it seemed to me the least he could do was call back. So, after all that run-around, I wrote their name on my white board, and then crossed it out with a big X just to help me get the "no." And frankly, one of the biggest stumbling blocks for me is that this is one of my husband's and my favorite restaurants. We love it. And it's expensive, and we've spent quite a lot of money there in the past. We're good customers and we tip better than most people, always more than what's standard, because we understand the business, and we feel it's important to support the restaurants we love because we know how hard it is. And now I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth. Not because they have apparently decided not to go with my own business, that's never been an issue with me, but because they've given me such short shrift and behaved in a way that is to my mind stunningly rude. So, yes, I have to take another look at the white board.

Thanks all. Those are all notions that crossed my mind but are good to have reiterated and supported by those of you who've been in the business longer than I have. It helped to vent. And your advice and feedback has been doubly helpful. Thanks.