devlin

You could... the fondant will stay fluid for a while when it's still warm, but you'd have to work quickly and the cake (already crumb coated) would have to be well chillled. But I'd probably use a white choc ganache instead, come to think of it. The thing with the poured fondant is that it can wrinkle if you were to move the cake, it can crack at the edges and you'd lose bits here and there (that happens with my petit fours if I am sloppy with them. I ended up switching to coating chocolate for the petit fours, it tastes better and I get better coverage with them, but you couldn't use that on a cake!) ← I've become a big fan of white chocolate buttercream, and I was wondering too whether it was possible to do a white chocolate ganache in the same way as a dark chocolate ganache (you can see I'm a total chocolate novice here). So is the technique the same for white chocolate ganache? You just substitute white for the dark?

Jeanne, can poured fondant be poured over a buttercream frosting? Or would it turn the undercoating of buttercream into sludge?

Just a small contribution again about handling doughs. There are certain types of biscuits that work best if you just barely form a shaggy mass of dough before baking. That's the famous southern type biscuit. So there's that. But those are more cake, than bread. There's no yeast involved, for example. On the other hand, the caution about handling a bread too much also depends on where you are in the process. If you're kneading a bread, if you're mixing it in a mixer, obviously you're going to be handling the bread somewhat roughly. Nancy Silverton actually gives a little tutorial in her book, guiding the reader through her own kneading process which is to fold about a third with one hand, pick up and sort of flick into the air and then bang down on the counter (actually another well-known baker did this in the Julia Child "Baking With Julia" series as well). That's a well-handled dough. And that's fine, if you want to do that. But there's as much evidence to suggest it's not entirely necessary, and that you can get really beautiful results using the stretch and fold method, which is a gentler way of handling a dough. No "punching" for sure. If you do it correctly, you don't end up with a gas bag masquerading as a loaf of bread, you'll end up with, well, something like this: http://www.thevillagebakeryonline.com/craf...san_breads.html or this: http://www.thevillagebakeryonline.com/breads.html The first is a fairly wet dough that is only very briefly mixed to incorporate the ingredients and then finished with the stretch and fold method and then finally very loosely shaped before the final proof, and the second is a ridiculously wet dough that is mixed for about 15 minutes and then finished with the stretch and fold method using bench scrapers only, and then, again, a loose shaping for final proof. The one I mix for 15 minutes is an anomaly. All my other breads are mixed only for about a minute, slowly, just to incorporate ingredients, and then finished with the stretch and fold method, and then shaped very gently for the final proof. I don't use elaborate shaping techniques with folding and folding again and pinching and the like, although I used to until I discovered that for me it just seemed an unnecessary and fussy step. So anyway, not to hijack the thread, and it's probably yet another example of how the process is more complex than simply saying "do this" without clarifying where "do this" (or "don't do this") works best in the overall process.

Well now! I think I know how you feel. It took me forever to begin to feel comfortable making bread. Reading your own experiences and your struggle here, I'm reminded that I went through pretty much the same shebang years ago. And my poor husband had to live through it with me. About notes. I'd second the suggestion to keep notes. I kept notes about every step I took with every batch when I first started. Every little variation, every minute, every inch of every detail was noted down. It helped immeasurably. I still keep notes. On the other hand, don't worry too much about a little variance with your instant-read thermometer. I used to be fanatical about it. Now? Not a big deal. Although I do keep two of them as well to make sure they're actually working. And it's not absolutely crucial, actually, that your bread be precisely thus and such internal temp to be fully cooked. These are more or less guidelines. Not written in stone by a long shot. My rosemary loaf, for example, is better when it comes to an internal temp of roughly 190. Nearly every resource will insist on 200-205 at least. Truly, it depends on the loaf, and there's often a safe ten degree variance for a finished loaf, more or less. But if you bake enough, over time you'll probably be able to know when a loaf is done just by the way it looks and smells, so long as you're routinely baking the same sort of loaf. In other words, don't drive yourself crazy. I will say, though, that I prefer to bake pretty hot. Stick to what you're doing for awhile and over time you'll get a better sense of how the heat will work for you. I haven't put pics up for awhile and so I'm a little fuzzy on the details of that, but can you get into your "assistant" function to upload?

I think the "softer, lighter" quality comes as much from technique as anything. You might get a higher loaf, more rise, with bread flour, but there are always caveats attached to a claim like that. It depends on what sort of loaf you're making, how you handle the dough, the water content, the process, the technique,... a whole boatload of qualifications. I've known plenty of bakers who use bread flour who don't get a soft, light product. At the same time, some of the best Italian bread I enjoyed in Italy was the lightest and most delicate sort of crumb I've seen in a loaf of bread, made from about the most degraded flour on the planet, not bread flour at all.

Just to note general agreement with the info above, especially the advice about adding too much flour. It took me a couple of years of experimenting with bread baking (maybe more) to get to the stage where I trusted a wet dough and was able to handle a wet dough without the impulse to keep adding flour. As suggested by your own experience, you'll invariably end up with a brick instead of a loaf of bread.... And it's fatal for biscuits, together with handling the dough too much. If you want light biscuits, try following the recipe on a bag of White Lily flour, and handle the dough as little as possible. A scale is really one of the most essential pieces of equipment for baking. If you don't have one, you can get a really cheap, very effective scale at Wal Mart, together with a couple of bench/dough scrapers, which will also help in handling the dough without adding too much flour. While I understand the method behind oiling your hands, I don't find it necessary myself, and for me it's sort of a pain in the neck just because it's one more ingredient to mess with. Dough scrapers will function in the same way pretty much. Water temp.... The more I listen to people talk about their bread-baking difficulties, the more I'm convinced "warm" probably translates to something around 95 plus degrees, were the temp of the water actually measured. Pick up an instant-read thermometer while you're getting the scale and the bench scrapers. None of these cost much, and they all help more than I can say. I prefer a water temperature of somewhere around 75 degrees (although it depends on how long I want my doughs to ferment), which of course is easier with instant yeast (or natural leavens, which is what I use). I realize now that in my first couple of years baking bread I was using water that was far too warm. Historically, recipes will note "blood warm" which works in the way Dougal notes: you should generally not feel either warm or cool when you run it over your wrist or what have you (although it'll probably feel cooler than you think it should). Again, an instant-read thermometer will help you getting a good feel for what that feels like. Dan Lepard's a great place to start.

It depends on how you use your doughs, but generally, here are some links that should help: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm http://whatscookingamerica.net/Bread/yeastbreadtip.htm

Um, yes, okay.... I actually missed the first line of that message, and subsequently didn't immediately recognize "On Food and Cooking" as McGee's text (especially as it was typed in there, looking as it did more as an intro to the message instead of an actual book or text and without the clarifying author to identify it). So, yes, anyway, of course McGee would fall into that category. I have McGee's text myself. But for a little clarification, maybe, I'm not asking because I want book recommendations. I'm not scouting for recipes, I was mostly wondering the sorts of books folks here have used in their lives or careers that taught them something, that they learned from, that they loved to have. Even Rose Levy Beranbaum has talked about the influence of Julia Child's books on her own career. For me, as an artisan bread baker, I don't use books any more either (or anyway not in the way most casual bakers and cooks use them). I've developed my own formulas and I go from there. But there are a lot of influences behind that. So if I were to be kidnapped tomorrow, the one bread-baking tome I'd want to carry with me would be my own binders of breads, and also my kitchen binder of essential ideas I use for cooking. Together with Beranbaum's "Cake Bible."

Alrighty then.... On the other hand, I was asking about books, not your experience.

Say you were rounded up with a group of folks and either had a skill to offer in exchange for a comfy room and some other niceties or were sent off to a slag heap to toil away in the hot sun every day for 16 hours, what 3 books would you want to take with you to enable you to cook and bake such fabulous foodstuffs that your kidnappers would keep you over some poor schlub who could cook only beans and rice and the occasional dry biscuit?

I'm wreathed in smiles right now THAT was the least attractive part of your cake??? Good grief. It's gorgeous. I just snipped a bit to post here because I didn't want to violate some ehtics code about posting other people's work. But truly, I'm admiring as all get out. You do such beautiful work. And thank you for that little tutorial. That's very helpful. I just put that book in my Amazon cart a couple of days ago, and I guess I'll be buying it sooner than I'd planned. Thank you! eta: But also, your friend was right. Until you labelled it a "smudge" it just looked intentional and all of a piece. I understand though, I always see what I consider the worst part of anything I do, while everybody else stands around scratching their heads and saying, "No, it's gorgeous!"

Well, this is new to me, and so that's why I asked if I was using the correct term. I'm thinking what I want to do isn't actually marbelling, but called something else I don't even have the vocabulary for. Sorry, I'm a total idiot right now about this subject.

Thank you. That's the instruction I've read here and there, but without an accompanying photo, and it sounds so simple and that it wouldn't produce anything quite this pretty that I wondered whether that could really be the way to do it.

I'm not really sure whether, strictly speaking, this is "marbelling" or not, but how might one perform such a thing?

Thank you all for your responses. It's all useful and helpful. I'm only just now starting to explore baking cakes using chocolate, and it's really foreign territory for me. While the flavor combinations and textures are crucial, I do like a pretty presentation, and so I'm tryng to find the best resources and methods I can.

You're my new hero. Thanks!

Alice Medrich recommends using a strip of ribbed, plastic shelf liner to spread chocolate over to get a smooth band of chocolate to wrap around a chocolate cake, and says you can get the stuff at any housewares store. I'm not having any luck, though. Any suggestions? And is this what she's actually talking about?

I'm casting around for some books to learn more about baking beautiful and flavorful chocolate cakes and working with some design elements to pretty them up, such as white chocolate cutouts, etc., over dark chocolate ganache, how to do that sort of thing and more.... Really good layer cakes, etc. I'm not interested in super simple fudgy or sponge cakes to whip up for after-dinner dessert at home, but more complex cakes I can add to my repertoire of cakes to sell. How about Marcel Desaulniers? (and any one of his books in particular?) Or Jean-Pierre Wybauw's Chocolate Decorations? Others?

From Jeanne Kelley's Blue Eggs and Yellow Tomatoes (beautiful book), a version of one of her pastas that also makes one of the best cold pasta salads on the planet.... Um, I'm doing this off the top of my head, so use whatever amounts you like.... tomatoes (sliced cherry or whatever you like) garlic olive oil pasta (orecchiette, tortellini, penne, whatever you like) white balsamic vinegar (a couple of tablespoons, more or less, to taste) a mix of whatever herbs you like (oregano, thyme, rosemary, basil, aurgula, and, important, chopped green onions) salt and pepper grated parmesan I use a mix of cheese tortellini and orecchiette, but you could do it any old way, with penne, or something smallish. And we saute the tomatoes in olive oil, garlic, salt and pepper first. So, saute some tomatoes, either chopped or pressed garlic, salt and pepper. Boil your pasta. Drain. Add the sauteed tomato mix to the pasta, or if you're using a big enough pan, just dump the drained pasta to the pan, and then dump everything into a large bowl because it's easier to mix.... then the balsamic vinegar and perhaps a little more olive oil, and then your herbs, salt and pepper. Mix well, taste and adjust seasonings, add lots of grated parmesan. It's fabulous warm, and it's fabulous cold (brought to room temp). Make it a couple of days ahead for however you want to use it. Also, about making your own ricotta, which, come to think of it, might be a nice addition to that pasta above, if you use goat milk, you get a really lovely flavor.

Well, I guess I was also hoping someone might suggest what sort of buttercream would work best with the white chocolate, if that was a viable option. So, anyway, I think you've answered my question. And you've also read my mind because I was going ask about the white chocolate ganache. Thanks, Jeanne!

Does adding white chocolate help stabilize buttercream for shipping or when the frosting will be sitting around in warm weather?

A few years ago I had a bavarian cream to die for, but am having no luck replicating one that comes close. Any advice? Recommended recipes? Also, I'd like some variations on the theme, particularly with rum, chestnut, etc.

Sounds like a good start. Waiting the 20 minutes to add the cheese is a good idea, and in fact that's about how long I wait to add salt and then other ingredients to my own breads. I like the idea of chives. Or you could use chopped green onions. A sticky dough is not a bad thing, and in fact if I were you I'd look for a sort of sticky dough. Not so much that you can't take your hand away from the dough without making a mess of your hand, but sticky enough that it, well, feels sort of sticky. You don't want a dry dough. Wetter is better. About oven temp. Preheat your oven at least 45 mintues to an hour, and I'd go for at least 400 degrees. And that's for rolls. For breads, I bake in my domestic oven at about 475 degrees with a preheated oven an hour in advance at 550. As for shaping, for rolls, especially maybe cheese rolls, I'd consider shaping them very little, handling them only slightly to get them into shape. Think, maybe, of the way the cheese rolls at Red Lobster restaurant are shaped, which looks as if they're simply pinched off a batch of dough and slapped on a baking pan. And I'm thinking they must come from a very wet batch of dough. And along the same lines, you might consider adding some Italian spices to your dough and then brushing the baked rolls with a melted butter with garlic powder or garlic salt just as they're taken from the oven.

Yeah I know one of the big problems is that we don't weigh the flour so it's not possible to be consistent every time. I've been meaning to pick up a good digital scale (my current one is a junky spring loaded thing), so it seems like today is the perfect day to do it. ← I have a "junky spring loaded" scale, and it works just fine. You need to start there. Truly. Next time, just weigh the flour and then you can adjust water and flour later if you like, but you need to start weighing now. Just do it! I dunno, but I read "sesame seeds" and thought, "huh?" Why sesame seeds in a cheddar cheese bread? It just sounds a little odd, and frankly not particularly appetizing. How about a bleu cheese and walnut bread? You should be able to find restaurant-sized bags of bleu cheese, and it would be a much nicer bread, it seems to me. Also, I wouldn't just dump everything into the mixer all at once and expect the bread to be very interesting, especially if you're working with cheese (or anyway, it's not what I'd do). Try adding the cheese at the end of the mix, add a bit at a time and mix sparingly with each addition, just to incorporate the stuff. Keep us posted.

I've tried that, but in general I like the machine for sticky doughs. A lot of people seem to get great results with these doughs in a KA; I just don't have a good sense of when to turn it off. ← I tend to mix for only a scant few minutes, til the dough comes together and incorporates enough so that it loses its exceptional shagginess. The length of mix depends on what sort of dough I'm mixing and whether I'm adding anything else. But generally, I mix the water and the starter, add the flour and mix til it's all mixed well and then leave it for 15-20 minutes. Then add salt, etc. and mix for maybe a couple of minutes. That's it for mixing with the mixer. The rest of the development comes from stretching and folding.