Holly Moore

Granted the dogs are from the same source. Buns might be too. My experience with Grays - maybe a half dozen visits - not many by native New Yorker standards: the grilled dogs from Gray's are not as glistening, don't have the snap. The buns are not toasted enough to caramelize. The finished product is just thrown together. Papaya King, just the opposite. A consistently excellent dog.

No beef, or pork, or lamb. Not even veal. If enlightened non-vegetarian restaurants can offer a few alternatives for meat eschewers, should not enlightened (is there any other kind?) vegetarian restaurants include a rack of ribs or a t-bone steak on their menus for carnivores finding themselves trapped a vegetarian restaurant?

Another neat trip. We'll agree to disagree on Woodman's. I agree to disagree with most everyone when it comes to Woodman's. I really like the place. Twice I have high-jacked friends for a one day round trip from Philadelphia to Woodman's. I've never had small clams there. Perhaps this explains it. I was hoping you'd find my breakfast place in Gloucester (too late to recommend it to you), but I don't know the name. Just that it's on the street that runs along the harbor, most of the way through town across from a processing plant. Great breakfast including Portuguese linguica sausage. Excellent pancakes too.

I'm happy at Ben's Chili Bowl for eggs over easy, grits and an half smoke. Not all that Nashvillian, but a good southern, down home feel in an urban sort of way.

Gray's focus is on cheap. Papaya King's focus is on quality. At New York City papaya/hot dog places you truly get what you pay for. Gray's serves a fine, cheap hot dog. Papaya King serves a far better prepared dog, complete with snap, a freshly toasted bun and a presentation that makes a Gray's dog pale in comparison. Same goes for the papaya drinks. Papaya King's has better flavor, tastes fresher, frothier and cooler.

What I liked about the place was the Philadelphia influence - both a hog hoagie with sliced pork and a Texas Cheesesteak with smoked brisket. I also want to get back and try the tomato dumplings. Smokehouse BBQ and Sub Shop at HollyEats.Com

Two places come immediately to mind: What might be my pick for the best restaurant in the U.S. - the Oyster Room at Bowen's Island for shovelfuls of roasted oysters dumped on your table to shuck and eat. Your Place - for sure the best hamburger in Charleston and one of the best I've had anywhere. They moved this year. The Editor of Charleston's alternative weekly sent me their new address, but I lost it, so ask once you get there. If you're so inclined, check out some of the other places on Charleston SC at HollyEats.Com. There's a bunch of good, cheap eatin' to be done in Charleston. Other top of mind options: Gullah Cuisine and if you happen to be in the area on a Friday, the H&R Sweet Shop for a traditional plate of red rice and fried fish. Both of these places are just north of Charleston, across the bridge in Mount Pleasant. Let us know what other places you find.

No more Fat Guy comparisons of pulled pork to Momo fare then?

Starting in 2008 a passport will be required. Department of State Web Site

Society Hill was cleaned in the 70's. Manayunk happened in the late 80s and early 90s. From the late 70s on Philadelphia's restaurants have led the way for Philadelphia's tourist and convention industries. The Book and the Cook is over 20 years old. Granted, Old City and East Market Street are latecomers. And Starr has replaced Poses and Stein. But the opening of hundreds of restaurants in the past few years doesn't mean they are any better than the restaurants of the original Restaurant Rennaisance. Just means they reflect the current dining trends. I'll put Frog and the Commissary up against any of Starr's trendy extravaganza's and walk away a winner. If not in the 80s, and I think there is a good arguement that Philadelphia was there then, by the early 90's, at least, Philadelphia was a great destination. That it has taken NG Travel Magazine so long to realize this doesn't speak well of their travel savvy. Equally as upsetting as NG Travel's condescending pat on the head to Philadelphia is our civic leaders lapping it up like love starved puppies.

Is it travel or is it immigration? OK, immigration is travel, but I take travel in this thread to mean tourism. Over the past couple of years a lot of US cities have seen a growth in the number of authentic Mexican restaurants. They have been well received. In Philadelphia, at least, the core customers are fellow Mexican immigrants. But their popularity has spread far beyond their base.

In the 70's I did two years in Stevens Point, dead smack in the center of Wisconsin. In my work I got to meet many moderate to medium income types. For many, a vacation was a trip to the Dells or to Door County. I met a number who were pround that they've never been outside the state of Wisconsin. Since then as I travel about the country I encounter many similar - they've never been outside their home state, they've never been to one of the US's major cities, they've never been further south than Maryland or further north than Tenn. Steven's point about the number of Americans who don't have passport is definitely a concern. But I'm wondering how many more American's have never been more than three states away from their home state.

What's this "Next Great City" crap? Other than maybe the first 3/4 of the 20th Century, Philadelphia has been a great city since the 1700's. Philadelphia has been a world class city since the Restaurant Renaissance of the 1970's/1980's. National Geographic Traveler Magazine is 20-25 years behind the times. Their next issue: Las Vegas, Next Gambling Hot Spot.

eGullet members are definitely not representative of the insipid palate that I believe to be predominant in suburban America. That there are notable exceptions such as what has been described here does not mean that, overall, American surburban dining is not as dumbed down as I project it to be. Good food and great dining can be found most anywhere. But throughout suburbia, meaning much of America, these are a small minority of what is available and what is popular. It is a matter of conditioning and culture. The food one is exposed to as a youth or young adult determines one's definition of good and maybe even fine dining. At many homes both husband and wife work. Others are single family working parents. In either, it is tough to find the time to prepare dinner from scratch. Instead, Boston Market take-out, Domino pizza with bread sticks and gourmet dipping sauce, or the frozen food section/microwave one-two punch to a home cooked meal. Red Lobster, Olive Garden, ChiChi's or any of the dozens of chain family dining options that line the highways and mall parking lots of suburbia rule the dining out scene. Ethnic cuisine is Mexican at ChiChis. For too many diner at the Olive Garden is reserved for a special occasion meal. Innovation is adding grilled shrimp and shitake mushrooms to the pasta Alfredo. Yes, one can live in the burbs and dine well. But for most that is not the priority.

Please forgive my shaky command of English. But I wouldn't call what you describe, with such fear-inducing detail, "dining". The masses that populate those chain restaurants and supermarkets surely don't "dine"? They are fed, and that's it. I have always believed that the English term "dining" entailed a minimum of civilization and was not a mere synonym for "having dinner". But I may be wrong. ← I suspect your command of English is quite good. But dining is in the eye of the diner. The family of five around the table at Olive Garden indeed sees themselves as "dining."

In the US there are two futures for dining. For a few it will be an adventure. New tastes, new fusions. At some point, perhaps (dare I say I hope), a return to Escoffier. Then the cycle continues. More new tastes and new fusions. It is our nature to regularly return to our roots and set out once again. A wheel of dining. For the masses the future lies in embellishing the mediocre. Vaster frozen food aisles in the supermarkets. Lowest common denominator product development by the restaurant chains. Ever expanding suburbs boasting fewer independent restaurants and more family oriented chains; fewer supermarkets and more warehouse food centers Starting with the last third of the 20th century and with no end in sight, for generations of children and generations to come, their primary exposure to cuisine has been and will be home cooking thawed and finished off in the microwave and dining out at chains that bland down and Americanize cuisine for the greatest possible appeal. The McDonald's generation has raised the Chucky Cheese generation who has raised the Olive Garden generation. Their future is simplification, unchallenging flavors, and oceans of melted processed cheese.

I'm amazed that even Fox could cram so many sterotypes into a single half hour. But what the hell, it's a lot of fun and enough inside restaurant humor to keep me self-satisfied. It would be neat if down the road they brought in real chefs for kitchen cameo's as mere minons.

Tony Luke's actually does some great burgers, too. But you're right, cheesesteaks aren't their mainstay and I won't be convinced that Tony Lukes translates any better to NYC than it did to Center City Philadelphia until I get up there myself. A world class cheesesteak outside of metro Philadelphia - White House Subs in AC. There is also that place in LA's Farmers Market where one can order cheesesteaks with either sprouts or avocado. Not really world class, I guess, but so very LA.

Except the inventors seem to disagree. Check it out. ← Geno's does that, too. I guess that's why, other than a rare late night fix, I get my cheesesteaks elsewhere. ← Got me curious so I went to my most trusted reference for all things cheesesteak, HollyEats.Com, which happens to have pictures of both menus. Pat's menu spells cheesesteak without the space. Geno's menu never mentions a cheesesteak but speaks rather of a "Cheese Whiz Steak" or a "Steak with Cheese". My guess is that both steak shops went to some fancy-schmancy web design company whose staff's only exposure to cheesesteaks has been at Barclay Prime. Or the owners' kids did the site.

One of my core beliefs is that any place which puts "Philly" in front of "Cheesesteaks" is a place not to order a cheesesteak.

Flying to LA tomorrow, so time to start finalizing plans. Looks like I won't be making it to San Diego - with the exceptions for some daytrips to somewhere (suggestions welcome), I'm staying in the LA area - figure there is enough to eat there. My biggest frustration has been finding a place to stay. I have three basic requirements in lodging - rooms can range from Hampton Inn to Four Seasons in comfort, hi speed internet access, and the tough one - the TV must get both MSNBC and Comedy Central. Gotta cover my daily news sources - Imus in the Morning and the Daily Show. Anywhere else the last one isn't an issue. I've looked all over the LA area and have not found a single place offering both stations. So I'm spending my first new nights in the Glendale area - close to the friends I'm visiting. But still don't know where I'll be after that. Probably the Santa Monica/ Venice Beach or the Beverly Hills area. On my list to eat, culled from this thread - Tommy's, the Apple Pan, the Old Hamburger Hamlet which I first ate at in 1969 when we were opening Raymond's - a upscale McD's named after Ray Kroc - on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills, In & Out, Oki-Dog, two or three Mexican places, the North Woods Inn, Roscoe's Chicken and Waffle, La Palma Chicken Pie Shop, Juicy Harvey's and, of course because I will follow Mayhaw Man anywhere, Also, for old time sakes and understanding it may lead to my banishment from eGullet, I'm going to renew my research into Po-Po platters and Navy Grogs at Trader Vic's in the Beverly Hilton. We're a little light on breakfast spots. Could use some imput there. Also anything comparable to the date shakes I got at the Hadley Fruit Orchards on the way to Palm Springs. Be great to meet some genuine LA gullets during this trip.

I have visons of one of those old time westerns where the locomotive is running out of wood so they begin tearing apart the railroad cars one by one to keep the fire stoked. My only advice, Varmint, burn the dining room table for last.

Good if you like winter. Bad if you don't. This is a Golf Course on Cape Elizabeth last January. ← I remember a cup of hot cocoa tasting particularly good in Maine one December a few years ago. Thanks, JohnnyD. For some reason I'm thinking that maybe there's still time for a trip to Maine before everything closes for the season.

Honey, why do you treat me so bad? I keep coming back, hoping to reignite that initial spark. But every time you do me wrong. Today, eggs benedict. Only problem the kitchen forgot to add the canadian bacon. Honey, I'm beginning to think we weren't meant to be.

My sainted mom taught me long ago not to comment on another bloke's mom, or in the case of our neighbors to the North, mum.