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I was influential in starting the so called fast food business in Hong Kong, but please consider that it has always been customer orientated, by Quality, Price and Acceptable Criteria very different than the Generic type of Fast Foods sold in the United States. They would never accept the type of products merchandised in the States, such as Roast Beef, Ham or Turkey Sandwiches that all taste the same in a blindfold testing done several times yearly where the testers are not able to taste any difference during the tests of each product, from a major fast food chain. The quality available must be consistent, tasty and indicative of expected tastes and flavors particular to Hong Kong or you don't remain in business. Also take into consideration that rents are generally higher then the States per square foot. The business that I started is slightly more up scale and now has in excess of 430 locations in Hong Kong, plus has sold off and diversified into Bakery, and Licensed Fast Food Business as well as Franchised. Irwin

I have experimented with the majority of so called brand name pork suppliers. I enjoy Pork in all it's guises. If your interested in getting better tasting pork at reasonable prices then I feel the best way to shop for pork is by shopping at Ethnic Asian Markets that operate by butchering the whole pork carcass. They generally buy younger, smaller pork, because it the type customers prefer. There are few offals that taste better if prepared correctly then Pork Kidney, Livers and Tongues from fresh killed pigs. The Loins, Sirloin, Ribs, Butt, Ham and Legs are generally leaner, with a nice light pink color that remain juicy, have taste and character rarely found in Boxed Pork that's packed in Cryovaced Packages generally from factory provisioner's from the Mid-west. If I'm buying Pork Loins for a special occasion I often will buy them 10/12 days before I intend to prepare them, having them tagged and allowed to hang on a meat hook in the stores Walk in Cooler [generally 33/34 degrees] to age all permit the enzymes to naturally tenderize the pork and enhance the flavor. Pork doesn't require the amount of aging that beef does, but it well worth the time and small lost from trimming the hung loins. When I pick them up I have the Butcher remove the Chine Bones. I prefer to remove the back ribs and dress the rest of the loin myself, but if you wish the butcher will dress the loin to your specifications. The Pork Chops, Roasts or Ribs will taste better then anything else available. I don't care for brining, since I feel that the salt effects the taste and sucks out the moisture from the finished meats drawing them to the surface. Pork is a lean meat, and the moisture is better retained in the meat itself. Even more important the actual cost is often only about 1/2 the price being charged by most supermarkets for the Tender, or Flavor enhanced Pork being sold by many chain stores that had 12/15% Fluid added, that your paying a ridiculous premium price for salted, chemically enhanced water, courtesy of your "USDA". This pork is available in the Seattle area at markets in Edmond's, International District, Tacoma, Kent, Ranier Valley and Burien. Irwin

The New York City Market is a market of more contradictions, opposites and the irrational then any marketplace in the world. To many of the contradictions are particular to the City, its Boroughs and Suburbs. The traditional succeeds longer then the improvisational IE; Katz's, 2nd Avenue, et all for "Pastrami Sandwiches', it's "Pizza Places" and even it's "Bars' and established or nouveau Restaurants all must be better then anywhere else to succeed. What I question about "Starwich" is not the number of ingredients, plus the many other ingredients required to bring the items together consistently is more then reasonable to imagine that they are starting with more then the may be able to perform with at what must be high volume, high rent, high labor operations. The pricing, items, selections are more geared for only a small percentage of Customers tastes in almost every neighborhood in NYC. There may be 10/15% of the type of employees able to afford regular meals at a "Starwich". The majority of employees generally brown bag, employee lunch rooms, or have regular deliveries, but even more eat their lunch on the run from Carts or Fast Food Places and often go shopping or run errands. Since I'm not on DSL it took much longer then I would regularly wait to download the site. I ran theses posting to my daughters office at 1 Battery Plaza with about 300 employees and the conclusion was that it's a "ELITIST" type of place, catering to a self important, gadget conscious market of pretend customers. It was a bit overwhelming and intimidating to most who were interested enough to check it out. I hope that this has been put together in a manner to adapt to the market quickly, as they may have made the fatal mistake of not letting the "CUSTOMERS" evolve and let the business grow into what it will become. I hope that that haven't overlooked the most important consideration of the 2004 time frame that all to many business aren't doing anymore. "MAKE IT USER FRIENDLY". I used to think this only applied to Computers, but today it's important to almost everything. I been involved with quite a few upscale attempts in the Seattle Market in many ways beginning similar to "Starwich" that haven't lasted more the 5 years or grown the way the speculators anticipated, I even have been told off more often then I care to remember for putting down on paper what eventually transpired. The only place that has kept it all together is still going strong in Texas because it 's quick to adapt, but never compromise with quality, nor is allowed to grow before it's ready. I wish them well, and hope their dreams come true. It somehow makes me think of the "Tad's Steakhouse Restaurants" opening on 42nd Street, east of 5th Avenue the first attempt of a Restaurant with those new fangled "Microwave Ovens" on every table the Cooked/Heated up the Food based upon the weight of the plates put into the Microwave for preparation. It was ahead of it's time [hasn't come yet] innovative, food was pretty good for the price, and it failed even with the Cash Flow from all the packed Steak places. There have been far to many places that were great ideas, but just don't make succeed. I'll never know why so many Blah and worst places manage to stay afloat when serving CRAP! Even more places that served decent food for years, changed management, started using pumped, adulterated products and are still doing business selling salty, processed food, in place of the delicious simply prepared items they started with. Whats annoying is they actually pay more for the Junk then what the real thing costs, but can't stop the momentum. Irwin

Sun-Ki: The anticipation for the "Squd Luau" at my daughters house is very special, with Hinode Rice, her own Salted Salmon, Day Old Poi, Pippikalua, Short Ribs Huli Huli. Pork with Chinese Cabbage, Chicken and Pork Luau it's her version of a Hawaiian Dinner. I'm fortunate to be invited. It's worth the 100 Mile Round Trip. With her family and a few friends the Gallon is generally 3/4's finished at the meal. and she eats the rest quickly, then starts coveting it again until next time. She's attempted preparing her own "Squd Luau", but to her it's never as good as "Helena's", even when we lived in Honolulu, or she visits she always tries it everywhere else, but to her it's the best. Irwin

Helena's Squid Luau is something everyone in my family feels is their favorite. Whenever any friend or acquaintance is returning from a visit to Honolulu my daughter contrives anyway reasonable to have them return to Seattle with a Gallon of the Squid Luau in exchange for 2 way airport drop off and pick up from Seattle. As soon as she knows the date and flight they are returning on her friends in Honolulu will order the Luau from Helene's ahead of time and pick it and bring to her friend just before they depart to the Airport. No one goes to that much trouble for something that doesn't taste better then just good. Man thats pretty , "Squid Luau", there's none better anywhere. Irwin

"OOOOOP's", somehow I overlooked in my previous response the other ingredient that has been very important in the Spice and Heat evolution. "MUSTARD" in all it's variations. Also though it not often included with the "Chili", "Ginger" "Black and other Peppers", "Mustard's" it has been influential and more Geographical in it's popularity with different cultures and ethnic populations is; "Horseradish", and "Wasabi". I'm sure there are other items that may be considered in this category, as there are different ingredients that enhance and bring out the different utilization of the flavors, often particular to the culture. I'll never forget receiving the same generalization from a elder French and a Chinese Chef regarding what seems to work best in satisfying the American Customer. It may be outdated in 2004, but in reflection it was fairly accurate when told to me during the 1970's. Both Chef's agreed: "Sweet & Sour" with a Little Bit of Hot, was what worked best!! At the time it seemed to be the way to go, and in many variations it still works. "LATHIA", the actual paperwork and notes from the research are not available due to confidentially agreements with the client who receives all the information. I have only my own notes for reference that are included, subject to my discretion. Irwin

I hope this posting will help to clarify my previous posting, that I took from the top of my head without referring to my older notes. My firm and I had had research done about the evolution of the "Curry" as it has become established in the various cultures to its current state. This was done prior to opening a Restaurant that features the Cuisines of Portugal, Spain, Africa and South America. We are now involved with a project about the Euro/Asia Spice Routes overland that had existed for over 5000 years where it is recorded that there was a substantial Community of Middle Eastern, Asia Minor and Asian Jews who lived in China who were involved in aspects of the Spice Trade. These "Caravan's" were well guarded and traveled established routes thru Asia, India, Southern Russia and the Coastal areas of Southern Asia, India and the Far East, eventually ending in Europe in later years. These traders introduced the ability of using the stars for directions as well as double entry bookkeeping. The were responsible for the growth of Spain and Portugal by using the skill's kept secret from the public providing "Navigator's" for the Ships of these two countries, this continued until the Spanish Inquisition where the Navigators started to provide the services to the "Dutch" Beginning their growth. One of the major cause of change regarding the distribution and growth of the Spice Trade was the "Black Ship's" that traded over most of the same geography of the Spice Routes and carried more cargo, both ways much faster. There were big influences in this trade by the Jesuits, Franciscans and the Catholic Church. The Portuguese were the first to market the stone ground mixture of powered spices to the Ango-Saxon Countries, and Northern/Eastern Europe that the called "Curry Powder" this apparently was derived from the "Tamil" word, "Karri", and the English word, "Curies" into the spice mixture that was made from: The residue that remained after the Whole Spices were Removed from the Shipping Containers, with the Addition of Turmeric for Color and what I feel was the most important ingredient that came from South America, "Chili". I personally feel that the "Chili" that was pretty much a monopoly of the Spanish and Portuguese Traders was more important to the Cuisines that we now attribute to the present Indian, Chinese, African, Asian and most Cuisines. It took a long time, and it seems to have only been done thru the Catholic Church that the seeds of the Chilli's were allowed to be grown in Africa, India, Europe, And Asia. For many years it was only merchandised in a ground powdered form. The "Chili" that originated in South America apparently had traveled into Mexico to the best of our knowledge during the time of the Aztec's. I'm curious if it was known to the Mayans. It's interesting that the most well known marketed Curry Mixtures were started in India during the time of the British, and all contain Chilli's. The most popular Malay, Thai, Chinese and Japanese Curries almost all contain Chilli's and Ginger. In Mexico I've heard that the availability of many spices and flavorings to the general population concurred thru the influence of the Catholic Church thru the Missions. I also feel that the variations of spicing as we know it thru Persian, Middle Eastern and the majority of countries crossed by the spice traders should be attributed to these mostly Jewish merchants certainly not the Muslims who in reality are more come lately influences. I base most of my information from Research done mostly by Graduate Students under direction of a well known Professor Emeritus that we engaged on these projects. It was not done for purposes of writing articles but for verifying information in researching menus and recipes. My posting is very superficial, as we don't require the details that a historian needs but it is a interesting topic that would make a terrific book, even a series of movies as I feel this is a topic that shows how foods, seeds,seasonings and spices have helped shape the world as we know it and the fortunes of the populations even today. Just think of Thai, Indian, Mexican, Chinese or almost any Cusine with out "Chilli's" or most of the Spices mixed into "Curry". Irwin

The only one I can think of is Baker's on Lake City Way, but it isn't all that pleasant a place. I've been a life-long Baskin Robbins diehard, but it's gone way downhill. Everything tastes like chemical. I have been going to "Baker's" in Lake City for years, My Grand Children consider it their favorite place. The Ice Cream Sundaes, Floats, Shakes, Malts, Italian and Regular Ice Cream Soda's have been consistantly superior. They make a traditional "Monte Cristo" Sandwich that is one of the best anywhere. There 1/2 Burger with Grilled Onions is terrific, the hand Cut Fries are always prepared to order plus the Soups, Breakfast, Lunch and Diner Specials are traditional and appearently from Scratch. I was introduced to "Baker's" by my friend who originally enjoyed it when it was located in "Pikes Market" they started business in 1929, prepare hand dipped chocolates and still make their Cinnamon Buns with Rasins. I'm not sure but it may still be operated by the Original Owners, generally there's a Grand Ma, Daughter or Grand Daughter on duty. I'm curious why MsRamsey whose opinion I respect feels that "Baker's" isn't a pleasant place. I have always been treated very well there, and recently had a delicious lunch there with Jason [Faichai]. Irwin

I feel that "Rachel Laudan's", article is not particularly accurate and her information is most not accurate. The "Curry" as Ango-Saxons and Europeans or Africans have become familiar with evolved to popularity Thur the "Black Ship's" that originated the Spice Trades at a accelerated pace, compared to it's evolution by the overland Spice Routes. The actual marketing as "Curry" began when the Portuguese Spice Traders learned that by taking all the residue, broken pieces and powders remaining after the Whole Spices were Marketed could become very profitable. This was done by Stone Grinding all these products, and adding to them the colorful Ground Turmeric, with Chilli's to balance the flavors was Marketed as "Curry" or mixed Far Eastern Spices. It became very popular in the Ango-Saxon Countries as well as Spain and Northern Africa. Regarding the influence of these types of Spices into Persia this occurred due to it's being on the Spice Routes that started by the Traders who were mostly Jews, who had learned navigation using the Stars. In fact all the Black Ships were navigated by navigators whom were all "Portuguese, many of the Jews" who were able to keep how they navigated from all outsiders, until the Inquisition, when it was brought in Holland. These were the Navigators who were partly responsible to the growth of Spain in the new world. I feel that the Franciscan and Jesuit's introduced much of the blending, mixing and spice variations into the cultures they had influence with, definitely in Mexico, South America, Africa, India, China, Japan and thru out Asia. Sometimes I feel that the most positive aspect of religion has been in the evolution of seeds, spices and variations on food into most cultures. Bread and Tempura into Japan. Many variations such as "Adobo" into the Phillipines. Custard Tarts and many other foods into China. Maybe even "Mole" into Mexico and almost everything spiced into Europe and America. The "Chilli" was the biggest success. I don't want to make this posting into a article, but most of my information came from Graduate Students who we had researching Portugese, Spanish, Jaspanese Food Origins before opening Restaurants. Irwin

My recommendation was based upon achieving a Finished Roast with a time constraint. Utilizing a combination of methodology provides a finished piece of Beef with less time then the ideal method of Slow Smoking. Klink is right about the permutation of Smoke providing a much more decadent finish for the Beef, the low heat, with moist smoke break down the collagen, while still keeping much of the moisture, color and flavor contained. No one is better at finessing any Cut of Meat or Poultry then a experienced Smoke Master like Col Klink, in Seattle peoples eyes tear just talking about the elevation of a simple Sausages he had carefully smoked during the good old days. I'm sorry that I missed meeting him and his wife during his recent Seattle visit. Without curing it very unusual to have Smoke penetrate significantly more then about 1/2 inch deep into the surface of the Beef if being finished Rare/Medium. With a Strip Loin the Whole Loin will be mostly evenly finished except for less then 1 inch from both ends of the piece, especially since there is pretty much of a even Fat Cover and Thickness of the Rectangular Piece. I hope theres some left over that can be refrigerated overnight, then sliced thin for awesome cold Beef Sandwiches, where every bite will be juicy fragrant and at least to me almost mind boggling. Every time I eat a Cold Sliced Smoke Beef Sandwich is very special. I just use the Beef, without any condiments and savor the natural taste. Whatever you do, have a wonderfull 4th of July, i'm glad you've gotten the information soon enough to make this years holiday special for your guests. Irwin

"BETTER LATE THEN NEVER" I checked at "Costco" today and the only "Beef Loin" that they sell as a whole piece in Cryovac is the Boneless Beef Loin more popularly known as the "Strip Loin" that is then generally portioned into New York Steaks or Strip Loin Steaks. I'm not sure about the rest of the States but it's available in some Seattle Supermarkets as Roast or Smoked Beef Loin. It generally packaged this may cooked to Medium Rare and sold Sliced by the pound for Sandwiches. It more expensive then the Top Round Roasts and has most of the Fat Cover trimmed off from the Roasts. It can be prepared by slow smoking with a probe inserted and Smoked to a Internal Temperature of 125/130 degrees, then after being allowed to stand and set the Roast the temperature will rise as much as 10 degrees, after which it can be sliced and served. I recommend scoring the fat cover before Smoking and having a water basin underneath to catch the fat and juices while keeping the Beef moist. This can be defatted and used like Au Jus after smoking. Any type of Marinating or Seasoning your family enjoys may be Incorporated into the Beef. This Smoking may take longer then your prepared, however there is a Short Cut that may be almost as effective. The Short Cut utilizes a combination of Oven Roasting and them Finishing the Roast off for effect and extra flavor in the pre-heated smoker. Dress the Whole Piece as you would if starting the cooking in the smoker. Place the Meat into a Roasting Pan, elevated on a raised Base either a Trivet or a Open Metal Grilling Base. This will allow you to place a liquid base either of Water, Wine, Beef Stock or Chicken Broth, combined with Sliced Onions and Some Shredded Carrots and Diced Celery and Chopped Parsley or any other seasonings you prefer. This Bath on the Bottom of the Beef will keep it moist, prevent over shrinking or drying out and provide you after defatting and straining with a delicious Au Jus Style Dipping Sauce. Put the Meat in the Pan into a Cold Oven Fat Cover on the top. Turn oven on to Broil and allow the Fat Cover to become Seared Off and Browned. Next turn the Roast Over and allow the Bottom to also Sear and Turn Brown. After the Bottom Has Browned, turn it over and lower the oven Temperature to 225 Degrees. Place Meat Probe or Thermometer into the Center of the Loin and allow to Cook until the Temperature rises to about 115/120 Degrees. It okay to occasionally turn the Roast over for appearance, but it not really necessary when cooking at this low temperature. It will probably take about 2 1/2 to 3 hours to bring the Roast to this temperature depending on your oven. It can be allowed to rest and sit, catching all the juices and adding them to the Au Jus for as long as 1 1/2 hours. if longer then it must be refrigerated. To finish the Roast and give it a Smoked Taste and Surface Flavor place the Whole Piece into the Pre-Heated Smoker, cover it with whatever type of surface coating you prefer and it should be ready to eat after being placed into the smoker in 45/60 minutes after the temperature has raised about 10 degrees. After removing the Finished Roast allow it to stand for at least 15 minutes before starting to slice it from end to end, just like you were cutting very thin steaks. [This is called "English Cut"] and pour some of the Au Jus over each serving. "Horseradish Cream Sauce", "English Mustard"or Hot Barbecue Sauce "should be provided for those who enjoy them with the Beef or even a "Hot Salsa". Enjoy and report back how it came out whatever method you used. I feel sorry for all the other eGulleters who haven't had the pleasure of enjoying a Whole Roasted or Smoked Loin especially one cooked rare with the juices dripping out. It actually tastes better then Prime Rib, is leaner in appearance, but just as tender due to the Marbling, especially with slow cooking. It makes a awesome Roast Beef Sandwich prepared this way that I enjoy as much as a Steak. Irwin

This time I'll attempt to mention some observations about both "Wolfgangs" and 'Lugers" that may be interesting to fellow eGulleters. My daughters whose office is at 1 Battery Plaza is a regular customer at both Restaurants, in fact she still uses her "Luger's' account that I established in the late 1960's. She generally is dining with Client's and is treated as a regular at both places, she does like "Wolfgang's" larger menu choices, but acknowledges that the Beef, while tender doesn't have the finesse or character acquired Thur aging equal to the various cuts from "Lugers". Her palette is very experienced, especially since she lived in England and acquired a fondness for Gamy aged meats and poultry. She prefers the Bacon, Lamb Chops, Potatoes and Veggies and Porterhouse Cuts from Lugers, especially the way they are finished from the Broiler. It could be due to the Skill or the Broiler Man or the actual Broiler being used, also at Lugers often Steaks are cut from the Shortloin to order. She originally brought the NYT review to my attention since she was appalled by it's fluff. She remembers the meals she enjoyed growing up in the Hampton's and on 57Th Street in NYC with her honorary Uncle who worked at the NYT as a reviewer and Cookbook author and felt that this was a disappointment of the high standards of the vernable Newspaper. I hope that during my visit this fall to NYC I will have the opportunity to try many of the newer restaurants and explore the older familiar places. NYC is lucky to have more of the best to compare, review and enjoy. Irwin

I rarely review a "Reviewer". but if the FORMERLY venerable New York Times has a person as inept as "Bruni" reviewing Restaurants I'm bewildered. This review should be in some type of "self important trend seeking magazine", but not the NYT. I was associated with a reviewer at the Times for many years, but never have read a so called review that was vaguely as bad as this one, nothing about the nitty gritty that was consequential, but lot's of stylish fluff, about "Arteries", mine were sure effected by all the gloop and syrup. I question the veracity of the review. Irwin

If they haven't lost the magic of the Island's since closing their Hawaii Restaurant it's possible that "Canlis" Restaurant will do it right. During most of the years that there was a "Canlis" in Honolulu, they were always in the Winners or close in the "Mai Tai" Favorites or Best ratings. If the place where your ordering your Mai Tai doesn't carry "Dammerra Rum", to top it off with then your not getting the real thing. Irwin

Maybe I'm dumb, not with it or whatever. But what that place or any of these "Glatt Kosher" operations have to do with being a "Bistro" or "Pan Asian" or anything traditional doesn't seem to come together in my mind or stomach. It seems that many Chef's and Operators are going for business success without taking into consideration that the reality of being Kosher is that a fairly high percentage of your patrons will be expecting some traditional Jewish Type dishes be incorporated into your menus. Especially since many people aren't preparing many of these items at home. The large majority of Customers who frequent these establishments may not be keeping kosher at home, on not necessarily even Jewish but very likely be entertaining friends or business associates who observe Kasherus. I'm not sure if it's a good investment or not two risky to start any business with out considering your customers taste, customs or expectations in the NYC Kosher Marketplace. I remember the risk taken when daring to open "Schmulka Bersteins" with a Chinese Menu [but still keeping the deli/restaurant menus] and how long it took to be anything more then a novelty. The next place will be a "Mock Traif Treats" or what ? Being away from NYC I'm curious about how many of these type places are succeeding and where they are located to build up a regular customer base ? Irwin

I'm ironic and sardonic, BUT. I've checked out these new "Authorized" APIZZA Places and the 2 I've tried that were given approval and authorization aren't even close to being nearly as good as any NYC Pizza Joint that actually gives a dam. The "Tutta Bella" in Seattle is pathetic, sure the principal owner went to Naples to learn the trade, but I've been to his place 7 times and he has never been present. The Oven in all the times I've ever been in the place has never been properly fired up to the required temperatures, nor have his employees known how to correctly work the dough to put together a pie. The fillings have been tasty, but never authentic and the most positive thing to date has been the very pleasant salads served with good value. I'm being fussy, but it's because I had the honor of being in Naples with James Beard and trying the Pizzas recommended by the Institute prior to opening a NYC Restaurant with a Italian Wood Burning Oven. The best Neapolitan Pizza that I've enjoyed east of NYC was in of all places "Phoenix, Az." at "Pizzeria Bianco" operated hands on by owner "Chris Bianco" from Italy. I learned about this place from "Peter Rinehart" author of the book, " American Pie: My Search for the Perfect Pizza" it's a interesting book and worth checking out. Aside from the pies in Phoenix I'll stick with NYC's Metro Area, Connecticut and Boston for my favorites. This includes any pies I've tried in Italy. I've had excellent Pizza from Gas, Coal, Wood Burning, Kerosene, Diesel and Electric Ovens and it all was based on the Chefs experience, heat utilization and timing to do it right seems like alchemy. My son-in-law growing up in Bensonhurst and Flatbush worked at "L&B Spumoni Gardens" and we had his wedding rehearsal dinner/snack outside there on a Saturday afternoon at about the same time eGullets trying the place, be prepared for the crowd if the weathers nice. He also worked on and off in Coney Islands, "Tortinos" since he was schoolmates with the son who operates now. Irwin Posted this but forgot something that I originally wanted to post. Being Jewish, non-observant but respectful I somehow associate what the ""Associazione della Vera Pizza Napolentana" has recently begun to do providing accreditation to Pizza Places Worldwide is something like a "Rabbi" giving his Hecksher or Kassaruth Approval to a establishment under his auspices for a fee. Then not following up. [Doesn't Happen] So far after only a few authorizations I'm begining to question the motives and standards this implies to those of us who seek the PIZZA Grail.

My mother had her engagement shower at the Nom Wah Tearoom and Bakery in 1935 we still have some pictures of the large China Trays of Dim Sum that they served and the Lovely Cream Fruit Cake that they Baked for the occasion. At that time she had lunched there regularly with other workers from the area. I used to enjoy eating at several Chinese Basement Eating Clubs that had no name in English and the only non-Chinese customers were Police, Firemen and Produce Workers who used to eat there in the AM hours. I actually continued eating at some of these Clubs until 1965 when I moved to Hong Kong. My father used to go in the early AM hours to the 2 Martinson's Counter Coffee Shops that were open before the 1920's. They served good, dark rich coffee with Sweetened Condensed Milk or Regular Milk forever, could be that their still open. There was a Restaurant that served Chinese Food and Excellent Steaks either Rib or New York at I think 11 Mott Street up 1/2 Flight of steps. again to mostly Police, Firemen, Walter Winchell and Night Workers including many cab drivers. What was unusual is that all night until Breakfast they had 2 Jewish Grandma's as waitress, who knew what most customers ordered as soon as you walked into the place. The place with it's warped wooden floors and dented tin walls and ceiling looked like original 19th Century Decor. Last time I ate there was around 1970. Irwin

Ah, the biscuits, and they served a pretty good steak, too. As for the pie, I was just reminiscing about that over in this thread. OT only a little. I gave my daughter 8 pie tins stamped "Lundy's" they I had used for years that were one of the few things she requested recently as she feels that they still are better then any pie tins shes been able to buy. Thinking back I remember often going out of my way using the excuse of buying a pie to enjoy a dozen Clams on the 1/2 Shell and a dozen "Oysters" from Lundy's own beds on Great South Bay. They charged a $2.00 Deposit for the tins when your purchased a whole pie, refundable. "Tappen's" on Nostrand Avenue up the block from Lundy's also make the Biscuits almost as good as Lundy's but never came close on the "Shore Dinner". I think the "Shore Dinner" also included "Roast Chicken". Irwin

OOOOOPS !!! One thing I forgot to mention in my "TRADITION" posting that should be taken into consideration. The Real Estate that Peter Luger's is located on, and other Parcels across the street and in the area are opened by the same owners and operators as "Peter Luger's" and that is actually considerably more valuable the whatever the Restaurant is grossing on Cash Flow. I feel that patronizing and supporting a establishment like Peter Luger's is important. I am not happy that places like "Lundy's", "Gage & Tollners" or especially the "Joes" closed as they can never be enjoyed again. If anyone remembers a original "Lundy's Shore Dinner" that started with amazing "Biscuits" and ended with the best slice of "Pie", I've every eaten. This was in a Restaurant that was able to serve in excess of 5000 dinners on Mothers Day. When I visit most places I always attempt to enjoy a meal at the older, well established places that maintain their quality and reputation. If and when they go, part of our tradition goes with them. I'm not saying that older is better, but as a example I hope my Great Grandchildren can enjoy a meal at the old traditional 'Chez Pannisse or French Laundry". Irwin

Josh: I'm very cognizant of the Meat Trade in all aspects. I agree that if I was utilizing the Beef as served at "Luger's" I could definitely make it taste better and more enjoyable. Now comes the BIG BUT. I respect TRADITION and feel that very few Restaurants go as far as "Peter Luger" does to continue to follow the axion of: "If it's not broken, don't fix it" thats exactly what they attempt to maintain. Sure at times it gets silly, even annoying to some customers. Like the Credit Card Business. Why "Just Because" its a hook for the place, again Tradition. There aren't any surprises for returning customers, but there is a greater understanding and comparison of that the best should be equal to the expectations. I'm questioning that the quality isn't up to previous standards, since that part of the operation still try to do things as they have always been done traditionally. The things that bother me most aren't about "Peter Luger's", but mostly about the "USDA" since they have permitted for whatever excuses and reasons to allow packers to much largess in there tactic's to tamper with all the Meat and Poultry products that eventually are brought to the public. To me theres no mystic about a "Great Steak" the truth is most of us can come pretty close to achieving that in our own homes and backyards. There is in most parts of the country good sources of high quality product available, and the home cook has a advantage in that they can select only the finest and best cuts by sight to prepare for their meal, while the Restaurant buys the whole pieces and cuts to suit the preparation and anticipated business. True there are operators who only order specific cuts of portion controlled items for a premium price but generally beef processed this way doesn't have much character, flavor or taste. It does look nice though. Whatever they do at Luger's it's always routine, it works for them. When I eat there I'm inclined to order the Lamb Chops or Hamburger Steak plus sides. I personally am not a Porterhouse Fan, but I do enjoy the way customers dig into their Platters. I rarely am in NYC but whenever I can I try to make a pilgrimage to both locations of "Peter Luger's", enjoying the contrast. I also try out whatever other places I'm curious about, especially those that still provide "TRADITIONS." Irwin

I have been fortunate to have operated 2 Restaurants where I was able to actually take the customers orders and then return to the kitchen to prepare the Entrées. In one of the Restaurants that was located in Honolulu, Hi. I actually had a Menu prepared that clearly stated " Menu for when the Chefs away," it listed dishes that my staff was capable of preparing that would be done up to the standards established. The majority of our patrons were regulars and had no problems with this when it occurred. It also helped that one of my partners was always on the floor and took everyones order. We served about 125/175 covers nightly almost all by reservation. This was at the "Lisboa Restaurant" where we featured Seafood, Spanish, Portuguese, South American and African specialties on Oahu. The other Restaurant was in Northern California located in Fort Bragg it was smaller and we generally served 60/90 covers nightly. Almost all by reservation. I also took every order and prepared or set up every entrée. My wife was also in the Kitchen finishing and plating all dishes. We served Seafood, Some Spanish and Portuguese Dishes and Lamb, Poultry and Beef. It didn't take very long for our reputation to become established, but if I wasn't able to be there for my customers we couldn't open. Since our hours were limited this never caused any problem and we were able to operate on schedule. This is very difficult to attempt, but if your the right person and know how to time your seatings, plus able to organize your order taking it's a exhilarating experience to accomplish pleasing so many customers every day. It does take some time to wind down and your staff is very important to continuing this type of operation. It was interesting that we were able to utilize and introduce in to the market place so many under utilized items that have now become well known. Irwin

I've been privileged to have eaten at almost all the restaurants mentioned in the article. In fact I even supplied many of the places with Meat and other provisions thru associates in Honolulu who helped develop the Hong Kong style and Vietnamese products into the Hawaii Market. The article is interesting but the most important effect on the local Hawaiian appreciation of Chinese Food wasn't mentioned. The type of food most enjoyed by Westerners and Locals evolved mostly from the menu of the "McCully Chop Suey", where the large portions of reasonable priced dishes became the local norm. It's hours of operation until the early AM hours made it a popular place for all the night people and entertainers. The food has always been consistent, quick and tasty but very Island Orientated. The same or very similar type dishes were served in Chinatown and thru out Oahu. The 1st authentic Chinese Noodle/Wonton Restaurant opened on Hotel Street in the 1970's to packed business. It served Congee, Noodles and Wonton, Suey Kow prepared as close to the real thing as possible. It was owned and operated by a lovely young lady. The next Restaurant to enter the market was the "China House" at Ala Moana Center that offered Hong Kong Style "Dim Sum" and Banquet preparations. It didn't take long for other places to open or adapt. After the success of these business to me the most important Authentic Cantonese Style Restaurant that had the greatest effect on Hawaiian Chinese Food opened. It featured "Taiwan Style Late Night Snacks", Small Dishes and Breakfast. A authentic Cantonese Roast Section and Fresh Live Seafood prepared to order in any style requested. There was parking available, plus it was open 24/7. This was opened by a expert Hong Kong Restraunter who leased the Restaurant from China Airlines who owned the Hotel Property based on the assumption that he would provide service and Taiwan style meals for the flight crews who stayed at the Hotel. This was a opportunity for the Chinese Community and recent immigrants and students to enjoy Food prepared as they remembered. After these changes took place the rest of the Market adapted and followed but the traditional places continue to do well. There were several Northern Style Restaurants as well as Hakka, Vegen and Szechwan Places that were welcomed and added to the variety with several opening branches in Seattle, Wa. Hawaii also pioneered in the Asian Fusion Foods and the Thai Restraunts popular now everywhere in America. Irwin

There were two Chinese Restaurants operating on Southern Boulevard in the Bronx between 163rd St and Westchester Avenue that opened in the late 1920's that were still being operated by the same families. There were also several in Flatbush and other parts of Brooklyn still in business. If I'm not mistaken there are several spots in China Town that are still operating since the 1st World War that are owned by family groups. Irwin

There is no better selection of Beef Loins served at any restaurant better or equal to the quality served at "Peter Luger's". They have established themselves with all the major wholesalers that Break Up Hind Quarters of Beef for the NYC Market. The family buyers from Luger's are offered first choice for the type of Short Loins that meet their criteria for several important reasons. [1] They are there in person every day that the Market opens. [2] They always have paid a premium for the right of first refusal. [3] They are one of the only Restaurants who are allowed to Stamp their Beef. [4] They are one of the only Restaurants who are allowed to sign off and pay by Memo in the NYC Wholesale Meat Market. This was established years ago and accepted by the Wholesales, Breakers and Jobbers [5] Peter Luger's is the only buyer at many wholesalers provided space in their coolers to Hang and Dry Age their Beef after it's been stamped, tagged, weighed and dated after being selected. Peter Luger absorbs the cost of serum loss and shrinkage for this beef until it's consolidated and delivered. Another important thing to consider is that NO Steakhouse can ever be absolutely sure that every cut of beef from the Strip Loin section of the Short Loin will have excellent, taste , character or tenderness when served to the customer. In the Porterhouse, Striploin or T Bone Cuts the Top of the loin [strip] sometimes may have been knocked or bruised prior to the beef being slaughtered. This could have occurred months before the Beef was feed lotted and brought to market. What happens is that this small area is not noticeably different when being butchered or cooked to order. It may taste Chewy, Sinewy or even Tough while looking terrific. Every Good reputable Steakhouse will immediately replace your Steak whenever this happens. It is pretty rare, but still happens. This can be on a whole Steak or just a small part of the Steak. On the Fillet or Bottom Cut of the Loin this doesn't happen since the Fillet is protected from Bruising by a thick layer of exterior fat on the outside and the Thick Cut of the Loin Bone on the inside. Any Restaurant is vulnerable to this happening. When Restaurants are purchasing Graded Beef Boxed and Cryovaced the Marbling is similar but there is no comparison to the carefully dry aged cut. Also dry aging caused considerable shrinkage, and exterior trim loss that doesn't occur with Cryovaced Boxed Beef thats in a Vacuum Packed with enzymes and serum breaking down the beef and adding tenderness but not the flavor or character of dry aging. The next time your Steak doesn't taste right at Luger's, let them know and have the Kitchen check your Steak. If it's not right they will make sure to replace your Steak but you can be sure that the will verify that the Beef was bruised. I wouldn't be surprised that there may be customers who will complain that the Loin Part of their Steak wasn't as tender as the Fillet. Thats just the way a beef loins supposed to taste, but not everyones aware of this and there expectations of what a Porterhouse or T Bone Steak should taste need to be explained to them. Irwin

The very popular "Nesselrole Pie" that was featured for many years at many of NYC better Restaurants was made by "Hortense Spier's Bakery". All of their pies were made with better quality natural ingredients, were consistant and never duplicated for taste, texture and flavor. Irwin