Poisoned! Who do we sue?

[sunbeam]

And not by anyone here either!

What is the score when a mich starred restau in London knocks me and the wife out for 48 hrs with what I suspect were infected scallops (the only dish we both had)? We felt ill almost immediately on getting home and our saturday after the friday meal was rather horrible and I'll spare you the details. But a day and a half later we have just managed to get a small amount of food into us and to stay awake for more than 30 minutes.

Scallops, like all shellfish, accumulate toxins by the way they feed and cooking heat does not destroy those toxins. The kitchen cannot be held responsible as no H&S rules would have been broken. The supplier (Scottish) is surely to blame? Possibly harvesting scallops outside of permitted areas to make money? The scallop industry is worth 17million a year apparently.

I feel someone should be given a hard time. Or is shellfish poisoning (unlike say, cross contamination) just unlucky in the eyes of the law?

I hope it won't put me off scallops permanently, but right now I never want to eat one again. And if I ever do, it won't ever be with the same unalloyed enjoyment

S

[jackal10]

I-am-not-a-lawyer but I would start with the restaurant. They have a duty of care not to poison their customers, and you have a contractual relationship with them.

They in turn may sue their suppliers, but that is up to them. More liekly they will try and settle, for exsmple with a free meal...

[The Viking]

I think you can go about it 2 ways, depending on whether you want to go for a "make up meal" or whether you're seeking a financial compensation:

In a calm manner by phone or (maybe preferably) by mail inform the restaurant of the incidence; most restaurant managers/chefs will be aware of such misfortunes, and in a fairly well-documented case will immediately offer a meal "on the house" with all the trimmings.

If the feign ignoreance, or if you're going for compensation be aware that the burden of the proof lies with you.

If you can prove that your malaise is caused by a toxin-producing bacteria, no problem, you definetely have a strong case and any supplier/restaurant should seek to find an amicable solution instantly. Unfortunately, in most of these cases you have to show a certain foresight by already having stool samples analyzed during your period of illness., although some might also show up on serological tests.

Be aware though, that your infection might also have been caused by a chef having an infected cut on his hand, and transmitting a toxin-producing staphylococcal infection to your food (scallops and similar food is particularly prone to this as they are not meant to be overcooked), so that the restaurant might be to blame.

FWIW: I had a similar incident 6 years back in Sweden, was able to prove htat it was a staphylococcal infection, and was compensated with USD 1,800.-

Never going back there again, though..

[Tim Hayward]

And not by anyone here either!

What is the score when a mich starred restau in London knocks me and the wife out for 48 hrs with what I suspect were infected scallops (the only dish we both had)? We felt ill almost immediately on getting home and our saturday after the friday meal was rather horrible and I'll spare you the details. But a day and a half later we have just managed to get a small amount of food into us and to stay awake for more than 30 minutes.

Scallops, like all shellfish, accumulate toxins by the way they feed and cooking heat does not destroy those toxins. The kitchen cannot be held responsible as no H&S rules would have been broken. The supplier (Scottish) is surely to blame? Possibly harvesting scallops outside of permitted areas to make money? The scallop industry is worth 17million a year apparently.

I feel someone should be given a hard time. Or is shellfish poisoning (unlike say, cross contamination) just unlucky in the eyes of the law?

I hope it won't put me off scallops permanently, but right now I never want to eat one again. And if I ever do, it won't ever be with the same unalloyed enjoyment

S

←

Sunbeam, I don't know if you're a Londoner or not but it's worth noting that our fair city has been pretty much laid low in the last couple of months with a very unpleasant gastrointestinal virus. In the UK this is usually diagnosed as nonbacterial gastroenteritis (though the US prefers norovirus) and at this time of the year it is the second most diagnosed illness after the common cold. The symptoms are exactly as you describe after your meal.

Around two out of three people I know have been knocked out by it in the last few months and anyone who has eaten out within 56 hrs of the onset of symptoms has naturally tended to blame the restaurant.

Noroviruses are transmitted by the faecal/oral route and show symptoms within 24 hrs in those who aren't immune (as far as I remember, about one in three). Most of my close friends have kids at school so we'd expect a high level of infection.

I would reckon that anyone eating in any kind of mass catering operation during such an outbreak is gunning for trouble if only through the increased exposure to a range of individuals in the same environment as food.

The chances of the fresh scallops on two different plates being bad enough to knock out the diners simultaneously are fairly low. A good prep cook cleaning the scallops from a decent supplier will spot maybe one bad one in two hundred fresh ones. If two get past him and the chef, at once, onto two consecutive plates, he's the unluckiest man alive.

On the other hand, the chances of two people eating anything handled by the same people, in the same restaurant, during an outbreak of NBG going down with it are considerably higher.

In short, you may well have got it in the restaurant, and possibly from the scallops. But the balance of probabilities is that it had nothing to do with the ingredients and everything to do with the hand hygiene of a single individual amongst the 20 who touched your food or got close to it in the restaurant. Without a really comprehensive test - for which, I take it, there are no surviving samples - a lawyer's going to have trouble proving you didn't get it from the bloke sitting next to you on the tube. The chances of there being a case against the shellfish supplier are tiny.

If your negotiation skills are good and you're either very polite or connected to the mob, you might get a meal comped.

Other than that, I hope you guys feel better now

[gfron1]

I would slightly modify a previous post...is your goals financial compensation, a free meal, OR helping the restaurant improve so others don't go through what you went through. Why a lawsuit - it sounds like a very American response (embarrassedly joking of course). If you got sick off their scallops, then so did others. If your goal is to help them, then simply go talk to them with that spirit in mind.

[ajnicholls]

Food poisoning, suspected or proven, is a notifiable disease to the centre for communicable disease control and public health. The restaurant therefore have an obligation to take this seriously. In serious cases, public health will investigate the suspected source - this is what happens when butchers sell meat infected with E. coli etc.

No idea about the legal standpoint, but a medical view would be that shellfish poisoning is difficult to eliminate 100%. It is much more likely to be due to that than unsanitary practices in the kitchens.

Adam

[tafkap4d]

Contact the restaurant and advise them of the particulars. They will no doubt ask if they can do something for your inconvenience. Lawsuit for this is not an option - now...I am sure you can find an attorney that will take this case (as my colleagues are a bit...over the top at times) but I don't think the outcome will be worth the fees.

Did you incur any medical expenses? Was this fatal? I probably would not want a meal there after what happened but perhaps you could be compensated financially for what you spent on the meal.

Hope this helps.

[Emily_R]

Very sorry to hear about what sounds like a miserable experience... But I must say I agree with gfron1 -- I was dismayed to see the "who do we sue" in the headline... Alert the restaurant, as they should know that they may have a bad batch... Perhaps ask for a comped meal, but other wise, that's life. There doesn't have to be anyone "to blame" -- even the scottish scallop supplier was quite likely fishing exactly where they were supposed to, when some scallops that ate something they shouldn't have were scooped up by the boat.

Again, very sorry you had to go through that, and on a vacation no less, but that just doesn't mean someone has to "pay" through a lawsuit!

[gethin]

Having, last weekend, been stricken by the nonbacterial gastroenterirtis that Mr Hayward mentions , I'd hazard a guess that he's probably right.

That said, of you'r in a suing mood, why not go after Bernard Mathews and A A Gill. They are a pretty ghastly pair !

Gethin

[Sneakeater]

Don't take this as legal advice or anything, but I think you'd have a hard time proving that the scallops caused the disease.

And remember, in England (unlike the US) the losing side has to pay the winning side's legal fees.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[jayrayner]

Don't take this as legal advice or anything, but I think you'd have a hard time proving that the scallops caused the disease.

And remember, in England (unlike the US) the losing side has to pay the winning side's legal fees.

←

A professional eater writes... on three occasions during my tenure in the critic's chair, I ahve suspected my companion - happily never me - may have been poisoned. I couldn't prove it because to do so would have required tracing the bug from the kitchen, on to the plate, into the victim and out again. So I was, legally, not able to mention it.

Plus... looking closely at the issue as I had cause to do, it became clear that the symptoms of food poisoning do not make themselves felt within an hour or two of the meal. It takes a few hours longer. In short, I'm with Tim. I suspect you got hit with the awful bug that laid low my father and many of my colleagues last week. It is, I know, a dreadful experience. But it's almost certainly not the scallop's fault.

[beepop]

sue, good luck.

first you need to go to your doctor with a stoole sample. They will have it tested and if the results identify something that could have come from the restaurant then they will hand it to the local food hygiene officer. They will then contact the restaurant and request a traceability report and hopefully a sample of whatever your doctor identified as the source. If not they will examine working practices in the kitchen and take samples of other food to see how clean it is. Once they are happy that everything is being done by the book there is not any further action that can be taken. If here is any evidence of malpratice then the officer will adivse them what to do to rectify and worse case senario, close them down until they do - but this is rare.

If the scallop was the cause then you probably could have smelt it before eating it. Also, you would not have been sick for 6-8 hours. You could have had an allergic reaction but if you have eaten scallops before and been fine, then it won't be a reaction.

The restaurant are under no obligation to do anything. They do not have to offer anything nor should they until it can be proved that it has come from them. As Tim has suggested, you could have picked up an airborne bug during the course of the day. If a restaurant gives a free meal when someone reports food poisioning then the likely hood is you will be posied again so why bother with it. Also, if offered a free meal, do you really want to eat somewhere who is not following due procedure.

Tell the restaurant by all means so they can check everything but until your doctor as some poo, nothing can be proven!

[Infrasonic]

Contact the Environmental Health dept. at the local council for the restaurant.

I

[ajnicholls]

Tell the restaurant by all means so they can check everything but until your doctor as some poo, nothing can be proven!

This isn't quite accurate. If a patient attends a doctor with what they believe to be food poisoning, the doctor is obliged to report it. Waiting for a postitive stool culture would be dangerous should action be needed. I've had to do it on numerous occasions.

It's highly unlikely that anything could be proven now anyway, so I wouldn't reccommend suing, but I agree with everyone that contacting the restaurant is the way forward. Any half decent place, and especially as the place has a star. Ensure that you speak to the manager and they should deal with you appropriately.

Adam

[Matthew Grant]

I can only reiterate Tim's post. Upon returning from Madrid 3 weeks ago I woke up with a horrible case of what I initially suspected was food poisoning and I blamed it on some chorizo I had eaten. Further examination showed that me and my girlfriend had eaten exactly the same things over the prvious 24 hours and she was feeling fine. I spent the next 3 days in bed miserably ill and unable to eat anything. Another friend of mine ended up in hospital on a drip overnight after a similar thing occured to him before Christmas.

This is a nasty bug and it's really been dong the rounds, it's easy to blame upset stomachs on food poisoning but it's not always the case.

Stomach bug sinks QE2

Stephen Hendry sinks brown

300 Soldiers knocked out in surprise attack

Edited February 19, 2007 by Matthew Grant (log)

[JudyB]

I can only reiterate Tim's post. Upon returning from Madrid 3 weeks ago I woke up with a horrible case of what I initially suspected was food poisoning and I blamed it on some chorizo I had eaten. Further examination showed that me and my girlfriend had eaten exactly the same things over the prvious 24 hours and she was feeling fine. I spent the next 3 days in bed miserably ill and unable to eat anything. Another friend of mine ended up in hospital on a drip overnight after a similar thing occured to him before Christmas.

This is a nasty bug and it's really been dong the rounds, it's easy to blame upset stomachs on food poisoning but it's not always the case.

Agreed, although the original post did mention both of them becoming ill within 48 hours. If they both became ill within a short space of time I am inclined to suspect food poisoning, but identiyfing the exact cause is always hard.

Duncan and I suffered from what we think was food poisoning about two years ago. On that occasion we both started feeling ill at about the same time (within less than an hour of each other). What we couldn't tell was if it was caused by our home-made lunch 4 hours before (including Taleggio and pre-cooked ham) or the steak which we had both had at a pub for lunch the day before. I suspect that we should have reported this in case it was the pub, but to be honest we were feeling too rotten to be bothered.

I would agree with Infrasonic - advise the appropriate Environmental Health Office. That will allow them to decide whether or not the restaurant was at fault and to suggest any required changes to the food handling/storage there.

[Carlovski]

Yep, I had the bug too, as did my housemate, my Mum, sister and her kids (Independently as I haven't seen them since christmas)

Quite nasty isn't it!

[sunbeam]

Yes please do believe me when I say that the 'who do I sue' bit in my subject header was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek.

It was all very nasty, although a quick google on the subject reveals it could have been worse.

I was just interested in what people thought. I don't think it would be worth pursuing it as the restaurant have responded professionally and promptly and I don't think they could have prevented it. I hope they chase their suppliers up though as I am still inclined to blame the naughty shellfish.

I've only ever been poisoned once before, when I was 15 and living in France, a mussel at lunch did the damage and I (apparently) went face first into my dinner soup about six hours later and woke up in bed about 12 hrs after that.

So at 47 I guess I can't complain and I feel much better now. I live in South London so I have more chance of being gunned down than getting another dose this side of senility!

I hope

S

[Bapi]

My son and I also suffered from a dose of the "bug" last year. It wasn't a very pleasant couple of days.

But sunbeam's post reminded me of our honeymoon six years ago. It involved a gastro tour around the country, with two days ooop North which I won't name, but is named after two types of Crustacea. The first night we had a Fruits der Mer between us- which was superb and has yet to be bettered. The second night we asked them to prepare a huge plate of langoustines as a special. All was fine till the early hours when we both became very ill. She more so than I. I didn't complain the next day as such- partly because we had asked for the dish specially and more so since we pragmatically thought - if you love and order as much seafood; eventually the odds are going to stack against you. In all honesty, I only remember one langoustine head that looked a tad dodgy, which I obviously didn't eat. So whilst we have blamed the incident on the langoustines for years- I suppose that our illness could too just have been a bug.

That six hour journey down south to Moulsford and then Bray the next day was the worst of my life though.

[HannaBanana]

I was lucky enough to eat in El Bulli last year (Brilliant). The following night, I ate in Roses, at a restaurant I won't mention and had (amongst other dishes), Clams. One of our party felt they weren't at their finest, and refrained. The rest of us tucked in....

Woke at 1am to the fiercest dose of tummy-ness ever. After a sleepless night, there then followed a three-hour drive to Barcelona. Followed by a three-hour flight. Followed by the hour drive home. Followed by the surprise birthday for my boyfriend. Some of the longest hours of my life. I shudder to recall the experience....

...Anyhow, back to OP. You'll have a job proving it, particularly given the prevalence of tummy bugs at the moment. Here in Ireland, medical community and the media alike have dubbed it, the self explanatory "winter vomiting bug".

[naebody]

Would it be fair to say that the average well-travelled restaurant diner will usually build up a level of resistance to the nasties that routinely crop up inside a commercial kitchen? Also, there's a big "I'm not a doctor" disclaimer around this, but I'd have thought that if something routinely objectionable enters your system, it will tend to find its own way out pretty quick.

There's some really interesting statistics on Wikipedia about this, eg: there are 26,000 foodborne infections annually in the US per 100,000 people, compared with 3,400 in the UK and just 1,210 in France. So is American food preparation generally less hygenic, or does the average diet reduce their tolerance?

Edit: I guess a third possibility is that Americans are often hypocondriacs who are keen to apportion blame, while the average Brit remains stoic even when the world's falling out of them.

Edited February 19, 2007 by naebody (log)

[the greek]

Sunbeam

Did you contact your doctor?

Did you supply a stool sample?

Did you contact your local EHO?

"I feel someone should be given a hard time" What did YOU have for lunch or dinner previously?

[ajnicholls]

Also, there's a big "I'm not a doctor" disclaimer around this, but I'd have thought that if something routinely objectionable enters your system, it will tend to find its own way out pretty quick. 

I am a doctor and this statement is true of some, but definitely not all forms of food poisioning. Salmonella is particularly slow growing, so can take a while before symptoms show. Shellfish food poisioning tends to be pretty rapid, but all these things depend on the concentration of the bacteria present in the food before you eat it, ie. the more rancid the scallop, the quicker you'll throw up.

Adam

[sunbeam]

Sunbeam

Did you contact your doctor?

Did you supply a stool sample?

Did you contact your local EHO?

"I feel someone should be given a hard time" What did YOU have for lunch or dinner previously?

←

Easy there officer, shouldn't you read me my rights first? And what about that call to my lawyer?

Seriously though, my "who do I sue" was more rhetorical than anything else. I was interested in the answer. No I did not contact my doctor, I was too ill for that and Saturday and Sunday are not good days to get an appointment with the NHS anyway. I did not declare myself an emergency as I feel the NHS has enough on its plate already and I knew I was not in danger of dying, even though it felt like it.

I have no idea who or where my local EHO is. Local to whom? Me or the restaurant?

As both my wife and I had different meals in the previous 48 hours, my Poirot-like powers of deduction decided to rule out any other source of the infection. When I say someone should be given a hard time I mean no more than a talking to. I am not litigious by nature.

S

[Scott]

It is unlikely to be this meal.

so you've not been "poisoned at all". sorry, you'll have to sue yourself for your evening meal the night before