The Sourdough Starter Topic

[sanrensho]

This is the base sourdough muffin recipe I use. It is very adaptable for various add-ins, and produces a nice tall muffin. My "go to" muffin recipe.

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/blueberrymuffins.html

The KA sourdough waffles are nice and chewy, but the salt needs to be reduced significantly (3/4 tsp!).

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/RecipeDisplay?RID=93

[weinoo]

  Actually, I've tried sourdough from a couple local bakeries and they weren't sour either, which makes me suspect that the local lactobacilli may be inherently degenerate. 

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I'm wondering if those really sour breads, from say Boudin in San Francisco, don't have something else added to the dough to up the sour factor.

Checking the Boudin website, it's impossible to find the ingredients to any of their breads; I have an email going out asking them for an ingredient/nutritional listing. As a matter of fact, even their link to nutritional info doesn't give one any info.

And check out King Arthur Instant Sourdough Flavor - 12 oz.

[annecros]

Anne, It's not clear to me how much of this excess sourdough starter you have lying around. A vat of the stuff, like a professional bakery? (Yikes.) A cup or two? A half-cup? Anyway, the consensus of the board seems to be (and I agree) that the best method is to maintain and store a small amt of starter, then build it up to a congenial amount for the specific thing you wish to bake.

I first learned about sourdough starter methods from the Cheese Board people in Berkeley, in a class, and also from their cookbook, Collective Works. Later I picked up more sourdough how-to's from a local professional baker. Here's how I handle my sourdough starters:

To Maintain Sourdough Starter. I feed my starters only once a month if I am not using them for baking. Really. They have lasted for years in the fridge with this method.

Once a month, I remove the starter from the fridge and discard all but 1/4 cup of starter. In a nonreactive bowl, I combine the 1/4 cup starter, 1/2 cup water, and 2/3 cup bread flour. I cover it and let stand at room temperature for 48 hours. Then I make the starter mixture again: I discard all but 1/4 cup of starter, then combine 1/4 cup starter with 1/2 cup water and 2/3 cup bread flour. I pour it into a clean nonreactive covered container, such as a glass jar or a plastic container.  Then I immediately return the starter to the refrigerator after the second feeding. It's good for another month.

To Prepare Sourdough Starter for Baking: To reinvigorate the starter for baking, I remove it from the refrigerator, and discard all but 1/4 cup of starter. In a nonreactive bowl, I combine the 1/4 cup starter, 1/2 cup water, and 2/3 cup bread flour. I cover it and let stand at room temperature for 24 hours. Then I discard all but 1/4 cup of the starter, combine the 1/4 cup starter with 1 cup of water and 1 1/3 cups bread flour. I let stand for an additional 12 hours, or up to 24 hours, before baking. Yield: about 1 3/4 cup ready-for-baking starter. Before you begin baking, remember to set aside 1/4 cup of starter to replenish your supply of starter. With this method, I have to reinvigorate the starter 3 days before baking.

For rye or whole wheat starter: For the second feeding, I use 1 cup of water, 1 cup bread flour, and 1/3 cup rye or whole wheat flour.

Anne, I've never mixed leftover sourdough starter into quickbreads, but based on the sourdough pancake principle, why not? As long as you adjust for the flour and liquid in the original recipe. I assume the starter is there for flavor, and you would rely on baking powder or baking soda for leavening.

If you have lots of leftover starter, I also recommend the sourdough pizza dough recipe from the Cheese Board, which is my favorite all-time pizza crust:

http://books.google.com/books?id=W-3C3KeeJ...num=2&ct=result

If you do any quickbread or other recipes with your leftover starter, could you let us know your results?

MikeJ, I once began a batch of sourdough bread in the evening, started to let it rise, then realized I would probably have to bake it off at 2AM. So I stuck it in the fridge. I think it stayed there for a couple days. I was busy. But I baked it off anyway, and the dough was significantly more sour than my usual loaves. If I remember correctly, the rise was OK, though the dough was probably overproofed by then. Perhaps you can experiment with various times for a long slow rise in the fridge, to bring the dough to the sourness you like?

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Thanks!

It is generally a cup or less that I have in excess. I think I may have ended up with a cup and a half a time or two following different recipes and instructions from all over the place - I've kept my plain starter over a year and have kept it wet. My rye starter is only a little over a month old.

I did dump some in a basic muffin recipe yesterday. I was disappointed - the flavor was great, but the muffin was very dry and sort of tough to the tooth. I am going to look for a richer (fatter) muffin recipe, maybe. Or maybe something calling for potato flour or something to keep things softer. I see no reason why it shouldn't work with any recipe calling for baking powder, right? Isn't there an issue with baking soda for leavening and the chemical reaction with sourdough?

I am not quite at the point where I can overcome my nurturing compulsion to let them go a month.

Anyway, hubby took the extra muffins to work, and had no trouble getting rid of them. Some of those folks don't have the opportunity to eat something baked fresh very often, so even my castoffs are good to them.

Thanks.

I've seen that "Instant Sourdough Flavor" as well Mitch, and wondered about it.

[slkinsey]

  Actually, I've tried sourdough from a couple local bakeries and they weren't sour either, which makes me suspect that the local lactobacilli may be inherently degenerate.

I'm wondering if those really sour breads, from say Boudin in San Francisco, don't have something else added to the dough to up the sour factor.

Checking the Boudin website, it's impossible to find the ingredients to any of their breads; I have an email going out asking them for an ingredient/nutritional listing. As a matter of fact, even their link to nutritional info doesn't give one any info.

A few things. First of all, "sourdough" is a bit of as misnomer. Sure, the bread is "sour" compared to bread leavened with commercial yeast, but not necessarily the lip-puckering sour that some commercial "sourdough" breads have. What you will find once you get used to eating sourdough bread, is that breads leavened with commercial yeast will start to seem lacking in flavor and complexity.

One thing you will find is that the commercial "super-sour" breads almost always are dense with a tight crumb. My guess is that these are made by blending in a large percentage of mature starter or "old dough" followed by a very brief, warm rise and then right into a steamy deck oven (Acme uses 60 pounds of 12 hour old sponge in each 300 pound batch). The ones at the supermarket are undoubtedly made via some industrial process.

[weinoo]

A few things.  First of all, "sourdough" is a bit of as misnomer.  Sure, the bread is "sour" compared to bread leavened with commercial yeast, but not necessarily the lip-puckering sour that some commercial "sourdough" breads have.  What you will find once you get used to eating sourdough bread, is that breads leavened with commercial yeast will start to seem lacking in flavor and complexity.

One thing you will find is that the commercial "super-sour" breads almost always are dense with a tight crumb.  My guess is that these are made by blending in a large percentage of mature starter or "old dough" followed by a very brief, warm rise and then right into a steamy deck oven (Acme uses 60 pounds of 12 hour old sponge in each 300 pound batch).  The ones at the supermarket are undoubtedly made via some industrial process.

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Good points all, slkinsey. From the Boudin Website FAQs...

What makes Boudin Sourdough sour?

The secret is in our starter, or "Mother Dough", which includes micro-organisms that slowly and naturally ferment and raise the bread, producing a deliciously sour flavor. Our starter is proprietary, as it's the original "Mother Dough" from 1849, so we do not share or sell it. We don't make an "Extra Sour" version of our bread, either, as we prefer to use the original Sourdough French Bread recipe.

And yes, from my experience with Boudin, it has few of the holes that we all like to see.

[slkinsey]

That part of Boudin's FAQ is a little disingenuous. All sourdough cultures are comprised of "micro-organisms that slowly and naturally ferment and raise the bread" and are capable of "producing a deliciously sour flavor." Some cultures seem to produce more acid than others, it's true, but I still believe that getting a lot of sourness (if that is the goal) is primarily a matter of technique and ingredients.

[djyee100]

I was curious about how to make a sourdough bread more sour, both from the discussion on this thread and some PM exchange with MikeJ. So I emailed my friend Allen Cohn, my go-to guy for bread questions, and this was Allen's reply:

"This is a very complex question. I've had long email discussions with a biologist about it.

"The best short answer I could get from her was:

"Assuming your starter is in good health, first bulk ferment your dough at a warm temperature to encourage growth of the desired bacteria. Then cool ferment (fridge temp or a bit warmer; either in bulk or shaped) to encourage those bacteria to switch from reproduction to the consumption mode in which they produce the most acid."

As I described upthread to MikeJ (post #268), I once attained a more sour loaf by leaving the dough on the counter for an hour, then sticking it in the fridge for at least overnight (maybe close to 2 days) until I had a chance to bake it. The resultant loaves were significantly more sour than my usual loaves. So I stumbled on Allen's process through accident and neglect. Such is progress.

Edited February 21, 2009 by djyee100 (log)

[MikeJ]

I need to apologize for ever doubting the small inoculation method. I tried it again with a longer, warmer fermentation of the starter and an extra warm (32c or so) rise for the dough, and the results were excellent - the best flavour I've achieved so far. Consider me a convert.

[maui420]

hi, here is my culture at 4 days old. how can i tell it is ready to be placed into the refrigerator? it hasnt change much since yesterday. i did however have a small amount of hooch in the center on monday, but it seems to have disappeared, not sure what to make of that. also,

some say to wait till the whole culture is full of tiny bubbles, however in the directions it states to wait for 1-2 inches of foam and mentions nothing about the rest of the cultures appearance. also, should this culture be kept at 85degrees or at 70-72 room temperature? i am going

thanks for any help! i hope to join the bread bakers thread!

Edited February 25, 2009 by maui420 (log)

[melamed]

hi, here is my culture at 4 days old. how can i tell it is ready to be placed into the refrigerator? it hasnt change much since yesterday. i did however have a small amount of hooch in the center on monday, but it seems to have disappeared, not sure what to make of that. also,

some say to wait till the whole culture is full of tiny bubbles, however in the directions it states to wait for 1-2 inches of foam and mentions nothing about the rest of the cultures appearance. also, should this culture be kept at 85degrees or at 70-72 room temperature? i am going 

thanks for any help! i hope to join the bread bakers thread!

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I made sourdough starter once about 2 years ago and keep it in the fridge. My major mistake was not feeding it properly and after the first couple days it became contaminated (stinky). On my second try, I fed the dough as soon as I began seeing bubbles in it, throwing half out and replenishing. I didn't bother with checking temperatures. When it began to bubble nicely a few hours after feeding I moved it to the fridge. Also use your nose! does it spell like sourdough? that's the best indication that you are doing the right thing. I am not an expert but I hope this helps.

[andiesenji]

There can be a lot of variables - how warm is your kitchen? Things go more rapidly when temps are between 70 -80 degrees F.

I keep my home quite cool during winter (thermostat set at 65 F.) and now the winter temps are low so it takes longer than in the summer when it is much warmer here in so.Calif. desert.

I have had some take a week to really get going, others perked up in a couple of days but I refreshed and replenished them and separated some to store before I ever used them for bread.

I also was careful to develop and use only one culture at a time to avoid cross-contamination or culture mixing.

Did you get your starter from Sourdoughs International? If so, which did you get.

They usually include the essential information and it is also available on the site.

Click here and scroll down to Use an active culture.

You can also find a lot of information and answers to almost any question at Sourdough Home.

[andiesenji]

The sourdough culture I had kept going for a few years finally developed a fatal inclusion and had to be discarded a month or so ago.

I decided to order some "new" cultures from Ed Wood's sourdo.com and received them last week.

Australia (Tasmanian Devil, South Africa, Finland and Russia.

I picked the one with the most interesting name (Tasmanian Devil) for my first efforts and followed the instructions and mixed it with flour and water on 3/6. The instructions advised it could take at least 48 hours to show signs of activation. Not this culture!

After 24 hours (at 85 degrees) it had a 1 1/2 inch foamy layer so I added the required flour and water and divided it into two jars.

12 hours later it required another feeding and watering session and had to be divided and is now in three containers (with room to expand).

The following morning (another 12 hours) the stuff in the Cambro container was hitting the top so I took that portion and prepared dough. Unfortunately I forgot to take pictures until the dough was 2 hours into the first rise.

At the end of three hours I transferred the dough to a board, kneaded it down well to develop a finer crumb, shaped it into a loaf and another piece to store in the freezer to see if it will recover.

After an hour of proofing at room temp it looked like this:

And another 45 minutes brought it to the point where it could go into the oven:

I oiled the top and got excellent oven spring (not aiming for a thick chewy crust on this one) in this 10 x 5 in. loaf pan:

And here it is out of the pan:

The first slice. I used a combination of 60% A-P flour, 35% whole wheat flour and 5% flax meal.

It has a very pleasant, slightly sour flavor which blends well with the nutty flavor of the whole wheat and flax.

The next time I will proof it longer at room temp (65-70) instead of 85 degrees, to see how sour it will be.

This is an extremely ACTIVE culture.

It is growing in the fridge. Here it is shown in a 2 qt. Cambro container, I marked the level when it went into the fridge yesterday at 4:00 p.m.

Edited March 9, 2009 by andiesenji (log)

[fooey]

I have three starters going at once: white, wheat, and rye (all Nancy Silverton's, because they work really well for me).

Problem: It's becoming quite the task to keep up with feeding three at a time, but the only really effort is the stirring flour and water at feeding time.

Quantity: Never really more than 2-3 quarts of each.

Question: Will I hurt the starters by using an immersion blender (on low) to incorporate flour and water at feeding time?

Yes, yes, you can go ahead and laugh at my indolence.

[alanamoana]

I'm going to hazard a couple of guesses here:

depending on how long it takes to incorporate everything and how liquid your starters are, you might hurt your immersion blender more than the starters.

with the white, you might be at risk of destroying some of the gluten which may have developed, but since this is a starter, it might not make too much of a difference in your finished product (depending on how much you use in your makeup).

the wheat and rye won't have as much gluten to worry about, so i don't think that's a problem.

the friction/heat that the immersion blender might create (again, time would be a factor) might cause your starters' temperature to rise adversely.

again, these are all guesses.

edited to add: yes, i'm chuckling at your indolence... but maybe laziness is the actual mother of invention rather than necessity.

Edited August 15, 2009 by alanamoana (log)

[fooey]

Ha ha, indolence is me.

I do make the bread by hand these days, but it's really annoying when you're about to leave home for work and then suddenly realize:

"Oooooh, no! I've forgotten to feeds the blobs!"

[dougal]

Two things.

I don't worry too much about mixing my starter after refreshment. (Pure domestic baking - so I'm not too bothered about day-to-day consistency.) I do keep it at 100% refreshment - equal weights of flour and water, so it makes for a slightly gloopy (initially lumpy) batter (but 100% does greatly ease the mental arithmetic for thinking about hydration of different doughs).

Just like autolyse and stretch-and-fold, I let it do much of the hydration/work for itself.

Also to add to alanamoana's possible effects, incorporating more air/oxygen into the batter (with an immersion blender) might be expected to increase the rate of breeding of the yeast components of the starter, which might change the readiness time or balance (and thus ultimately taste) of your cultures.

[rickster]

If this is for home baking, maintaining 2-3 quarts per starter seems like a lot. Maybe you could cut down the amount to save some flour, effort and time?

[jackal10]

1. An immersion blender will not hurt your starters

2. Keep them in the fridge and refresh them only the day before you bake. Much less work.

[fooey]

I killed her.

Matildé, the white sourdough starter, is on her death bed.

Immersion blender = bad idea.

She looks miserable, like a milkshake, almost no bubbles to speak of, no umph, no oompa, no happiness.

It could be post-traumatic stress, depression, but I think she's done for.

Verdict: immersion blender bad.

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Ja, rickster, I have too much going at once.

[slkinsey]

fooey, there is no reason whatsoever to keep that much starter. All the starter is for is perpetuating the culture. Just keep a small amount of starter (say, 100 grams of each) and use that starter to inoculate larger amounts of poolish when you need to "make more starter" for a batch of sourdough.

It is highly unlikely that using an immersion blender did anything bad to your sourdough starter culture. How are you refreshing the starter? Sourdough starters should be fed by high dilution for the best healthy growth characteristics. This is the opposite of what most home bakers do. What it means is that, if you are keeping 100 grams of sourdough starter, when you feed the starter you should discard all of it except for around 10 grams, and then feed that with 50 grams each of flour and water.

Nancy Silverton, while being a talented commercial baker, is notorious among sourdough aficionados for perpetuating a lot of misinformation about sourdough microbiology, for recommending starter feeding practices that are highly impractical for the home baker and anyway not optimal for culture health, and for recommending that home bakers maintain a far larger volume of culture than is needed or practical.

Edited August 16, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[jackal10]

Amen Sam

Leave it be in a warm place. It will recover

[fooey]

fooey, there is no reason whatsoever to keep that much starter.

It's reasonable for me, as I make 10 to 20 loaves some weekends.

It is highly unlikely that using an immersion blender did anything bad to your sourdough starter culture.

You should see it and you'd rethink that. She was "very" not happy this morning. I reduced her to about 1 cup and am rebuilding. I will never use an immersion blender again.

How are you refreshing the starter?  Sourdough starters should be fed by high dilution for the best healthy growth characteristics.  This is the opposite of what most home bakers do. What it means is that, if you are keeping 100 grams of sourdough starter, when you feed the starter you should discard all of it except for around 10 grams, and then feed that with 50 grams each of flour and water.

If I didn't need to volume of starter I do, that would be practical. I need volumes and so I make it as such. The 10s:50f:50w method is interesting. Mine is more 50s:25f:25w. I'll create one as such and see how it comes out.

Nancy Silverton, while being a talented commercial baker, is notorious among sourdough aficionados for perpetuating a lot of misinformation about sourdough microbiology

I've exhausted what energy I have defending Nancy Silverton on this topic, so I'll be brief: Her feeding method is for initial starter creation. The only mistake she made in her text is in failing to say, "Now that your starter is active and strong, this is what you have to do to perpetuate it." Hordes of people, who can't/couldn't read between the lines, make/made what I think is an asinine assumption that one must feed the starter in volume in perpetuity, which is just ridiculous. Yes, she made that error in her text, but that's no reason to extend it to "perpetuating a lot of misinformation about sourdough microbiology".

[fooey]

Amen Sam

Leave it be in a warm place. It will recover

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Recover yes, but that's thing: the immersion blender damaged it badly. I didn't want to recover it. It was happy snappy when I was using a fork.

The answer to my original question is: An immersion blender will damage your starter.

[dougal]

...

Recover yes, but that's thing: the immersion blender damaged it badly. I didn't want to recover it. It was happy snappy when I was using a fork.

The answer to my original question is: An immersion blender will damage your starter.

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Really, I doubt that -- BUT -- I think I understand your perception of 'damage'.

I think you are working by volume.

This is not the best of ideas, if you are dealing with frothy starter.

Sure, the blender flattened the foam, so you think you've got less.

But actually, you've just got less trapped CO2.

Because a lot of bubbles got burst (and maybe some gluten got chopped).

Its no big deal, at least, not until you want to measure some out.

A better habit is to ALWAYS work by weight. (Its the only hope of accuracy with variably foamy starter.)

[skipper10]

(Host's Note: This discussion was split off from the Will Immersion Blender Hurt My Sourdough Starters? topic)

I have three starters going at once: white, wheat, and rye (all Nancy Silverton's, because they work really well for me).

Problem: It's becoming quite the task to keep up with feeding three at a time, but the only really effort is the stirring flour and water at feeding time.

Quantity: Never really more than 2-3 quarts of each.

Question: Will I hurt the starters by using an immersion blender (on low) to incorporate flour and water at feeding time?

Yes, yes, you can go ahead and laugh at my indolence.

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I made Nancy Silverton's sourdough starter following instructions published in Washington Post Food section, I believe it was in 1993, when Julia's "Cooking with Master Chefs" came out. I love the bread it produces, people who taste it for the first time inevitably ask me for the name of the bakery I bought it from, they say that this is the best bread they have eaten in the States.

I no longer keep the starter in the fridge, not enough space, and now that the kids are out of the house I don't bake bread as much or as often.

This is what I do: feed the starter as instructed three times, I no longer follow the time schedule, by now I know when it is ready for the next feeding or baking. It no longer takes three days in my kitchen either, it is much faster in the summer and slower in the winter as we tend to keep house temperature on "sweater warm." Starter tells me when it is ready to be used, not the clock.

After I bake the bread, I measure out my leftover starter into 18 oz portions and freeze them either in plastic containers or freezer bags. (Yes, I date them and use older ones first.) Before the next baking I defrost my frozen starter in the fridge and proceed with feedings. I never have leftover starter as I try to use as much as I can, save for the next batch and often share with foodie friends.

I am sooooooo envious that you are able to work all that dough by hand. It must be so rewarding. Good luck with your baking. skipper

Edited August 17, 2009 by Chris Hennes (log)