Philadelphia Tasters' Club

[cdh]

Interesting process of evaluation. Would have been fun to taste along.

So have you reached any conclusions you'd like to share, or do you want to increase the size of the tasting panel before saying anything.

[mrbigjas]

Dang.  Y'all outdid yourselves.

Next time tell me in advance, K?

Risotto of Nothing. I love you guys....

←

What Katie said. Hmph.

←

dudes the whole thing was instigated and whatnot right here on the board, although damned if i can find the original original post that v. was referring to in starting this thread.

anyway, some impressions of the evening:

i've tasted a lot of wine and drunk enough wine over the years that you'd think i'd be better at tasting. truth be told, i'm not that great at it. and adding the different sensations and... well, oiliness, that tasting oil straight up involves, it threw me off even more. even with the amplifier glass, i was struck more by the similarities between the oils than the differences. i was expecting more noticeable variations between the oils, but the second i took a sip, it just came back to whoa, ok, olive oil.

there were, of course, outliers, and a few were the oils from non-european places. the tunisian oil had the peppery burn that many do, but rather than showing up in the finish like it does in a tuscan olive oil, say, it came right out in front. the becchina olio verde (italian, but still noticeably different) smelled and tasted like a straight up bag of grass clippings. the yellingbo had some chemically scent to it that was hard to put my finger on.

the other area that surprised me was that there was actually a difference in mouthfeel to the oils--not that that's really possible, if you think about it, since they're all just oil. but the way the taste perceptions make your mouth react, i guess... it wasn't just that some were 'rounder' tasting, they FELT rounder in the mouth.

and there were several tasting techniques that we experimented with. v. had brought the granny smiths to clear the palate, as hathor suggested upthread, but at first we were all hesitant to try them, in case the green appley flavor would influence other oils. well, after a test, it turns out it did indeed do a great job of clearing things out without unduly screwing things up.

in addition, the vetri and the becchina had sediment in them--stirring that up made a real flavor difference. prior to the mixing, they were good but a little boring, even. but with the sediment mixed in, there was a striking difference--actually with both of them i got a match-head smell right when they were first poured after the mixing, but that dissipated quickly enough.

just like with wine, though, tasting things on their own and tasting them in a food context is a very different experience. after smelling and tasting 13 oils in a row (i could never be a wine judge), palate fatigue was setting in. and this is when we started eating, and things woke back up.

when you use a nice oil to finish a dish, i feel like much of the oiliness is lost in the food, and what you are left with are the aromatics coming off the dish--it acts like a spice or herb in this way.

so for instance, the lentil stew was a hot dish, with plenty of spice and fat. i first chose the carm for it, because i thought the kind of thicker, earthier scent would go. it was lost almost immediately--it wasn't aromatic enough to come off the dish. the aguibal manzanilla, which was a more angular, raspier oil that i really enjoy, did the job perfectly. a few drops on each spoonful and this almost piney scent would emanate from the bite, only to be swallowed up by the chorizo and bacon. fantastic, and fleeting.

or the ceviche--i thought the yellingbo would be nice at first, but it wasn't; it couldn't stand up to the acid that cooks the dish. the moulins mahjoub, though, had the stones to carry it off.

ok this has gone on too long. can't read if too long. the evening was tons of fun, i learned a lot about how a tasting like this might work in the future. and i think i'ma have to get one of these.

p.s. v. was wrong about the chickens. everyone knew in one bite of each, not three.

[mrbigjas]

So have you reached any conclusions you'd like to share

mix up the vetri oil. it makes all the difference.

[philadining]

So have you reached any conclusions you'd like to share

mix up the vetri oil. it makes all the difference.

←

Yep, true for any of the unfiltered ones it seems, BIG difference in flavor, which makes total sense...

premix on the left - postmix on the right - it's obvious even just looking at it...

And it's true, if you're tasting a bunch of oil you need some tart apples.

and i think i'ma have to get one of these.

I don't think i had any idea how unbelieveably delicious toast could be. Sure it was slathered with excellent olive oil, a littel pesto and a dusting of cheese, but I think it was mostly down to that tiny grill and the magic charcoal.

Edited February 3, 2007 by philadining (log)

[wkl]

can you guys elaborate on the taste of the birds? i am assuming all picked the blue foot because it tasted better. or was it just noticeably different from the eberly bird? was the eberly bird actually inferior?

[mrbigjas]

the blue foot tasted more... chickeny. almost as if it had been salted more, which you can see wasn't the case.

but more than the flavor, to me, was the texture. the eberly bird was good, but it had a rubberier texture that was a little offputting compared to the other. it exuded more juice, too. it was almost like it was cooked less or something--which, i mean, you see the cooking time of the two birds, that wasn't true either.

at the time, i wondered if there would be as much of a difference if the birds were roasted rather than cooked sous vide. seems like the bluefoot would have much more of a chance of drying out, because of that texture issue.

wouldn't change the flavor though. at the end we decided that we should do a similar taste test but throw in the whole foods, bell & evans, and a good ol yellow perdue chicken too. it would be hard to disguise the perdue, though.

[wkl]

thanks james.

maybe throw tyson, and empire into the mix. also, be interesting to compare a d'artagnan bird with an eberly.

[Vadouvan]

be interesting to compare a d'artagnan bird with an eberly.

Bill I am certain they are one and the same.

the blue foot tasted more... chickeny. almost as if it had been salted more, which you can see wasn't the case.

but more than the flavor, to me, was the texture. the eberly bird was good, but it had a rubberier texture that was a little offputting compared to the other. it exuded more juice, too. it was almost like it was cooked less or something--which, i mean, you see the cooking time of the two birds, that wasn't true either.

at the time, i wondered if there would be as much of a difference if the birds were roasted rather than cooked sous vide. seems like the bluefoot would have much more of a chance of drying out, because of that texture issue.

wouldn't change the flavor though. at the end we decided that we should do a similar taste test but throw in the whole foods, bell & evans, and a good ol yellow perdue chicken too. it would be hard to disguise the perdue, though.

To add to Biggie's comments :

Though CSV isnt the cooking method of choice that the average person will end up using, it was the best to quantify how the birds tasted.

Bluefoot definitely had much more complexity, even the crispy skin was much more savory.

CSV left them both juicy but Eberly exudes more juice, bluefoot was perfect but in unskilled hands, the possibility of drying it out greatly exists in roasting.

I would say it is almost imperative to roast the bluefoot ...

Convection oven

Reflective roasting pan with water under the rack like the ones at Ikea.

Straight up 400F till done without any silly temp adjustments.

BILL

Eberly wasnt *inferior*, bluefoot was just way better.

Remember Eberly is still better that Bell/Evans, Whole foods and certainly Purdue Imho.

I am still formulating my comments about the oil.

I would say the evening's revelation by far was the charcoal grilled bread...

We had seconds ...

[Vadouvan]

Katie....Regarding the "risotto of nothing"

The prose was just to highlight flavor delivery.

Risotto was made with super high quality stock (eberly and Bluefoot bones), only ingredients were parmesan cheese, salt, shallot.

Just Plain rice.

At the end just before serving, we folded in freeze dried "petit pois" and then drizzled olive oil.

Strangely, the freeze dried peas retained "encapsulated flavor" as in the risotto did not taste like peas but every now and then you would get an explosive pea flavor.

Worked very well for me with Manni PMF.

Mozzarella Ice Cream with Olio Verde was stunning.

[dagordon]

can you guys elaborate on the taste of the birds? i am assuming all picked the blue foot because it tasted better. or was it just noticeably different from the eberly bird? was the eberly bird actually inferior?

←

The difference was fairly obvious -- as others have said, the verdicts were unanimous, and came very quickly. (I was not expecting this.) The blue foot flesh and skin both were just more straightforwardly chickeny, with a fuller and rounder flavor. But I also noticed a pretty substantial difference in the aftertaste. The Eberly had notes that were almost unchickeny in the aftertaste, almost metallic, though it was the sort of thing that was revealed only by comparison to the blue foot. That is, I'm not sure that it would even be noticeable if one were eating an Eberly chicken breast by itself.

It should be stressed that if we had just been served the Eberly breast, I think everyone would have thoroughly enjoyed it. (If I recall correctly, everyone finished each of the samples, which were bigger than necessary for sheer comparison purposes).

I too am still collecting my thoughts about the oils, and the pairing of oils with food. The food itself, however, doesn't require much reflection. It was some of the best food that we've had in a long time. I was not expecting a meal of this quality. The ceviche and sorbet combination was stunning. I probably could have had thirds on the bread. The risotto broth was the most aromatic, intensely flavorful chicken broth ever; it's scary to think what would happen if V got the urge to make matzo balls one day.

The mozzarella ice cream w/ olive sugar was just completely over the top.

[mrbigjas]

Mozzarella Ice Cream with Olio Verde was stunning.

←

that thing was out of control. like capigiro's pistachio gelato does, it tasted more like mozzarella di bufala than the actual mozzarella does. what's up with that?

anyway, grassy mozz, grassy oil... yes indeedy.

[scase805]

Can't wait to hear everyone's thoughts on the oils - glad to hear that you had fun with some of our stuff!

V - by the way, can we order that mozzarella ice cream by the pint???

[dagordon]

First, big thanks to Scott and Di Bruno's for advice on the oils. And, of course, thanks to V for hosting, and cooking...

Like mrbigjas, I was struck more by the similarities among the oils than by differences. Each oil was pretty distinctive -- it's not at all if many of them tasted the same -- but the range of the differences was more narrow than I would have thought.

There's a problem related to this -- what I realized pretty early on in the tasting is that I didn't quite have the vocabulary to describe the flavors that I was experiencing, or the differences among oils. I feel like it would be extremely helpful to read a book on olive oil tasting, or read professional tasting notes, or something... So the following is going to be pretty crude. I'm going to just group the oils by strong features. This is a compilation of my notes and my girlfriend's:

Peppery:

DiBruno Frutatto (major pepper kick)

Vetri (major pepper once shaken, mild pepper finish before shaking)

Frantoia (light peppery finish according to my girlfriend, though I didn't really get it)

Armando Manni Per Me (light pepper finish)

Buttery/Full:

Carm (luxurious)

Yellingbo

Planeta (not really buttery, but mouth-coating and full)

Grassy:

Beccchina Olio Verde

Armando Manni Per Me

Armando Manni Per Me Figlio

Le Moulins Mahjoub (straw)

Vanilla:

Marques De Valdueza (also artichoke?)

Aguibal Arbequina

Other notes:

The Frantoia for me was one of the oils that made me wish I had a better tasting vocabulary... it had a unique mid-palate, unlike the others, though I couldn't pin it down.

The Aguibals had very peculiar aromas, chemical-y (g/f says "like art supplies"). And she claimed the Manzanilla tasted like it too, though she did like it. The Manzanilla was one of the outliers -- just a really distinctive oil.

Now, the food pairings.

Ceviche: I chose the Per Me, g/f chose the Valdueza. I don't know whether mine was a good choice, because I stupidly didn't taste the ceviche before adding oil. I didn't really taste it in the dish once added, but this doesn't mean that it wasn't serving a function. G/f did taste the dish before adding oil, and was happy with her choice, which she says cut through the acid of the dish a bit and added balance.

Bread: V chose the Olio Verde. That people were clamoring for seconds should indicate that this was a quality choice.

Burrata: V put the Valdueza on the salad; I put this on the mozz too, so as not to cause a conflict. G/f chose the Carm. My pour was pretty generous, so I really tasted the oil. We had different philosophies here: the Burrata could be pushed to the lighter or heavier side. The Valdueza made for a lighter dish, the Carm a richer one. We both liked ours.

Risotto: I chose the Vetri, g/f the Per Me. We both absolutely loved our choices, each providing some complexity to a simple, but amazingly good, dish.

Lentil Stew: I chose the Carm, g/f the Planeta. The flavors of the dish were pretty intense, so the oil didn't have much of a chance to stand out here. But it did round out the dish.

Mozz Ice Cream: we both had the Olio Verde. mrbigjas said it best, grassy mozz, grassy oil. A match made in heaven.

Edited February 6, 2007 by dagordon (log)

[Vadouvan]

To Echo and add to Mr Gordon's comments.....

An expanded vocabulary is indeed requisite to describe the oils.

Olio Verde was perfect for the charcoal toasted bread, it had a smoky finish to be.

Important to note that the Pesto was also made with it.

Per Me with Risotto

Manzanilla with the Lentil stew due to terroir.

Mozzarella and olio verde was indeed transcedental.

Here is the price breakdown from Dibruno brothers.

1.Dibruno Frutatto 19.99/750ml

2.Marques De Valdueza 24.99/500ml

3.Le Moulins Mahjoub 12.99/370ml

4.Novello / Marc Vetri 32.99/750ml

5.Carm 14.99/500ml

6.Yellingbo 24.99/500ml

7.Frantoia 17.99/500ml

8.Aguibal Manzanilla 16.99/500ml

9.Aguibal Arbequina 16.99/500ml

10.Becchina Olio Verde 39.99/500ml

11.Armando Manni Per Me 26.00/100ml

12.Armando Manni Per Me Figlio 26.00/100ml

13.Planeta.....................?

I was exposed to Planeta as the house Olive oil at a restaurant in london called Locanda Locatelli.

To those who dont know, Giorgio Locatelli is to London what Batali is to NY except Locatelli cooks better food.

http://www.locandalocatelli.com/

Anyway Planeta is the best oil of the lot for Italian style rustic breads, it's flavor combined with the burnt flour is amazing.

Olio verde has a similar effect.

The twin manni's are subtle finishing oils and should never contact hot pans under any circumstances.

All other oils are at Dibruno.

We intend to do another tasting of oils in the future with a broader spectrum of flavor.

Manni can be gotten at .. Manni.biz

The most expensive by far but it is also overpackaged and I strongly suspect that affects at least 20% of the price.

*DO NOT* buy the Manni Oil at whole foods, it's overpriced garbage

Next "WHERE IS THE BEEF"

[mrbigjas]

Peppery:

DiBruno Frutatto (major pepper kick)

this one was interesting -- the pepper didn't come in until half a minute or so after you swallowed.

Frantoia (light peppery finish according to my girlfriend, though I didn't really get it)

what's up with the pricing on this one? i used to buy it all the time a couple years ago, and it was like $15 or $16 for a liter bottle. now it's up to like $23 -- like, a 50% increase in not that long a time.

still, good stuff.

Buttery/Full:

Carm (luxurious)

this was the sleeper of the night for me. rich and earthy, not as aromatic and fruity as the others. i'd like it on some cod. or some chickpeas.

Aguibal Arbequina

this one is so sweet and floral, it's really one of the most distinctive oils.

The Aguibals had very peculiar aromas, chemical-y (g/f says "like art supplies"). And she claimed the Manzanilla tasted like it too, though she did like it.  The Manzanilla was one of the outliers -- just a really distinctive oil.

the manzanilla, to me, had a kind of angular, clay-ey taste to it. i just realized that maybe that might be the art supply flavor? or something? the aroma you get from a potter's wheel, or a glaze? you shoulda tried it with the lentils.

Bread: V chose the Olio Verde. That people were clamoring for seconds should indicate that this was a quality choice.

how much of that could we really taste, though? having been grilled, couldn't it have been any of them?

[Vadouvan]

how much of that could we really taste, though? having been grilled, couldn't it have been any of them?

Biggie the pesto was also made with it.

Plus it was drizzled on before and after grilling.....

[mrbigjas]

ah, gotcha. that makes sense, then.

edit: i just realized we crossposted--i didn't see what you'd posted there when i wrote that last one.

Edited February 6, 2007 by mrbigjas (log)

[MarketStEl]

Next "WHERE IS THE BEEF"

←

I definitely want to be on hand for this one.

Please to not be posting details on time/participation in posts that disappear....

--Sandy, practicing broken English

[philadining]

I'm not feeling especially confident of my vocabulary either, but I'll post the spontaneous reactions I had at the time, some of which seem pretty silly, like "oily," or cliché like "grassy," or obvious, like "olivey."

I'll agree with the other tasters that I expected that any collection of oils would have a much wider diversity of flavors, but while these each had distinctive characteristics, they weren't so far apart that switching one for another would necessarily ruin a dish.

Another observation that surprised me: the smell and taste often didn't correlate, in fact I felt the aromas DID have a pretty wide range. But I'm not sure how much that aroma plays into one's experience of the oil once it's in food, unless it's a pretty major component, splashed onto hot food at the last minute.

I don't think we were systematic enough to say authoritatively whether certain of these oils really shined on cold dishes as opposed to hot, although we ate a few of each.

Just for the heck of it, I'll do the math for you and crunch V's numbers into a per liter price.

aroma notes are from the amplifier snifters, flavor notes from tasting each alone, unaccompanied.

1.Dibruno Frutatto $26.65/liter

aroma: sharp, green, dusty

flavor: VERY grasy, bitter, late pepper

2.Marques De Valdueza $49.98/liter

fruity, smooth

flavor: big, round, smooth

3.Le Moulins Mahjoub $35.11/liter

aroma: melons

flavor: bitter, immediate peppery heat

4.Novello / Marc Vetri $43.99/liter

aroma: nothing

flavor: "oily", hot peppery

5.Carm 29.98/liter

aroma: nothing

flavor: buttery, luxurious, delayed pepper

6.Yellingbo $49.98/liter

aroma: magic markers

flavor: nutty, slight chemical overtone

7.Frantoia $35.98/liter

aroma: grass and autumn leaves

flavor: smooth, peppery, dry

8.Aguibal Manzanilla $33.98/liter

aroma: huge, peppery, olives

flavor: very olivey and ripe

9.Aguibal Arbequina $33.98/liter

aroma: big, but not as big as the Manzanilla

flavor: mannered, flowery

10.Becchina Olio Verde $79.98/liter

aroma: grassy, flat

flavor: Bitter, peppery, harsh

11.Armando Manni Per Me $260/liter!

aroma: not much

flavor: balanced, even, smooth

12.Armando Manni Per Me Figlio $260/liter

aroma: ethereal, slight camphor, medicine

flavor: lightly peppery, edgy

13.Planeta.....................?

no aroma note

flavor: THICK, big, mouth-coating.

I was getting a little dizzy trying to sort out which oils did what with which dishes, but the oils certainly did have a huge effect on the food, often mellowing and merging flavors in a dramatic way. A few of the oils that tasted odd, or even unpleasant on their own were quite nice on food (I'm thinking of the Mahjoub especially - it seemed quite harsh to me on its own, but really distinctive and complimentary on food.)

All of these oils were good in some ways, but I was pleasantly surprised by a few things. The Aguibal Oils, which are pretty easy to find, and not savagely expensive, stood up very well in the comparisons, and were in fact quite distinctive and interesting, at least to my palate. The Manni Oils were quite delicious, but not so dramatically more delicate or luxurious, so I can resist going through the hassle of obtaining them, and spending $260 per liter on them! They're quite nice, but not THAT nice... The Moulins Mahjoub is probably a little edgy for just dipping bread in, but would be a really good distinctive addition to a dish that could use a little bite. The Carm is pretty awesome for evening-out and rounding out flavors and adding a luxurious mouth feel. The Planeta is so thick you could probably use it as engine oil in a pinch, but it's very tasty, so I wouldn't recommend that!

The whole experiment was very interesting, and I look forward to doing some more exploring. I think a smaller number of oils might be good, and maybe some deliberately distinct styles too. But I wouldn't be reluctant to buy any of these oils for my home use, perhaps referring to my notes for some clues about which one to use when. And I might wait on the Manni until I win the lottery.

Big thanks to the folks at DiBruno's for their help with the oils, and to V for all the hard work getting it together in such an organized (and delicious) way!

Edited February 6, 2007 by philadining (log)

[scase805]

One interesting thing that I've noticed so far (and correct me if I'm wrong), but there hasn't been much mention of the types of olives used to make each respective oil. Other than the Aguibal oils (Arbequina, Manzanilla and Picual) which are 100% varietal and advertise that fact, I think it would be prudent to note what olives are present in each oil.

In my short experience with Di Bruno Bros. I've started to notice certain characteristics for particular olives. For example, the Aguibal Arbequina is the smoothest, butteriest of the three Aguibal oils. Other 100% Arbequina oils tend to have similar qualities. So it seems that in an olive oil like, say Marques de Valdueza (one of my favorites, btw), which combines Arbequina, Morisca, Hojiblanca and Picual, each individual olive would lend its own distinct flavors to the oil. MdV has that smooth, buttery flavor up-front (Arbequina?) and a pleasantly mild, slightly peppery finish (Picual?). Unforunately, my exposure to Morisca and Hojiblanca is not enough to comment on their distinct characteristics, or how they might lend themselves to the oil.

Maybe the next round should focus more heavily on varietal oils - kind of like a jumping off point - with some blends following?

[mrbigjas]

excellent point. i only wrote down the varietals of the ones that specified them -- many don't mention it.

[philadining]

double post...

Edited February 6, 2007 by philadining (log)

[Vadouvan]

Tasting #2.

Where is the beef.

Contenders are as follows.

1. Wegmans Dry Aged Strip

2. Whole Foods (and a whole lot of politics and Bullshit) Dry Aged Strip

3. Harry Ochs Dry Aged Strip or Porterhouse.

4. Peter Lugers Dry Aged Porterhouse

5. Lobels Dry Aged Porterhouse

6. Wolfe Neck Dry Aged Strip

7. D'artagnan Wagyu Bone-in Strip

8. George Wells Dry Aged Strip

9. Espositos Dry Aged Strip

There were other suggestions but they were all eliminated for issues such as "wet-aging" and places like D'angelos that "Dry-age" in thie walk in refrigerators ...for two reasons.

Other products in the refrigerator and no humidity control.

Steaks will be cooked old-school parisian style.

No broiling rubbish

French Black Steel Pans.

Halen-Mon Sea Salt

Pondicherry Black Peppercorns after tasting them naked.

Any other thoughts Gordon ?

Edited February 6, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[mrbigjas]

why not do porterhouses of each? to even things out i mean.

[Vadouvan]

why not do porterhouses of each? to even things out i mean.

Because the supermarkets dont dry age porterhouses.

Besides more than half of a porterhouse is a New York Strip......kabish ?

We'll eat the other part for dessert......