Enforcing Alcohol Law: NYC Fine Dining Restaurants

[robert40]

Recently I found what can best be described as a waiters rant website. I don't hold to much stock in such a site as the possibility is present of revengeful ex-employees striking back.

Still found it interesting though that many felt Chef Humm was lets say... Well better left unsaid. If true I could get the impression he may be uncompromising on certain issues.

[RobinsonCuisine]

Now, I dont' know how old Bryan looks and really wouldn't concern myself unless the drinker obviously looked under age (I'm not witch hunting), but for whatever reason the server at EMP chose to card him, he isn't of legal age and the server had no choice but to stand ground.

So, what you're saying, as someone who "worked for Danny Meyer and several other 2, 3 and 4 star restaurants" where was "emphasized over and over that we were NOT to serve minors even if they were with their parents" is that if a customer looked like he reasonably might be 21 years old, but perhaps might not be 21 years old, you "wouldn't concern yourself" and would serve that customer. I have always understood that the law, at least as it applies in bars and shops, says you're supposed to card any customer who looks like he might possibly not be 21. You're applying the opposite standard, and saying that you wouldn't card a customer who looks like he might possibly be 21. Plenty of 18-20 year olds -- especially girls, who can avail themselves of makeup -- look like they might be 21 years old. Most of them, in fact. This is exactly what we've been talking about. I couldn't think of a better example than the one you've just given. We're not talking about 13 year olds.

I was speaking as a customer in a restaurant, not as a server. As a customer, if I saw an obviously underage person being served, I would be concerned, but I'm trusting the restaurant to make the call on those who might or might not be.

I card/carded anyone and everyone whom I thought might be underage. It is one of the greatest compliments a 30 year old can get.

Many a 17-20 year old has been served alcohol in public. Many of them with their parents and the restaurant has chosen to turn a blind eye. But the enforcement here in NYC has changed because of the issues that have resulted from the summer. I think we are going to see more and more enforcement where it didn't exist before.

[markk]

But I for one haven't seen any documentation that this really happens, other than from two posters who said that they'd been served alcohol in upscale NYC restaurants when underage, and that's statistically insignificant.  Everybody else has just said that 'of course, we all know it happens all the time', but I don't accept that.

markk, I don't understand what better evidence you're going to get. If nothing will convince you that this is so beyond a peer-reviewed controlled study with a large sample size and a p value of 0.001, then you're not going to be convinced.

What I was saying was that, reading the same thread as you, I came away with about three people who could say they'd been served while underage, and a lot of hearsay. But if you insist that this happens all the time, I do believe you. When I dine out, I look at people's plates (sometimes shamefully pretending to get lost on the way to the bathroom so I can do so), but never their faces.

But I also can't discount the person who said he (or she) had worked for Danny Meyer and other starred restaurants and was told not to break the law, or the many posters who are restaurant professionals who said they find it so highly unlikely given the financial risks.

I do believe you though. I'm just surprised by it.

[RobinsonCuisine]

If we look at higher dining options in New York (lets say 3 star plus), you aren't going to get complaints from neighbors about underage drinking, complaints from neighbors about noise and fights and typically be off the radar of the police for the most part.  Does this make it ok for underage people to drink in these establishments?  Legally, no it doesn't.  Will the police come and bust EMP or Per Se, or Ramsay for someone whois 19 or 20 having a drink with their parents?  Highly unlikely.

If the police receive a complaint about a business which has a clean record, as I'm sure the restaurants you list do, first move is for the sargent to call the GM, relate the complaint (a 19 year old drinking with his parents fits this bill) and let them know that they are now on the radar. That is all it would take for the restaurant to crack down on carding.

[johnder]

I agree. I think the point here is if the police receive a complaint. The complaint in this case would almost definately have to come from another diner at the restaurant. The question that poses is if you observed an obvious minor drinking and were unfomfortable with it, would the person speak to the GM or call the police? My guess if the former -- if that is the case would that cause the restaurant itself to crack down or just address that issue at the moment and then carry on as usual.

[markk]

I agree.  I think the point here is if the police receive a complaint.

That's the point I had been taking issue with.

I had assumed that from time to time law enforcement officers or State Liquor Authority agents are in all licensed establishments at one time or another, for what may be the even the unlikliest of reasons (Fat Guy pointed that out, but I can't find the post). And that's why I thought a restaurant wouldn't take the risk.

Now, of course, Bryan can't do this (because I'm sure his picture is posted everywhere in New York now), but it would be interesting if any gulletteers in New York with 18-20 year old kids would take them to a fine restaurant since this thread has taken off, and see if they can get away with ordering wine now.

[Sneakeater]

If the police receive a complaint about a business which has a clean record, as I'm sure the restaurants you list do, first move is for the sargent to call the GM, relate the complaint (a 19 year old drinking with his parents fits this bill) and let them know that they are now on the radar.  That is all it would take for the restaurant to crack down on carding.

←

You realize that this actually supports "my" side, right?

I mean, I couldn't agree with this more.

[BryanZ]

Now, of course, Bryan can't do this (because I'm sure his picture is posted everywhere in New York now), but it would be interesting if any gulletteers in New York with 18-20 year old kids would take them to a fine restaurant since this thread has taken off, and see if they can get away with ordering wine now.

←

I should really just STFU. I hope it's a cute picture.

[Megan Blocker]

Now, of course, Bryan can't do this (because I'm sure his picture is posted everywhere in New York now), but it would be interesting if any gulletteers in New York with 18-20 year old kids would take them to a fine restaurant since this thread has taken off, and see if they can get away with ordering wine now.

←

Had dinner out with two under-21's (18 and 20) last week at a three-star; all were served.

Interestingly, the last time I was at EMP, in November, we ate next to an extremely young-looking couple, who were drinking cocktails, then wine. Wonder if that's what started this whole business? My head is spinning at the possibility!

ETA: That three-star dinner was on the 28th; so, not before the thread started. DAMN!

Edited January 7, 2007 by Megan Blocker (log)

[Sneakeater]

But the enforcement here in NYC has changed because of the issues that have resulted from the summer.  I think we are going to see more and more enforcement where it didn't exist before.

←

You see, this is where you lose me.

Because underage people from New Jersey out on a bender drink themselves comatose in megaclubs and then find themselves raped, murdered and dumped in a garbage can, the police or inspectors are going to start keeping close watch on people eating with their parents in quiet, not to say somnolent, restaurants?

Seems to me that the police and inspectors are going to start paying a lot of attention to megaclubs. Why would they divert their resources to an area that has nothing to do with the problems they're trying to solve?

(In any event, all this speculation -- on my part as much as yours -- is worthless. I think your post about the warning is kind of the point here. If anyone gets a warning like that, then of course things will change. But if not . . . .)

Edited January 7, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[jsmeeker]

when bryan turns 21, we should all gather at a nice cocktail lounge with him as the guest of honor and buy him drinks. Real drinks. With lots of hard liquor in 'em. Hell, this thread will still be active when that happens. It will make the planning easy.

we'll all have a good time. Kiss and makeup and all that good stuff.

Edited January 7, 2007 by jsmeeker (log)

[markk]

when bryan turns 21, we should all gather at a nice cocktail lounge with him as the guest of honor and buy him  drinks. Real drinks.  With lots of hard liquor in 'em.    Hell, this thread will still be active when that happens. It will make the planning easy.

we'll all have a good time. Kiss and makeup and all that good stuff.

←

I hope it's a cute picture.

Well, the makeup part is fine, but I'd have to see the picture before I can decide about the kissing part.

[KatieLoeb]

when bryan turns 21, we should all gather at a nice cocktail lounge with him as the guest of honor and buy him  drinks. Real drinks.  With lots of hard liquor in 'em.    Hell, this thread will still be active when that happens. It will make the planning easy.

we'll all have a good time. Kiss and makeup and all that good stuff.

←

I'd be happy to buy Bryan a drink on his 21st birthday. In fact, I'd be honored to mix it up myself. Hopefully when that day arrives I'll be working somewhere I can make sure that happens. All he has to do is show up.

I know Bryan to be an honorable sort (from his posts here, at least) so I presume whatever ID he's wielding that evening to have his correct birthdate on it.

That way we're all covered.

[Dryden]

Having grown up in NYC in the 80s and early 90s, back then, there was no way you would get carded anywhere, for almost anything. I used to go to bars in alphabet city and soho with my (slightly older) sister when I was 14 and 15 without any kind of problem - now, I was a tall kid, but had quite a babyface - the truth is, no one cared. And certainly never had a problem in a restaurant at all, with my parents or alone. Never heard about anyone else having a problem, either.

When I went to school in Boston, that was the first time the ID thing ever came up (I didn't have a fake ID - I never needed one). My folks took me somewhere, ordered wine, and they refused to serve me. This came back to one of those "You're kidding, right?" kind of discussions, and some kind of compromise was reached whereby my parents served me and the restaurant looked the other way.

If I was with someone who was underage in a nice establishment and they were carded, I'd certainly ask why (no way would I produce ID and give them any kind of facts to work off of), and if they denied to serve them, I'd be pretty pissed off and ask to see the manager. I'd very possibly leave, and definitely say a few words to the management on the way out.

This kind of thing really doesn't go on in New York City, and any one who seems to think it does or should really has no clue what they're talking about. Kids who want to get drunk can go buy beers at half the bodegas in the city - what the hell would they want to go out and spend a bunch of money on food for?

[Sneakeater]

You guys are nuts.

When Bryan turns 21, he should buy US drinks.

[Sneakeater]

[Raises hand] Me!

←

OK: u.e. and Pan.

[jsmeeker]

You guys are nuts.

When Bryan turns 21, he should buy US drinks.

←

Heh.... NOW I agree with you.

[Meredith380]

But the enforcement here in NYC has changed because of the issues that have resulted from the summer.  I think we are going to see more and more enforcement where it didn't exist before.

←

You see, this is where you lose me.

Because underage people from New Jersey out on a bender drink themselves comatose in megaclubs and then find themselves raped, murdered and dumped in a garbage can, the police or inspectors are going to start keeping close watch on people eating with their parents in quiet, not to say somnolent, restaurants?

Seems to me that the police and inspectors are going to start paying a lot of attention to megaclubs. Why would they divert their resources to an area that has nothing to do with the problems they're trying to solve?

(In any event, all this speculation -- on my part as much as yours -- is worthless. I think your post about the warning is kind of the point here. If anyone gets a warning like that, then of course things will change. But if not . . . .)

←

Ah let's blame it on Jersey, I see how this is! Is this the thread of sterotypes?

That said, do I think the server was completely wrong in how he handled the situation? Absolutely. You make that decision as a server the moment an alcoholic beverage is ordered as to whether you want to card someone or not. You don't back track.

However, I'd never blame any server who refuses to serve a minor, even if they did so at an inappropriate time. That's their livelyhood on the line. I would have reflected his gauche moment in my tip.

This "in a fine dining environment, they look the other way" attitude is out of line to me. They look the other way EVERYWHERE IN NYC. I spent my 16th birthday drinking pitchers of beer in Houlihans in midtown.

To me, the law is the law. If you can evade it, cool. If a server refuses service, too bad, but it's their right. It's not worth being outraged over. You can drink underage anywhere in any place, whether it's Manhattan, Florida, PA, or, godforbid, NJ. -- you reserve the right to try to drink but are certainly not entitled no matter what you're paying for your dining experience.

[Sneakeater]

Ah let's blame it on Jersey, I see how this is!

←

I thought that was the whole reason we had separate boards.

[Dryden]

They look the other way EVERYWHERE IN NYC.

I agree completely.

[BryanZ]

They look the other way EVERYWHERE IN NYC.

I agree completely.

←

I actually disagree here. This doesn't really pertain to the fine-dining aspect of this thread, but I'm living this life right now, in 2007, and I will say you do have to know where to go. While it's certainly harder to procure alcohol in NC, where I go to school, it's not like I can waltz into any quickmart or liquor store in the city and buy alcohol. Most everywhere I know will card, and it all comes down to how much they scrutinize IDs. Personally I don't have a fake ID, though I'm about the only of my friends who doesn't, probably because I'd rather spend my $20 on a glass of wine at dinner than on a handle of Smirnoff to get ripped on. I know of stores and bars where you can get stuff without being carded, but at least for me these locations aren't exactly widespread and must be sought out. But then again, maybe I'm not cool enough. When hanging out at NYU over the summer with friends in those dorms, I'm not one of the literally hundreds of underage kids who get into clubs using really, really cheesy fake IDs.

I think NYC may have become more strict with underage drinking in recent years, and perhaps for good reason. Thankfully, from my perspective, this trend hasn't yet reached fine-dining restaurants, and I don't think it will. As long as large groups of kids keep getting into trouble at clubs and liquor stores, as others have said, there are more important things to worry about than the occasional glass at a fine-dining restaurant.

[weinoo]

They look the other way EVERYWHERE IN NYC.

I agree completely.

←

Wrong. Try to even bring a 20-year old into dba, for instance. Not happening. Mercury Lounge - not happening. Living Room - same thing. Just to name 3.

[markk]

They look the other way EVERYWHERE IN NYC.

I agree completely.

←

I actually disagree here. This doesn't really pertain to the fine-dining aspect of this thread, but I'm living this life right now, in 2007, and I will say you do have to know where to go. While it's certainly harder to procure alcohol in NC, where I go to school, it's not like I can waltz into any quickmart or liquor store in the city and buy alcohol. Most everywhere I know will card, and it all comes down to how much they scrutinize IDs. Personally I don't have a fake ID, though I'm about the only of my friends who doesn't, probably because I'd rather spend my $20 on a glass of wine at dinner than on a handle of Smirnoff to get ripped on. I know of stores and bars where you can get stuff without being carded, but at least for me these locations aren't exactly widespread and must be sought out. But then again, maybe I'm not cool enough. When hanging out at NYU over the summer with friends in those dorms, I'm not one of the literally hundreds of underage kids who get into clubs using really, really cheesy fake IDs.

I think NYC may have become more strict with underage drinking in recent years, and perhaps for good reason. Thankfully, from my perspective, this trend hasn't yet reached fine-dining restaurants, and I don't think it will. As long as large groups of kids keep getting into trouble at clubs and liquor stores, as others have said, there are more important things to worry about than the occasional glass at a fine-dining restaurant.

←

You know, folks... for an underage kid who drinks so much, he makes a brilliant point and an even more brilliant conclusion to the debate.

[Sneakeater]

Le Bernadin is next!!!!!!!

*********************************************

NEW YORK POST

COPS SHUT DOWN TWO NIGHTCLUBS

By Angela Montefise and Mellissa Jane Kronfeld

January 6, 2007 -- The hammer came down on Crobar and the lights went out at Sol last night as police shuttered the two West Side nightclubs for numerous violations.

Crobar, located at 530 W. 28th St., and Sol, a block away at 609 W. 29th St., were closed at 10 p.m.

"This sucks," said DJ Dave Singh, 25, who was set to greet the crowd at Crobar.

"I basically had at least 50 or 60 people coming here. . . I'm definitely disappointed."

At Crobar, police cited nine instances of violence last year, including two women who were both shot in the legs July 23, several arrests for drugs - mostly ecstasy and cocaine - and three State Liquor Authority violations for serving minors.

Sol was cited for eight drug arrests, two SLA violations and "numerous assaults," including two people stabbed in June, police said.

Even as they raided Sol, cops said they found two men in the DJ booth rolling a marijuana joint with coke out in the open.

Representatives of both clubs have to appear in court Wednesday if they hope to reopen.

Edited January 8, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Nathan]

Since it now appears that it only takes 9 assaults (including only one shooting instance), a few drug arrests, and three SLA serving to minors violations in a year for an establishment to be temporarily shuttered,

I retract every argument I've made before and apologize. It is clear that Per Se, EMP, JG and Red Lobster are all in great danger and disrepute from BryanZ's presence.

This hairtrigger standard makes it inconceivable that any fine dining proprietor would not card anyone who looks like they may be under 40.