Enforcing Alcohol Law: NYC Fine Dining Restaurants

[docsconz]

Sam, where does NY fit in with those states?

[JohnL]

not posting, just quoting:

"but this has NEVER happened to me, and I eat out a ton. For one, I'm with my mommy, I'm not getting wasted. Secondly, back when I was like 17 or something I felt the need to aplogize to the wine captain at Cru for not ordering wine at a restaurant known for it because I was underage. He flat out said that the unofficial, official policy for good restaurants was one of don't ask, don't tell. Needless to say I was thrown off my game, as I may have known persons who may have been underage who may have enjoyed many a great glass of wine while dining at EMP....."

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The point some of us are making i think is:

obviously, the problem of minors being served in the presence of their parents in fine restaurants with any stars or no stars is not perceived as a social problem.

What some of us are trying to posit is that underage drinking is rapidly becoming a major perceived problem. It wasn't too long ago that MADD didn't exist and TV stations rarely did any stories on binge drinking.

In fact, not long ago bars were not concerned all that much with liability for their patrons (of or under age) actions after they left the establishment.

DA's were not looking at parties held in private homes--until some tragic incidents happened.

So the point is--fine dining establishments are potential targets--one simply can not ignore the history. They may not be now right this moment but if they want to take a calculated gamble as a business decision then fine.

Finally (I hope) we can either debate the laws or we can accept them in which case underage people who drink alcohol and the people who facilitate that behavior are potentially liable for their actions. Wanna let junior have a glass of wine? Fine but don't get upset if someone (the restaurant) calls you on it. We all (well many of us) sometimes drive faster than the speed limit--it should be no suprise or cause for whining if we get caught and fined for it. Blame the law? Blame the cop? No--blame yourself!!!

[slkinsey]

Sam, where does NY fit in with those states?

According to my reading of the chart on the Alcohol Policy Information System web site, NY State does not prohibit the consumption of alcohol by those under 21 years of age. Of course, it does prohibit the purchase of alcohol by and the sale to those under 21 years of age, as well as the "possession with the intent to drink" bu those under 21. But it actually seems as though it might be the case that a parent could purchase wine at a restaurant and serve it to a child with no liability to the restaurant.

What some of us are trying to posit is that underage drinking is rapidly becoming a major perceived problem. It wasn't too long ago that MADD didn't exist and TV stations rarely did any stories on binge drinking.

I think "perceived" is a big part of this statement. It's not clear to me at all that underage drinking is meaningfully worse now than it was 25 years ago. In fact, if a comparison of the atmosphere at my alma mater today compared to when I was in school is any indication, it's significantly better. The difference is that it's covered a lot more by the mass media (which is more "mass" today than ever).

[rich]

So if I'm reading the graphic correctly, New York has no law prohibiting minors from consuming alcohol - just purchasing it. Therefore, if Bryan wasn't buying the wine, but his mother was, then it was legal for him to drink.

Is that correct?

Edited January 4, 2007 by rich (log)

[Pebs]

To throw another perspective into this mix, you might be surprised how lucrative a crackdown on these restaurants can be. I'm the finance director for a small city with a huge tourism base, and therefore we have many restaurants. Our police department frequently checks for the sale of both cigarettes and alchohol to minors. Even in our better restaurants. When caught, a restaurant can either lose their liquor license for 30 days, thus losing most of their business to their competitors, or they can pay a few thousand dollars to get it back. We've helped finance a few squad cars this way. After all, if your a cop, how hard is it to take your wife to dinner for the purpose of paying attention?

Pebs

[Nathan]

"It wasn't too long ago that MADD didn't exist and TV stations rarely did any stories on binge drinking."

MADD's been around since I've been around.

In fact, I think drunk driving was more of an issue in the 80's.

"In fact, not long ago bars were not concerned all that much with liability for their patrons (of or under age) actions after they left the establishment."

I remember from torts class that such lawsuits have been around for 70 or 80 years. indeed, many states immunized their bars and restaurants from such suits a long time ago. some have not.

I don't dispute that the atmosphere in NY could change in the future. of course it did. I'm only concerned with the now.

"So if I'm reading the graphic correctly, New York has no law prohibiting minors from consuming alcohol - just purchasing it. Therefore, if Bryan wasn't buying the wine, but his mother was, then it was legal for him to drink.

Is that correct?"

I ethically can't comment on this.

[slkinsey]

MADD's been around since I've been around.

MADD was founded in 1980. You're <26?

[JohnL]

"It wasn't too long ago that MADD didn't exist and TV stations rarely did any stories on binge drinking."

MADD's been around since I've been around.

In fact, I think drunk driving was more of an issue in the 80's.

"In fact, not long ago bars were not concerned all that much with liability for their patrons (of or under age) actions after they left the establishment."

I remember from torts class that such lawsuits have been around for 70 or 80 years.  indeed, many states immunized their bars and restaurants from such suits a long time ago. some have not.

I don't dispute that the atmosphere in NY could change in the future.  of course it did.  I'm only concerned with the now.

"So if I'm reading the graphic correctly, New York has no law prohibiting minors from consuming alcohol - just purchasing it. Therefore, if Bryan wasn't buying the wine, but his mother was, then it was legal for him to drink.

Is that correct?"

I ethically can't comment on this.

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The law reads--"possession by anyone under the age of twenty one with intent to consume."

Here is a link to the state Liquor Board info on this topic. It covers pretty much everything we are discussing.

also-according to the SLA underage drinking is increasing in incidence and seriousness.

NY SLA Drinking and Children

[Nathan]

I'm ethically obligated not to give a direct opinion on what it doesn't or does cover that someone might rely on.

[Nathan]

I was five when MADD was founded.

[docsconz]

[e state Liquor Board info on this topic. It covers pretty much everything we are discussing.

also-according to the SLA underage drinking is increasing in incidence and seriousness.

NY SLA Drinking and Children

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I am not saying that these problems aren't serious, but I find this very difficult to believe. Alcohol was readily available in my youth when the legal drinking age was 18 and most of my peers availed themselves of it - frequently and copiously. Of course, since the legal age was 18 we were not engaging in "underage drinking," unless we happened to be under 18. It was much easier to do that then as well. Consequences were much greater as well as seat belt laws were relatively few and far between compared to today. It is also my impression that fatal accidents were more frequent then.

[markk]

NY SLA Drinking and Children

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This links to a fascinating pdf document.

Here are some excerpts from it. You might find them fascinating to read all the way through:

--------------------------

(Introductory remarks by Edward F. Kelly, Chairman NY State Liquor Authority)

Dear Parents:

The New York State Liquor Authority (SLA) works in conjunction with state and local police in

the enforcement of the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law. As the law relates to unlicensed keg and

teen parties, the police are the primary enforcement agency. Despite the ongoing efforts by law

enforcement, underage drinking (including excessive drinking and binge drinking) continues to plague our communities and neighborhoods. As the legal purchase age changed from 18 to 19 and

presently to 21, the category of underage persons now includes individuals considered adults by

many other legal standards....

Unlike licensed establishments, where inspections, legal standards and levels of supervision

are required, the organizers of underage drinking parties are generally unconcerned, improperly prepared, and careless in the safety or well being of their attendees. (The bold italics are mine.)

-----------------------------

NYS Penal Law

Section 260.20 Unlawfully dealing with a child in the first degree

A person is guilty of unlawfully dealing with a child in the first degree when:

He gives or sells or causes to be given or sold any alcoholic beverage, as defined by

section three of the alcoholic beverage control law, to a person less than twenty-one

years old: except that this subdivision does not apply to the parent or guardian of such a

person or to a person who gives or causes to be given any such alcoholic beverage to a

person under the age of twenty-one years, who is a student in a curriculum licensed or

registered by the state education department, where the tasting or imbibing of alcoholic

beverages is required in courses that are given only for instructional purposes during

classes conducted pursuant to such curriculum.

Unlawfully dealing with a child in the first degree is a class A misdemeanor.

Note: The exception for the parent or guardian does not extend to premises

licensed by the State Liquor Authority. (The italics are theirs, and I bolded them.)

-------------------------------

I think they're making it perfectly clear that it is not a restaurant's discretionary right to serve alcohol to an uneraged person, but rather that the restaurant's possession of a liquor license obligates them, especially, to uphold the letter of the law.

I don't know what kind of class an underaged person would take that requires them to drink alcohol, but the law is still incredibly clear that this exception does not hold true for them if they're in restaurants or premises licensed by the State Liquor Authority. Similarly, while it does seem to say that a parent can give alcohol to an underage person, it specifically says that they cannot do it in a bar or restaurant (i.e. "licensed premises").

I have one furhter thought to add, but it belongs in a separate post, and I'll put it there.

Edited January 5, 2007 by markk (log)

[markk]

Since this discussion is taking a natural (and highly interesting) broadening, I'd like to add a personal thought on the idea of 'parental discretion'. And I promise, it relates to food (or Chinese food at any rate).

I know one set of parents who allow their 14 year old son to smoke marijuana at home (although they themselves don't), and another set (who do) who sat down and smoked a joint with their 15 year old daughter so that "she wouldn't learn about it on the streets".

(See, I told you it had to do with Chinese food.)

So I'm not thoroughly convinced that parents always know what's best for their children, and it's probably a good thing that there are laws governing certain consciousness-altering substances.

I'm not saying that I know what the legal age for drinking should be, because I don't. (And I grant you that whatever age you choose, you're probably unfairly excluding from the pleasure some underage people who could imbibe responsibly.)

[godito]

I'm not saying that I know what the legal age for drinking should be, because I don't. (And I grant you that whatever age you choose, you're probably unfairly excluding from the pleasure some underage people who could imbibe responsibly.)

I think that's the point. The way I see it:

1. I don't like the law. Then again, I'm biassed, as I grew up in latin america, where drinking age is 18... and I don't remember ever getting carded. Of course I didn't do much buying before I turned 18, but there was a few times before that.

2. I had my first drink (beer) when I was about 3 or 4. My grandpa (who was German) gave me a zip of his. Did I get drunk? No, I didn't. Was it iresponsible of him to let me taste what he was drinking? I don't think so. Almost 30 years later I don't see anything wrong with what he did. In fact, I hope to share similar moments with my kids-grandkids one day.

3. What Markk said is right "people who could imbibe responsibly". A kid at 16 having a quarter of a glass of wine with a meal is not wrong in my book. That 16 year old kid driving drunk after a party is.

4. Now, can having some wine with your meal at a fancy restaurant be considered "drinking responsibly?" It depends on how much wine are you going to consume. Also, are you on any kind of medication? Or... well, you get the point. I have seen people hammered at high end restaurants before.

So, how old do you have to be to drink responibly? I think education (home and school) have a lot to do with that. I had my first drink very early, got drunk for the first time when I was quite drunk (about 14), but I learned to drink responsibly, and by the time I was 21 (living in the states) I was cautious on how much I drank.

[markk]

If I recall correctly the base of the discussion was high end restaurants do not acknowledge the drinking age in New York

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I didn't see anybody say that.

I think that is exactly what Bryan said, if not in so many words. He said that in his years of dining experience in New York's finer eateries, he's never before been refused service

On a closer re-reading of the thread...

Bryan's underaged now, and he's been drinking alcohol for years?

Hmmm....

[molto e]

I wonder what would have happened if Bryan would have said that he was 21...would they have asked for ID...would Bryan have showed his fake ID (if he has one, as those of us may or may not have done back in the day ). When I was underage, if I was served at a restaurant, bar or liquor store than it was a victory, but if not then the establishment was following the law. I was served countless times at countless restaurants, fine dining or beer and wings. Either a place enforced that law or they did not. I recently dined at Houstons with a friend's son ( age 19 or 20) and he was asked for ID and he gave him his fake one. To watch the panic in his eyes as his fake ID was taken to the back and thoughts of not being able to get into the bars back in college was classic . The ID was returned and a beer was served.

[markk]

I wonder what would have happened if Bryan would have said that he was 21...would they have asked for ID...would Bryan have showed his fake ID (if he has one, as those of us may or may not have done back in the day ). When I was underage, if I was served at a restaurant, bar or liquor store than it was a victory, but if not then the establishment was following the law. I was served countless times at countless restaurants, fine dining or beer and wings. Either a place enforced that law or they did not. I recently dined at Houstons with a friend's son ( age 19 or 20) and he was asked for ID and he gave him his fake one. To watch the panic in his eyes as his fake ID was taken to the back and thoughts of not being able to get into the bars back in college was classic  . The ID was returned and a beer was served.

←

When I was 19 I went on vacation with my parents, and took a friend's ID. One night I was having a drink at the bar before dinner, when my dad came in and joined me. The bartender asked me, "Another one, Dave?", except that's of course not my name. My dad simply didn't blink an eye, or care. Just a touching remembrance.

[JudyB]

As for European drinking ages:

United Kingdom: 5 in bars/restaurants (with parent), 18 in shops

A slight correction is needed here. If I understand the government website correctly this was more or less correct (in England and Wales) until the licensing laws were changed a couple of years ago. Historically Scotland has a separate legal system and I don't know exactly what the rules are there.

The law has now been tightened up, the full text is on the government website here, but the relevant sections are as follows:

Under the old regime, a child as young as 5 could be given alcohol to drink in a beer garden - this is no longer legal. The sale or supply of alcohol anywhere on relevant premises to anyone aged under 18 years is prohibited and is a prosecutable offence; as is the consumption of alcohol by an individual under 18 anywhere on relevant premises.  However, an exception is provided for an accompanied individual aged 16 or 17 where the alcohol is beer, wine or cider to be consumed at a table meal.

In addition to this there are also restrictions on when and whether a child under 16 is allowed in a pub at all. For anyone really interested read the full text on the website, but I won't attempt to summarize it here.

[JohnL]

I wonder what would have happened if Bryan would have said that he was 21...would they have asked for ID...would Bryan have showed his fake ID (if he has one, as those of us may or may not have done back in the day ). When I was underage, if I was served at a restaurant, bar or liquor store than it was a victory, but if not then the establishment was following the law. I was served countless times at countless restaurants, fine dining or beer and wings. Either a place enforced that law or they did not. I recently dined at Houstons with a friend's son ( age 19 or 20) and he was asked for ID and he gave him his fake one. To watch the panic in his eyes as his fake ID was taken to the back and thoughts of not being able to get into the bars back in college was classic  . The ID was returned and a beer was served.

←

Read the part in the link to the SLA literature.

Using a "fake" ID adds additional criminal penalties. Using a fake ID ups the ante considerably

with four possible criminal charges two of which are felonies!

There are also possible criminal charges that can be brought against parents who provide alcohol in the home.

Again, there is the issue of how and how often these laws are enforced. There has to be motivation for law enforcement to act--we probably do not have enough people to enforce the laws rigorously on an ongoing basis. that's why restaurants, bars and retail establishments are counted upon to do their part and why penalties are especially stringent for them. Although I believe it is not easy to pull a liquor license there is often quite a bit of legal wrangling involved. A good example isd the recent unfortunate incident in Queens where undercover cops were working a club that obviously should never have been in business in the first place.

Edited January 5, 2007 by JohnL (log)

[JohnL]

I'm not saying that I know what the legal age for drinking should be, because I don't. (And I grant you that whatever age you choose, you're probably unfairly excluding from the pleasure some underage people who could imbibe responsibly.)

I think that's the point. The way I see it:

1. I don't like the law. Then again, I'm biassed, as I grew up in latin america, where drinking age is 18... and I don't remember ever getting carded. Of course I didn't do much buying before I turned 18, but there was a few times before that.

2. I had my first drink (beer) when I was about 3 or 4. My grandpa (who was German) gave me a zip of his. Did I get drunk? No, I didn't. Was it iresponsible of him to let me taste what he was drinking? I don't think so. Almost 30 years later I don't see anything wrong with what he did. In fact, I hope to share similar moments with my kids-grandkids one day.

3. What Markk said is right "people who could imbibe responsibly". A kid at 16 having a quarter of a glass of wine with a meal is not wrong in my book. That 16 year old kid driving drunk after a party is.

4. Now, can having some wine with your meal at a fancy restaurant be considered "drinking responsibly?" It depends on how much wine are you going to consume. Also, are you on any kind of medication? Or... well, you get the point. I have seen people hammered at high end restaurants before.

So, how old do you have to be to drink responibly? I think education (home and school) have a lot to do with that. I had my first drink very early, got drunk for the first time when I was quite drunk (about 14), but I learned to drink responsibly, and by the time I was 21 (living in the states) I was cautious on how much I drank.

←

I think there is some over reaction. It is often not the actual laws but rather how and when they are enforced and the leeway the legal system provides for individual cases.

However you touch upon what I believe to be a great myth.

That is, countries where young children are exposed to drinking in the home and alcohol is a normal part of family meals, have thus, avoided problems.

After poking around the internet and looking at some EU documents as well as applying some common sense it is clear this is not the case at all.

First--alcoholism, drunk driving, underage drinking and related problems in European nations are very serious indeed--the EU certainly believes so.

Second--most countries and the EU are in the process of tightening their laws which in many cases are more stringent than ours. in fact wine consumption in france is down dramiticallyu as a result of much stricter drunk driving laws. this points up possible reasons for leniency toward alcohol over the years (most of these countries are wine and liquor producing nations whose economies have relied heavily upon the sale domestically of wine etc.--there may be a dark side to the tradition of alcohol consumption with meals).

There is good debate as to the approaches to deal with alcohol related problems there should be little to debate over their actual existence in most other countries.

[slkinsey]

I have to assume that the (needed) crackdowns on drunk driving are due to the fact that sprawl and car culture are becoming a much larger part of European culture. With increased car driving comes increasing problems with drunk driving.

As for "avoiding problems" like alcoholism and binge drinking, it's not clear to me that there is all that much one can do to avoid these problems among those who are inclined in that direction. It may be unclear to you that "countries where young children are exposed to drinking in the home and alcohol is a normal part of family meals, have thus, avoided problems" -- but it's also not clear to me that such an arrangement creates or contributes to these problems either. Given a choice between early education and exposure to responsible consumption of alcohol, or treating it like some magic elixir that you only get to have when you're 21, I think the former makes much more sense.

[scubadoo97]

There was a recent case in the news where twin brother and sister were celebrating their 21 birthday and had several drinks in an establishment. It was the evening before their birthday so they were technically not 21. They were killed or harmed, I can't remember, in an auto accident that evening and the establishment that served them drinks was lambasted and sued for ignoring the law. The parents were outraged that they were served alcohol. I tend to think these same parents would think differently if the tragedy had not occurred. I can't blame the restaurant for following the letter of the law. They have too much at stake to do otherwise.

[Nathan]

as has been reiterated over and over again:

we are discussing fine dining establishments in Manhattan.

[markk]

It would really be interesting if an eGullet administrator could contact one or two top restaurants in NYC and ask them to comment with the promise of anonymity. (I mean seriously, if the news media can do it, I'm sure eG could.)

[Sneakeater]

Never happen. They wouldn't admit to anything like that for publication even with the promise of anonymity. They'd be foolish to do so.