Christmas Dinner. Prime Rib.

[Sneakeater]

Craig and Sneakeater, are you telling me that you've put a California or Oregon pinot on the table at the same time as a jammy zinfandel, for a group of non aficionados, and gotten more favorable reactions to the pinot than to the zin? Maybe the local palate here is different, but I just did this like a month ago and there was no contest. The wines were Nuthouse and Renwood. The meal was turkey but the preferences were well established before anybody ate anything. I was the only person in the room who preferred the pinot. I haven't found that people have any problem with high-alcohol wines, either. The closer to Port the better. I drink a lot of Oregon pinot noir -- more than I drink of any other wine -- but have pretty much stopped bringing it to people's houses because I find the zins, syrahs and things of that ilk are better received.

←

No, I'm telling you that I've put West Coast pinots and zins on the table at different times, with different groups of non-aficionados, and have gotten consistently good responses to the pinots and generally less good responses to the zins. I think the zins were just too big, strange, and (yes) alcoholic for my non-aficionado friends.

[Sneakeater]

and end with a long, full finish.

←

This may show you how unsophisticated some of my friends are, but I've found, from their comments, that some of them even find a long, full finish disturbing.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

I'll finally note that I'm talking about West Coast pinot noir. I woudn't expect these people to get Burgundies. But these West Coast wines are pretty upfront and fruity -- in a more modest than big Zin way.

[rich]

and end with a long, full finish.

←

This may show you how unsophisticated some of my friends are, but I've found, from their comments, that some of them even find a long, full finish disturbing.

←

Interesting. Any thoughts as to why a long finish is disturbing, especially since that's one of a wine's most pleasing characteristics?

With regard to the pinot-zin reaction, is the zin reaction more from a total lack of understanding of what the wine is? I have friends who think all zin is pink and when I tell them they're drinking a zin, look at me as if I had two or more heads.

[Sneakeater]

They're not THAT unsophisticated.

As for the long, full finish, let me tell you a story. I once took a young woman to a restaurant with a decent wine program. She ordered a glass of Merlot. What they brought her was a glass of Chateau Gloria. She found it disturbing. She didn't like that the taste changed, in flavor as well as intensity, as the wine moved over her tongue. She didn't like that the aftertaste was more intense than the initial taste, and that it lingered for a fairly long time. She thought that all made the wine taste strange.

I tried to convince her that in fact all those things made this wine much better than your typical "glass of Merlot." She wasn't having any of that.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Craig Camp]

Craig and Sneakeater, are you telling me that you've put a California or Oregon pinot on the table at the same time as a jammy zinfandel, for a group of non aficionados, and gotten more favorable reactions to the pinot than to the zin? Maybe the local palate here is different, but I just did this like a month ago and there was no contest. The wines were Nuthouse and Renwood. The meal was turkey but the preferences were well established before anybody ate anything. I was the only person in the room who preferred the pinot. I haven't found that people have any problem with high-alcohol wines, either. The closer to Port the better. I drink a lot of Oregon pinot noir -- more than I drink of any other wine -- but have pretty much stopped bringing it to people's houses because I find the zins, syrahs and things of that ilk are better received.

←

Just to elaborate on the point - with the weight and girth of most American pinot noir these days, you'd be hard pressed to call them delicate in any sense. Most are rich, dark ripe wines in excess of 14% alcohol and more than a few are out and out jammy (ever taste a Loring?). So you you want a wine with pinot on the label and Zin-like wine in the bottle you'll have no trouble finding one.

As far as Zin and turkey, I can think of few less appealing matches. If I found my guests preferring Zin with my turkey instead of pinot noir, I would stop serving the Zin not the pinot noir. I assure you your dinner companions will be very happy drinking the pinot and you won't be forced to drink Zin with turkey. The same goes when you are bringing the wine to someone else's house. Be kind to your own palate and bring the pinot.

Not that there is anything wrong with Zin, which I like, but not with turkey.

[rich]

Not that there is anything wrong with Zin, which I like, but not with turkey.

←

It just shows how palates differ Craig. I can think of no better wine to serve with turkey than a zin. I don't think a pinot stands up to the dark meat at all, though I do think it works well with the breast.

I choose zin because I think it matches both very well.

I haven't tasted many full, jammy pinots though. I tend to lean toward the more delicate side. Aside from the Loring, what would you recommend of the former?

Just to note - I'm serving roast goose with a port sauce for New Year's Eve and plan on pouring 1978 York Creek Ridge Zinfandel. The last time I had it was about 12 years ago and it was very good, but needed more time. I have two bottles remaining and have confidence they will be perfect Sunday evening.

Edited December 28, 2006 by rich (log)

[wkl]

"It just shows how palates differ Craig. I can think of no better wine to serve with turkey than a zin."

Better than reisling?

[Craig Camp]

It just shows how palates differ Craig. I can think of no better wine to serve with turkey than a zin. I don't think a pinot stands up to the dark meat at all, though I do think it works well with the breast.

Why? How does it work and what do you drink with a big New York Strip at Morton's if you think Zin works best with turkey?

I haven't tasted many full, jammy pinots though. I tend to lean toward the more delicate side. Aside from the Loring, what would you recommend of the former?

None.

[Craig Camp]

"It just shows how palates differ Craig. I can think of no better wine to serve with turkey than a zin."

Better than reisling? 

←

Now you're talkin' !

[rich]

It just shows how palates differ Craig. I can think of no better wine to serve with turkey than a zin. I don't think a pinot stands up to the dark meat at all, though I do think it works well with the breast.

Why? How does it work and what do you drink with a big New York Strip at Morton's if you think Zin works best with turkey?

←

One of the great things about zins is the vastly different styles made. I'll take a blend with Turkey and a full-blown, knock your socks off one with the strip.

Not a fan of riesling with turkey. Prefer my rieslings with more spicy foods.

I also subscribe to the theory that all wine would be red if it could. About 90% of my wine consumption is red. Began drinking red at my Italian grandparents' table at age 4-5. Have never seen a reason to stop.

[wkl]

"Not a fan of riesling with turkey. Prefer my rieslings with more spicy foods."

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Or however that saying goes.......But reisling and turkey is about as classic a food and wine match as there is.

I always thought the zin and turkey thing was a way to pair a truly American varietal (supposedly) with a truly American holiday; Thanksgiving. Not so much because the pairing really worked that well.

Red Zin with the roast white meat of turkey, hmmmm, but like I said different strokes,etc........

[Sneakeater]

For Thanksgiving this year, for a crowd of DEFINITE non-wine drinkers, along with a big-ish California pinot noir, I brought one of those dry California gewurztraminers that Eric Asimov has raved about. I thought the gewurztraminer went great with the turkey. But, more to the point, boy did those guys love it. I think it might even have turned my brother into a wine drinker.

[Brad Ballinger]

I haven't tasted many full, jammy pinots though. I tend to lean toward the more delicate side. Aside from the Loring, what would you recommend of the former?

←

Sine Qua Non

[Sneakeater]

I haven't tasted many full, jammy pinots though. I tend to lean toward the more delicate side. Aside from the Loring, what would you recommend of the former?

←

Sine Qua Non

←

Hugest possible agreement.

[Sneakeater]

I would say that the single wine that I've ever had that was best received by a non-wine geek dining companion was a late-'90s Au Bon Climat Pinot Noir-Mondeuse blend (they don't make it anymore*) that I would call either "way fruity" or "jammy". It was inexpensive, too.

__________________________________________________

* They still blend small amounts of mondeuse into their cheaper pinot noirs -- but this blend was more like 50/50.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[rich]

I haven't tasted many full, jammy pinots though. I tend to lean toward the more delicate side. Aside from the Loring, what would you recommend of the former?

←

Sine Qua Non

←

I agree, that's why I asked the question. I didn't bring up that subject matter, another poster did.

And SE, I do think a dry gewurz does go with turkey, but I've never found the same thing with riesling.

[Sneakeater]

I'm really of the Riesling Goes With Practically Anything school, so never listen to me about riesling.

[rich]

I'm really of the Riesling Goes With Practically Anything school, so never listen to me about riesling.

←

It certainly could, but a lot depends on the RS level.

[Brad Ballinger]

I haven't tasted many full, jammy pinots though. I tend to lean toward the more delicate side. Aside from the Loring, what would you recommend of the former?

←

Sine Qua Non

←

I agree, that's why I asked the question. I didn't bring up that subject matter, another poster did.

←

In case there is any confusion, Sine Qua Non is a producer, and was not typed by me to mean anything else related to the defintion of the phrase (such as delicacy is a sine qua non for good Pinot Noir wines).

[wkl]

"It certainly could, but a lot depends on the RS level. "

any halbtrocken or trocken works wonderfully with turkey. the rs in these wines is defined by law, i believe.

[rich]

I haven't tasted many full, jammy pinots though. I tend to lean toward the more delicate side. Aside from the Loring, what would you recommend of the former?

←

Sine Qua Non

←

I agree, that's why I asked the question. I didn't bring up that subject matter, another poster did.

←

In case there is any confusion, Sine Qua Non is a producer, and was not typed by me to mean anything else related to the defintion of the phrase (such as delicacy is a sine qua non for good Pinot Noir wines).

←

Sorry Brad, I took it literally. Being a former seminarian, the Latin comes to mind first.

I've had their Syrah and Grenache, but never their Pinot - never knew they made a Pinot.

Please describe it. Any particular vintage?

[Brad Ballinger]

Sorry Brad, I took it literally. Being a former seminarian, the Latin comes to mind first.

I've had their Syrah and Grenache, but never their Pinot - never knew they made a Pinot.

Please describe it. Any particular vintage?

←

Well, like their other wines, it goes by a different name depending on the vintage. The fruit comes from the Shea Vineyard in Oregon's Willamette Valley. Great source of fruit that goes through an abomination at the winery. I swear the 1999 Ox stained my wine glass.

[Sneakeater]

I just had one of their pinot noirs for the first time (didn't catch the year/specific name/etc.), and it was just like their rhone-grape wines. I mean I didn't think pinot noir could be like that. Not what I look for in a pinot, but . . . well, did you ever hear the story about the first time Igor Stravinsky heard Leonard Bernstein's vicerally exciting but completely over-the-top recording of The Rite of Spring? Stravinsky (not a native English speaker, of course, and someone who never used English slang) just said, "Wow".

[Craig Camp]

Not that there is anything wrong with Zin, which I like, but not with turkey.

←

It just shows how palates differ Craig. I can think of no better wine to serve with turkey than a zin. I don't think a pinot stands up to the dark meat at all, though I do think it works well with the breast.

I choose zin because I think it matches both very well.

I think the issue is is that you like the flavor of zinfandel so you accept those flavors with a wide range of foods just so you can drink zinfandel, which you love. I do the same thing with pinot noir and drink it with almost everything because there is nothing in wine I love so much as the flavors and structure of pinot noir (except, of course, for nebbiolo).

But you have to take into account I am an total geek. I live pinot noir as a daily experience as someone who is dedicated his life to making that varietal.