Biscuits!

[kpurvis]

I'm surprised how many people are dismissing lard. In the biscuit hierachy, lard would be my first choice, followed by Crisco, with butter a distant third. Lard is no worse for you than butter -- and when you divide it out by the number of biscuits or the number of slices of pie, you're really not getting that much per serving. And it gives a tenderness that butter doesn't deliver.

Beyond that, I'd agree with all the people who have included a low-protein Southern flour in their formulas. White Lily is terrific, although here in North Carolina, we can also use Martha White or Red Band. And the handling is key. "Kneading" is a misnomer. As an earlier poster noted, patting is really what you're doing. Watch a good biscuit maker and they pat the dough gently, sort of like putting power on a baby's bottom.

You noted that the shapes were square from touching in the pan. That's an important point -- if the biscuits are placed close together, their texture will be softer. If you put them in the pan with spaces between them, they'll be crispier. My aunts in Georgia, all farm girls, were crispy biscuit people. That texture made their cold biscuits perfect for soaking up cane syrup for a snack.

[Malawry]

My household is vegetarian, which many people here on eGullet know and which may be partly why nobody urged me to use lard. I'd be willing to eat a lard biscuit, but I won't be making one at home any time soon. Kpurvis, why do you think Crisco trumps butter?

I am familiar with Hardee's. Their biscuits are okay, but as chain restaurants go I think Biscuitville biscuits are closer to what I want. The best biscuit I've had is at Danny's in Greensboro, NC. If you get them right when they come out of the oven they are every morsel the biscuit I described in my initial post here.

Last night, I used up the leftover biscuits from breakfast in some shortcakes. Mixed some farm market blackberries with sugar, lemon juice, and a splash of Frangelico. Whipped lightly sweetened cream. Smothered the biscuits with berries and cream, and put 10x sugar on top. Yesh.

[Varmint]

The problem with Hardees' biscuits, just like most of the southern chains', is with the crumb. These biscuits are very cake-like, without any noticeable layering. They're quite yummy, and I eat my fair share of them, but I truly want a biscuit that has discernable layers. That's one of the reasons I do fold or "knead" my dough. You may sacrifice a bit for tenderness, but you make up for that with the final texture.

[kpurvis]

My household is vegetarian, which many people here on eGullet know and which may be partly why nobody urged me to use lard. I'd be willing to eat a lard biscuit, but I won't be making one at home any time soon. Kpurvis, why do you think Crisco trumps butter?

My apologies, Malawry. No, I didn't know you were vegetarian. Joining in here sometimes feels a little like walking into a block party when you just moved into the neighborhood -- you don't know where the social speed bumps are. I'll try to remember.

On butter vs. Crisco, I think things made with butter have a crisper texture, like when you make chocolate chip cookies with butter instead of margarine. They have a great flavor but a harder texture. I'm not a scientist, so I can't explain why that is, but you can taste the difference. Shirley Corriher would probably say it has something to do with water content.

I've known a lot of great Southern cooks who made biscuits from Crisco, but not a single one who used butter. Maybe that was because in the old days before air conditioning, butter was more expensive and wouldn't keep as long, but I suspect it was also a matter of texture.

Can any food scientists out there explain the difference?

[Ron Johnson]

Ron, how does your mother shape her biscuits?

Rolls out the dough, punch out biscuits with small juice glass. Resist temptation to twist the glass to cut out the biscuit as this seals the edge of the dough and retards rising.

This recipe makes a very crisp on the outside, flaky on the inside biscuit. The biscuits should be small so that they hold a dab of sorghum and are eaten in one bite.

[Varmint]

I've known a lot of great Southern cooks who made biscuits from Crisco, but not a single one who used butter.

I believe Bill Neal of Crooks Corner, Fearrington, and La Residence fame (and author of "Bill Neal's Southern Cooking", one of the best resources) made his biscuits with butter.

[Ron Johnson]

I may be incorrect in sensing confusion on this topic, but Crisco is not lard.

[Toby]

Bill Neal's biscuits are very good (his cookbooks are great). In Southern Cooking, he calls for 2 tablespoons vegetable shortening, 1 tablespoon lard and 2 tablespoons butter to 2 cups flour. In Biscuits, Spoonbread, and Sweet Potato Pie, he gives the option of the above combination or using one of the fats by itself. He says, "Lard renders the best layers, long and distinct (vegetarians are out of luck). Vegetable shortening produces a tender and fluffy biscuit, lacking somewhat the taste and texture that comes from lard. Butter gives the best flavor and weakest structure. I often mix the fats, using some of each for its own properties. A biscuit without some little bit of lard will never taste truly Southern to me, but I must admit that shortening will be easiest for cooks new to biscuits to handle. Veteran biscuit makers will have their own ideas and ignore anything I suggest, anyway."

And he recommends White Lily as the best flour for biscuits.

I sometimes get pork fat ground up for me in Chinatown butchers and render it for lard, but I think it's fresh fat back. I've read that leaf lard (fat from around the kidneys?) makes the best lard. Does anyone know where to get leaf lard in New York?

[Varmint]

Thanks, Toby. I remember talking to Bill before his death, and I recall that he generally made his biscuits with butter. But then, I certainly have been wrong before.

[stagis]

I do 'em 2 ways, and, also, attribute tough ones to too much handling. Both use self-rising flour, with the first one being lard-based. However - when I have leftover heavy cream, I use that...simplest thing in the world: Verify it before ruining some recipe and cursing me, but I think it was 2 parts self-rising flour to 1 part heavy cream. That's it. Awesome biscuits.

[Malawry]

Kpurvis, no need to apologize. I'm interested in the idea of a lard biscuit (and I'm not really vegetarian any longer, although my household still is meat-free).

I've never baked the same item side-by-side with the same recipe but different fats. Has anybody done this? Not just biscuits, with any type of baked good.

[Deades]

Actually I made biscuits for dinner tonight. Because I have been trying to perfect biscuits for some time I made two batches one made with butter the other with crisco. I used White Lily flour for both. And made sure that I handled them the same (i.e. same amount of kneading and mixing, ,etc.) The crisco biscuits were more tender and rose higher but the butter biscuits tasted better. However neither one was perfect. Perhaps I will try lard next -- but where do I find it? Or could anyone tell me how to render it?

[Elizabeth Ann]

I came across this article in the Chicago Sun Times - easier biscuits - they can't possibly taste very good.

[Anna N]

Since making a decent buttermilk biscuit is one of my cooking goals, I just conducted a most unscientific test to see what I could learn. I made two batches of buttermilk biscuits - one using only all-purpose flour and only butter as the fat and the second using a combination of all-purpose and cake flour and a combination of butter and shortening. All other ingredients were the same except for a titch more buttermilk in the second batch. Oven temperatures and baking times differed: the first batch called for 375F for 15 minutes; the second 425F for 12 minutes. The second batch were infinitely superior. They rose higher, were flakier and tasted much better. For what it is worth. Anna N

[Xanthippe]

Since making a decent buttermilk biscuit is one of my cooking goals, I just conducted a most unscientific test to see what I could learn.  I made two batches of buttermilk biscuits - one using only all-purpose flour and only butter as the fat and the second using a combination of all-purpose and cake flour and a combination of butter and shortening.  All other ingredients were the same except for a titch more buttermilk in the second batch.  Oven temperatures and baking times differed:  the first batch called for 375F for 15 minutes; the second 425F for 12 minutes. The second batch were infinitely superior.  They rose higher, were flakier and tasted much better. For what it is worth.  Anna N

Thanks for the report on your "unscientific test," Anna; biscuits of all kinds, especially buttermilk and cream biscuits, have to be some of my favorite breadstuffs.

Question: Was the method for preparing the biscuits the same for the two recipes? I'm guessing you rolled/patted out the dough, then cut equal-sized biscuits. Oh, and did you bake the biscuits with the sides touching?? Lastly, did you brush the tops with melted butter or something similar? (Okay, okay -- that's three questions! )

[Anna N]

Thanks for the report on your "unscientific test," Anna; biscuits of all kinds, especially buttermilk and cream biscuits, have to be some of my favorite breadstuffs. 

Question:  Was the method for preparing the biscuits the same for the two recipes?  I'm guessing you rolled/patted out the dough, then cut equal-sized biscuits.  Oh, and did you bake the biscuits with the sides touching??  Lastly, did you brush the tops with melted butter or something similar?  (Okay, okay -- that's three questions! )

Yes, the method was identical - very briefly kneaded, rolled to 1/2 inch thickness and cut with 2" round cookie cutter.

No sides touching - I like them "crispy" outside.

No I did not brush with melted butter though one recipe did call for it. The test was unscientific enough without brushing one and not the other.

I have written up the recipe I used and fully intend to tweak it further over the next little while. Since there are usually only the two of us, I need to halve most recipes as I did with these two. I also want something that is almost as quick to make as the refrigerated ones so I am thinking of trying the food processor to cut in the fat - I know - I might be sorry - but, eh, it keeps me out of the pool halls. And I thought I could mix up the dry ingredients into small packs so they are ready to go. Instant Bisquick! I also find it a pain to have to buy a whole litre of buttermilk so might try buttermilk powder, too. Will let you know how things turn out.

Anna N

[hjshorter]

The second batch were infinitely superior.  They rose higher, were flakier and tasted much better. For what it is worth.

Your second recipe sounds very much like mine. I use the food processor to cut in the fat, then dump into a bowl to mix in the buttermilk. Just be careful not to overprocess.

I don't bake mine with the sides touching - I like the sides crispy too. And I don't brush with butter.

[fifi]

*bump*

The Southern Breakfast thread in the Southeast forum caused me to go searching for this topic.

I am determined to master the art of the biscuit. I have finally ventured into a wee bit of baking. I had a bit of success with cobbler dough using Mayhaw Man's recipe. I have even gotten good at making the cream biscuits from Cooks Illustrated. Now I want to attempt REAL biscuits.

Unfortunately, the model and the memory is from my childhood and my great aunt Minnie. Her biscuits were so amazing that my mother and grandmother chose not to compete, so we really didn't have biscuits all that often between her visits. I am pretty sure she used lard, at least when I was very young. She may have swithched to Crisco in later years. She had two styles. One was the crispy outside type that were baked apart on a cookie sheet. The other was in a cast iron skillet. She would melt some fat in the skillet, turn the biscuits in the fat to fully coat them, and bake them nestled side by side. She insisted that the cutter had to be really sharp. I remember this because she always complained, "Ola, that cutter ain't worth a damn." Then she just started packing her own cutter.

What I am interested in is... Some of you that contributed to this thread last year, what have you learned since your forays into biscuit making?

[enrevanche]

Some additional biscuit commentary and recipes in this thread from late June.

For the record, I have tried dozens of biscuit recipes before finally settling on the Basic Rolled Biscuits (buttermilk variant) recipe from Joy of Cooking. These biscuits, to me, taste the closest to the Platonic Ideal of Biscuitness--the from-scratch biscuits that Grandma Addie used to make without a recipe.

[helenjp]

Having a great read of this...my grandmother's scone method checks with that described by Varmint and by Suvir Saran...she would "knead" or turn the dough 3 times, and felt that while that was essential, any more kneading would make them tough. She also used the "bake close together, at the top of a hot oven" method for everyday scones, and brushed them with milk before baking. In New Zealand, our flour is pretty soft anyway, so most people used an all-purpose flour or mixed it half and half with cake flour. She used butter, which is normal for scones.

My mother used a melt-and-mix method which did produce the softer, cakier texture she preferred, but I found tended to get very stodgy in the mouth.

The one thing they agreed on was that the milk should be soured in some way, even by adding a spoonful of vinegar if necessary.

[fifi]

heh... It seems that a lot of us have a butt load of baggage about biscuits. We seem to have that "ideal" burned into our brain and I am sure that it is surrounded by all sorts of fond memories. I will bet that somewhere out there, someone is trying to recreate those crumbly hockey pucks that their grandmother so lovingly made.

Now I am off to hunt down some White Lily flour.

[Andrew Fenton]

For the record, I have tried dozens of biscuit recipes before finally settling on the Basic Rolled Biscuits (buttermilk variant) recipe from Joy of Cooking.

In the past, this has been the basis for my go-to biscuit recipe; I tweak it by rolling and folding the dough a few times, which seems to make them flakier.

Recently, though, I've been using the biscuit recipe in the current Cooks Illustrated (called "Mile-High Biscuits" or something like that). It's a completely different biscuit style (softer, taller and cakier), which is a nice change. I think it could be tweaked, using some of this thread's suggestions, especially using part cake flour. Will give that a try...

[browniebaker]

Since making a decent buttermilk biscuit is one of my cooking goals, I just conducted a most unscientific test to see what I could learn.  I made two batches of buttermilk biscuits - one using only all-purpose flour and only butter as the fat and the second using a combination of all-purpose and cake flour and a combination of butter and shortening.  All other ingredients were the same except for a titch more buttermilk in the second batch.  Oven temperatures and baking times differed:  the first batch called for 375F for 15 minutes; the second 425F for 12 minutes. The second batch were infinitely superior.  They rose higher, were flakier and tasted much better. For what it is worth.  Anna N

I'll up the ante: I bake my buscuits at 475 degrees F. Very fluffy and light.

[fifi]

I'll up the ante: I bake my buscuits at 475 degrees F.  Very fluffy and light.

Hmmm... I seem to remember that Aunt Minnie used a very hot oven. I have no idea what the actual temperature was. Maybe it has something to do with a "popover effect".

[enrevanche]

Now I am off to hunt down some White Lily flour.

Fifi, I would guess that you won't have trouble finding White Lily in Texas, but in case you do:

Both White Lily and Martha White (two very good biscuit baking flours) can be ordered straight from the manufacturers.

White Lily

Martha White

I've been buying Martha White flour and cornmeal by mail-order ever since I moved to NYC.