Dessert-centric restaurants

[AlexForbes]

When Sam Mason, ex-pastry chef at WD-50, opens his new dessert-centric place in New York's Soho, that will be the city's third restaurant with a focus on desserts (the others are Room 4 Dessert and Chikalicious).

The concept is new in the U.S., as far as I know, although Espai Sucre (sugar room), in Barcelona, has been serving dessert tasting menus paired with wines for some years now.

Is it pleasurable to go out to dinner and have desserts only? Or is the human palate more prepared to take in a convential tasting menu, with savoury dishes followed by sweets, rather than a tasting menu containing only desserts (even if they're not really sweet)? Must we taste something savoury before having desserts?

At the last Madrid Fusion, Ferran said that at El Bulli "the boundary separating savoury and sweet is blurred. There’s a rise in the importance of savoury ice creams and cold food in general".

Are today's avant-garde chefs trying to dissolve the boundary separating savoury and sweet, especially at these dessert-centric restaurants, and if so, are they suceeding?

[Sneakeater]

The simple answer, for me, is that I don't view going to those places as "going out to dinner." It's simply a different part of an evening -- or part of a different evening.

I think you could just as well ask about a bar or cocktail lounge, "is it pleasurable to go out to dinner and have drinks only?".

[AlexForbes]

Yeah, but I hear Sam's going to have savoury dishes at his place. And at Espai Sucre, in Barcelona, they offer one tasting menu that has 2 savoury dishes (half portions) followed by 3 desserts. That, to me, says that the chef clearly wants you to go there for dinner, and not

just stop in on your way home to grab something sweet....

[chiantiglace]

just so you know, Sam isn't opening a dessert themed restaurant. Some people gave me this preminission and when I went to go talk to him about it he immediately corrected me.

He enjoys savory too and has been wanting to do both for a long time. He is opening a tapas themed restaurant utilizing his talents in already pastry field. But he will also be doing a tapas menu as well.

Who knows what else he has up his sleeve, because he seems to be very vague on the subject to everyone. I hope we can all see his creation(s) soon.

[docsconz]

Yeah, but I hear Sam's going to have savoury dishes at his place. And at Espai Sucre, in Barcelona, they offer one tasting menu that has 2 savoury dishes (half portions) followed by 3 desserts. That, to me, says that the chef clearly wants you to go there for dinner, and not

just stop in on your way home to grab something sweet....

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I am under the impression that Sam's restaurant will be much more than a dessert restaurant. In fact a number of hypermodern restaurants are really blurring the distinctions between savory and dessert courses. WD-50 has been doing that and Alinea is another as its "Tour" weaves its way in and out between savory and sweet. Indeed, I think this blurring is one of the hallmarks of hypermodernism as traditionally savory ingredients are used in desserts and vice versa.

[danlepard]

Went to a dessertcentric restaurant in Helsinki at the weekend, http://www.postres.fi

excellent, so much good food there. Though at postres the starts and mains did seem stronger, a crab ravioli with a foam (of some sort , you see I went drinking with the Finns and you where that leads) and a braised ox cheek dish. Desserts of tart tatin (a little frilly) and a a choc assiette (a bit of everything, not a good idea). I wonder whether pastry chefs bring a new eye to starters and mains, and that is the magic?

Dan

[bleachboy]

I'll be staying in SoHo for about a week in mid-November and was planning on checking out Room 4 Dessert. I have a Per Se reservation at 10:00 pm and figured I would go by there early to have a snack and a cocktail, since dinner's so late. Do you eG'ers consider it worth checking out? Do they still serve breakfast? It's only about 4 blocks from my hotel (at Mercer and Prince) so I figured I could maybe take a nice morning walk and have some brioche and coffee, too.

[Sethro]

I think that there is definetely a growing market for dessert-centric restaurants, but dessert-only restaurants still only appeal to a very small subset of diners. That's only natural, given the percent of sales on average desserts generate for a restaurant (tasting menus not considered).

Sam Mason's, Pichet Ong's and Jahangar Metha's new digs will all feature savory foods (albeit incorporating ingredients and techniques usually indigenous to the pastry department). Sam's and Pichet's are much larger than either Chickalicious or R4D, and I don't think plated dessert sales alone would accomodate that difference.

Even for me, it takes some odd planning to schedule in a trip to Chickalicious or R4D, because I know I'll feel like crap if I have only dessert for dinner. So I have to plan dinner and dessert seperately, which is not ideal because it usually results in a major jarring of my sensabilities. I believe a halmark of a great pastry chef is the ability to create a flow from savory to sweet dishes, adding to the experience as a whole as supposed to creating a seperate experience. Of course when your eating dinner here and dessert there, that's an imposability.

Even though I find the food at R4D fascinating, I've only been in once (hopefully I can make it twice soon). I can see myself frequenting Mason's far more often though, because it should be able to accomodate my hunger as well as my curiosity.

[Sethro]

I'll be staying in SoHo for about a week in mid-November and was planning on checking out Room 4 Dessert.  I have a Per Se reservation at 10:00 pm and figured I would go by there early to have a snack and a cocktail, since dinner's so late. Do you eG'ers consider it worth checking out?  Do they still serve breakfast?  It's only about 4 blocks from my hotel (at Mercer and Prince) so I figured I could maybe take a nice morning walk and have some brioche and coffee, too.

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Unfortunately no more breakfast. It is very much worth checking out though.

[AlexForbes]

In fact a number of hypermodern restaurants are really blurring the distinctions between savory and dessert courses. WD-50 has been doing that and Alinea is another as its "Tour" weaves its way in and out between savory and sweet. Indeed, I think this blurring is one of the hallmarks of hypermodernism as traditionally savory ingredients are used in desserts and vice versa.

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Exactly, Docsconz, that's what I've noticed, too - hence that Ferran quote I included in my first post. However, when you say Sam's place will be much more than a dessert place, don't you think that, indirectly, you're saying that a dessert-centric restaurant is less of a restaurant because it doesn't have a comprehensive list of savoury dishes?

I think we are talking about 2 different kinds of restaurants: those, like El Bulli or Alinea, where the boundaries between savoury and sweet are purposely being blurred and dissolved, and those restaurants like Room 4 Dessert and Espai Sucre where the same holds true, but ALSO, there is a clear spotlight on the pastry department, with savoury dishes playing second fiddle.

I'm trying to figure out where Sam's place would fit into all this...

[Sneakeater]

Oddly, I would think that dessert-only restaurants would do better than dessert-centric restaurants. Dessert-only restuarants are easy to understand. There've been places you just go to for dessert -- the million Italian pastry shops in New York, for example -- since time immemorial. Places where you have as many dessert courses as main courses, though, and where they're interspersed througout the meal, may be harder to understand.

Just to explain my last post, the existing "new dessert" places in New York -- Chikalicious and Room 4 Dessert -- are very much in the dessert-only mode (although I've heard that Will Goldfarb at Room 4 Dessert intends to start experimenting with some savories). And one of them, Chickalicous, doesn't even aspire to culinary modernity. Room 4 Dessert very much does, but the commentary about it has always centered on how you don't have to understand or appreciate the experimental nature of the cooking there to enjoy the food. In other words, R4D has succeeded, IMO, because it can be appreciated as a high-end dessert place, and not as one of NYC's few proponents of avant-garde cuisine.

But even as for dessert-centric places, how different are they, in concept, from Payard on New York's Upper East Side? That's a place run by a famous pastry chef. It has a good bistro menu, which people in fact order from -- but everybody really goes there for the desserts. I guess the avant-gardists would say that these "new" dessert-centric places differ from that model in integrating the dessert courses into meal more than is traditional, and in giving them a bigger role. While I questioned above whether people would have trouble accepting that, maybe the real answer is that this part of the avant-garde program may be the one that will meet the least public resistance. Who's going to complain about having more dessert in a meal?

Finally -- and without, I hope, seeming antagonistic -- I thought that Alex's comment about "stop[ping] in on your way home to grab something sweet" sort of misapprehends the way people use, and have always used, these "dessert only" places. These have always been places you stop in for a snack, or after you've eaten at a place where you wouldn't order dessert (say after trying the burgers at Royale, as everyone in New York will now be doing), or at the end of a night that you don't want to end yet. It's not just an urban thing, either. I remember visiting my in-laws once in their North Shore Chicago suburb. A sandwich/dessert shop had newly opened in the suburb's dowtown district. We went in after going to a movie, and it was packed. You could see that there was this tremendous pent-up demand for a convenient place to have some dessert before going home to stretch out a night out. I view these new high-end dessert places as being the dessert equivalent of New York's Pegu Club and Milk & Honey -- places that fill an old niche, but with a new attention to culinary sophistication. Not to take anything away from the people who run these places (which I love), but since it allows them to charge a lot more than the more traditional places did, that's just good marketing.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

I think we are talking about 2 different kinds of restaurants: those, like El Bulli or Alinea, where the boundaries between savoury and sweet are purposely being blurred and dissolved, and those restaurants like Room 4 Dessert and Espai Sucre where the same holds true, but ALSO, there is a clear spotlight on the pastry department, with savoury dishes playing second fiddle.

I'm trying to figure out where Sam's place would fit into all this...

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I apologize to Alex, as the foregoing appeared while my last (wordy) post was being composed. We're saying the same thing.

[AlexForbes]

Finally -- and without, I hope, seeming antagonistic -- I thought that Alex's comment about "stop[ping] in on your way home to grab something sweet" sort of misapprehends the way people use, and have always used, these "dessert only" places.

Not sure I misaprehended anything... I never meant to suggest that people should "stop in" at a place as full of culinary ambition as Room 4 Dessert, for a quick bite on something sweet, as they would at a pastry shop. In fact, I'm coming to NY next week so that I, among other things, can go try their full tasting menu. It'll be one of the highlights of my trip. (I do confess, though, that I've decided to stop in before at some other restaurant for a quick bite of something savoury, just so I don't arrive at Room 4 Dessert absolutely starving! ) Is that bad?

[Sneakeater]

All I meant is that even the old-school, much less ambitious dessert places were at least as much places you'd actually go to as part of an evening out as places you'd merely "stop in on the way home from work".

The Village -- to name one neighborhood -- is literally dotted with places like that.

So I think that, to many, it's now that they'd go to Room 4 Dessert or Chikalicious during a night out when before they (or members of predecessor generations) might have gone to, say, Rocco's or (a big step up) Lanciani. (I can't tell you how many dates with the woman I eventually married ended up at Lanciani.) The quality may be new, and the level of invention may be new, but the niche arguably isn't that new.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

In fact, I'm coming to NY next week so that I, among other things, can go try their full tasting menu. It'll be one of the highlights of my trip. (I do confess, though, that I've decided to stop in before at some other restaurant for a quick bite of something savoury, just so I don't arrive at Room 4 Dessert absolutely starving! ) Is that bad?

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I can never manage to hold "Room 4 Dessert" and "bad" together in the same thought pattern.

[LucyInAust]

My family's idea of heaven - dessert only

My father used to confuse waiters by ordering two desserts ... one for main and one for dessert ... he was of the opinion that if the things you liked most from a menu were dessert ... why not have both?

My family & friends went to one restaurant that was offer a 5 course semi-degustation menu ... and the waiter was very shocked and had to check with the kitchen when we choose 2 out of the 5 to be dessert! I'm also of the opinion that the dessert menu should not be separate ... rather it needs to be considered when selecting other courses ... you need to plan to have the rich gooey chocolate dessert in advance!!

BUT ... I know my family and friends are odd ... most people are happy to go out to dinner and skip dessert ... I'd rather skip mains I'd love a dessert only restaurant!

[Sethro]

Oddly, I would think that dessert-only restaurants would do better than dessert-centric restaurants.  Dessert-only restuarants are easy to understand.  There've been places you just go to for dessert -- the million Italian pastry shops in New York, for example -- since time immemorial.  Places where you have as many dessert courses as main courses, though, and where they're interspersed througout the meal, may be harder to understand.

Patisieries are much cheaper than dessert bars. They also require a much smaller time commitment.

Sweet courses interspersed with savory courses, is a meal. A meal is something people are willing to budget out a chunck of time and change for. All desserts does not a meal make.

Dessert bars seem to be doing very well so far, but I can't imagine a full-scale dessert restuarant staying afloat in NYC.

The focus of the issue should be emerging interest in the pastry chef's savory fare. Whatever reason we have for being drawn to pastry as supposed to hot-side, it reflects some difference in approach, and makes for some very intersting savory dishes.

Maybe one day people will even stop with the "cooking is art and baking is science" bit. I hate that so much.

[alanamoana]

i think dessert only restaurants are a great idea. i don't see there being a problem with the business side of it if the owners are creative. for example, they can sell desserts to other restaurants that don't have a pastry chef, they can sell to-go items, etc.

i feel that r4d is doing what i wish chikalicious would do. i was very underwhelmed by chikalicious. r4d on the other hand offers great cocktails and desserts which change often enough to warrant return visits (which is what you want in any restaurant...regular diners to pay the bills).

[docsconz]

In fact a number of hypermodern restaurants are really blurring the distinctions between savory and dessert courses. WD-50 has been doing that and Alinea is another as its "Tour" weaves its way in and out between savory and sweet. Indeed, I think this blurring is one of the hallmarks of hypermodernism as traditionally savory ingredients are used in desserts and vice versa.

←

Exactly, Docsconz, that's what I've noticed, too - hence that Ferran quote I included in my first post. However, when you say Sam's place will be much more than a dessert place, don't you think that, indirectly, you're saying that a dessert-centric restaurant is less of a restaurant because it doesn't have a comprehensive list of savoury dishes?

I think we are talking about 2 different kinds of restaurants: those, like El Bulli or Alinea, where the boundaries between savoury and sweet are purposely being blurred and dissolved, and those restaurants like Room 4 Dessert and Espai Sucre where the same holds true, but ALSO, there is a clear spotlight on the pastry department, with savoury dishes playing second fiddle.

I'm trying to figure out where Sam's place would fit into all this...

←

It is my impression that Sam's place will fit more into the former than the latter, which I would think is the main reason he left WD-50. It appears to me that Sam and Wylie remain close. There does not appear to be any difficulty or animosity between them - at least not from what I have witnessed. It makes sense to me that Sam wants to flex his savory muscles a bit more and that the best way to do that would be to open his own place. Of course, he is too good at dessert to give that up even if he wanted to which I do not think he does.

BTW, I think that there is plenty of room in NYC for top-notch dessert only restaurants/bars like Room 4 Dessert and others. Not everyone who goes out goes dining at retaurants with great or even good dessert programs. Plenty of people may have a less ambitious dinner and still want to go someplace for great and impressive desserts. It is a big city with a great variety of people.

[reenicake]

Plenty of people may have a less ambitious dinner and still want to go someplace for great and impressive desserts. It is a big city with a great variety of people.

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My sister and I ate at Room 4 Dessert this spring, and it is the perfect solution for those who interested in flavors in general but tend to the sweet/experimental rather than the savory. What we did was eat an inexpensive and not too filling dinner (ramen at Momofoku), then walk about 20 minutes to R4D. By then we were not too full and not too hungry; we each had one dessert and split another. Both places have a counter setup but Momofoku was much busier and louder. R4D was more comfortable, with better lighting, and we had a great time talking to both Mr. Goldfarb and the chef making the desserts.

[docsconz]

Plenty of people may have a less ambitious dinner and still want to go someplace for great and impressive desserts. It is a big city with a great variety of people.

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My sister and I ate at Room 4 Dessert this spring, and it is the perfect solution for those who interested in flavors in general but tend to the sweet/experimental rather than the savory. What we did was eat an inexpensive and not too filling dinner (ramen at Momofoku), then walk about 20 minutes to R4D. By then we were not too full and not too hungry; we each had one dessert and split another. Both places have a counter setup but Momofoku was much busier and louder. R4D was more comfortable, with better lighting, and we had a great time talking to both Mr. Goldfarb and the chef making the desserts.

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That is precisely the kind of situation to which I am refering. It is not an uncommon one, especially in that locale.

[Sneakeater]

And all I was saying is that it hasn't been uncommon for at least decades (if not centuries). It's just that now we have much more ambitious places seeking to serve that kind of situation.

Edited October 7, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sweet Kate]

Thoughts:

*When chefs say the lines are being blurred between sweet and savory, they might be referring to technique rather than just flavor. Sure ingredients are getting tossed around these days, but how often do savory tuiles, gelees, pannacottas show their faces lately?

*Pastry Chefs are important in the restaurant, usually the second “face,” though they rarely have ownership. Nobody blinks when a skilled, knowledgeable sous chef departs to open something new, why wouldn’t a pastry chef want to do the same?

*Sam Mason had the only dessert degustation I have seen. Even so, it was a pretty much a progression of his a la carte menu in smaller portions.

*Sugar, a dessert bar, in Chicago, closed two weeks after Bon Appetit (? I think, where’s my fact checker?) named Christine Mccabe (of Sugar) pastry chef of the year.

*Pastiche in Providence, RI is a wonderful patisserie open until 11 at night and often packed until then. They serve “sliced” desserts…is this a dessert “centric” restaurant? Does it matter they don’t serve liquor?

*Mindy Segal of HotChocolate in Chicago approaches savory food with a pastry sensibility. She also offers an extensive dessert and cheese list that parallels (if not eclipses, on paper) that of three star, fine dining restaurants in Chicago. Anyone been?

[AlexForbes]

It is my impression that Sam's place will fit more into the former than the latter, which I would think is the main reason he left WD-50. It makes sense to me that Sam wants to flex his savory muscles a bit more and that the best way to do that would be to open his own place. Of course, he is too good at dessert to give that up even if he wanted to which I do not think he does.

Well, I just interviewed the man himself, and can tell you that his menu will be about 70% desserts - so sure, he might want to flex his savoury muscles, but.... the restaurant will

clearly be dessert-centric. Savoury dishes - composing the remaining 30% of the menu -

will be small in size, which is why some have

referred to them as tapas. They will not, of course, resemble Spanish tapas at all,

except maybe in size.

Sweet Kate, I thought you brought up an excellent point: as boundaries between and savoury get blurred, we are indeed seeing several techniques often used in pastry being "transferred" over to the savoury dept.. In '94 Ferran did his first parmesan ice cream, and that's a good example of that. As are foie gras panacottas, cheese tuilles topping meats, the use of sorbets in appetizers, etc.

[docsconz]

It is my impression that Sam's place will fit more into the former than the latter, which I would think is the main reason he left WD-50. It makes sense to me that Sam wants to flex his savory muscles a bit more and that the best way to do that would be to open his own place. Of course, he is too good at dessert to give that up even if he wanted to which I do not think he does.

Well, I just interviewed the man himself, and can tell you that his menu will be about 70% desserts - so sure, he might want to flex his savoury muscles, but.... the restaurant will

clearly be dessert-centric. Savoury dishes - composing the remaining 30% of the menu -

will be small in size, which is why some have

referred to them as tapas. They will not, of course, resemble Spanish tapas at all,

except maybe in size.

Sweet Kate, I thought you brought up an excellent point: as boundaries between and savoury get blurred, we are indeed seeing several techniques often used in pastry being "transferred" over to the savoury dept.. In '94 Ferran did his first parmesan ice cream, and that's a good example of that. As are foie gras panacottas, cheese tuilles topping meats, the use of sorbets in appetizers, etc.

←

Very interesting, Alex. I look forward to reading the rest of your interview. Still, I wonder how the restaurant will evolve after it is open. I could see it going either way, that is developing a greater focus on the savory side or ultimately leaving savory altogether. The third possibility, of course, is that Sam and his crew are right on the money and the concept and actualization stay just as you have described. No matter which way it goes, I am looking forward to experiencing it and wish he and his restaurant the best.

As for blurring the lines by technique - absolutely. The Pacojet has certainly made that easier and more economical to do as savory ice creams have seemingly become ubiquitous. Certainly other techniques of the hypermodern repertoire have infiltrated both sides of the kitchen too with one technique recently increaing in visibility that of the croquant.