The Four Seasons

[llwb]

Has this restaurant fallen upon evil days or is it simply not in vogue or is there some other reason why it is never mentioned in these posts? I am looking for the best non-trendy, old-style, "haute cuisine" restaurant

in New York - would The Four Seasons fit that bill?

TIA

llwb

[Fat Guy]

I used to think I had the place figured out: I had come up with a very sophisticated-seeming justification/explantion for its country-club blandness. But my more recent meals there were so poor -- foodwise -- that I have written it off. It may be that the Four Seasons style of dining has come to an end. Then again you could make the argument that a foodie-appropriate version has arisen in the form of Craft. If it's Old New York you're looking for, the Grand Central Oyster Bar is a superb example but it's not haute at all. City Hall might be an interesting choice: Modern, but evocative of the Old New York style of cuisine. Tough question.

[TCD]

I am a big fan of this establishment (more so for dinner than lunch). The dinner service is always spot on for food, service and atmosphere. I find it to be a truly enchanting experience on each visit for dinner. Although the menu is not as progressive and innovative as some of the other top establishments in the city, the food is far from ordinary in concept and is always well executed. Then again, I do not think the educated diner visits the Four Seasons for cutting edge cuisine. It is not a fad follower or trend setter (other than setting the standard decades ago for fine Continental/American dining in NYC). It is consistent, traditional and timeless in many respects but not uninteresting or in a funk.

[Wilfrid]

As I've said before, I crossed The Four Seasons off my list after a very disappointing and expensive dinner about three years ago. Reading about it in the Wine Spectator earlier this year, I saw that there has been scarcely a change in the senior staff there in decades, and that may not be a good thing.

Non-trendy old style haute cuisine makes me think of the French warhorses - La Caravelle, La Cote Basque or Le Grenouille. But, if you can stand a few modernist touches in the decor, you might do best at Le Cirque.

[Bux]

I am looking for the best non-trendy, old-style, "haute cuisine" restaurant in New York - would The Four Seasons fit that bill?

Could you better define your terms. For me "haute cuisine" is almost inextricably aligned with French cuisine. I also fee that haute cuisine kitchens can only allow themselves to stay so far behind the times or risk being too stodgy to be considered "haute." I see a vast difference between contemporary and trendy. Lespinasse, Daniel and le Bernardin would fit the traditional bill for me. As Wilfrid suggests, a few of the older names might work better for you. I don't know the four seasons at all. The press it receives is exactly the kind that arouses no interest in me. "Fine Continental/American dining" is a much of a warning as I would need to surmise it's not my kind of restaurant.

[llwb]

Could you better define your terms. For me "haute cuisine" is almost inextricably aligned with French cuisine.

I was hoping you wouldn't ask me to do that. I think you're probably right about "haute" being aligned with "French." It appears, in any case, that other posters have understood it thus.

[ngatti]

As I've said before, I crossed The Four Seasons off my list after a very disappointing and expensive dinner about three years ago.  Reading about it in the Wine Spectator earlier this year, I saw that there has been scarcely a change in the senior staff there in decades, and that may not be a good thing.

Non-trendy old style haute cuisine makes me think of the French warhorses - La Caravelle, La Cote Basque or Le Grenouille.  But, if you can stand a few modernist touches in the decor, you might do best at Le Cirque.

Wilfred, The Seasons went through a remarkable makeover in the mid 70s. RA sold it to a couple of innovative managers (Paul Kovi/Tom Margattai). Keep in mind that James Beard was still involved with the restaurant at this time. But I think I agree with you. I came on board for a one year apprenticship in 1981. The two dining room managers are now the owners. The Sous Chef (for all intents and purposes at the time) is now the Executive Chef and I wouldn't be surprised if the Chefs de Partie are still there, toiling away at their respective stations. The captains and senior waitstaff (refugees from the QEI and Queen Mary) are probably gone as is Oreste Carnivale (Maitre'd). But I'm sure the old girl soldiers on. I will say that it was such a comfortable place to work and in the time I was there was a such innovative place, that staff found it difficult too leave. If they did leave they were looked at as freaks. One talented young woman went to work at Hubert's and we all tried to talk her out of leaving. The feeling we had was that at the time we thought we working in the finest restaurant in the world. I might say that The Seasons is ready for another revolutionary makeover. It is a superb space.

Nick

[Wilfrid]

Thanks for the background, Nick. I think twenty years without a change at the top speaks for itself. But I guess they're making money.

Now, didn't you have an anecdote about this place?

[ngatti]

Perfect segue, Wilfred

There was once a young poor commis whose job was to prepare the fresh killed ducks for The Four Seasons, Farmhouse Duck. Occasionally business outstripped supply so he was forced to use frozen LI ducks. The commis' station in the butcher shop was next to Chef Josef (Seppi) Renggli's. He had the ducks slacked in a sink full of cold water. During this time a familiar booming voice loudly asks "What's for lunch, Chef?". Oh jeez!, the commis says to himself, James Beard himself! In the Flesh! Cool!!

Thwack!! a cutting board is smacked down over the sink almost smashing the commis' fingers.

Chef and Legend consult over the lunch to be prepared and the commis continues working stealing a glance at the legend from time to time.

Beard eventually leaves to eat his lunch and the commis timidly asks the chef why he smashed the cutting board onto the sink?

Seppi Replies: "Listen, Gatti, Ven Mr. Beard comes into the kitchen, ve never vant him to see the frozen ducks!"

Nick

[Bux]

You apply the description "stodgy" whereas I might name "behind the times" something like classical or traditional.   I'd like to order some sweetbreads in brown butter, lemon, capers, a boiled potato, and a few string beans....  Why shouldn't this be an option as well - if only from time to time?

At least you've hit upon the reason I thought it was necessary to define your terms. I don't know if you can find that sort of perfectly cooked French food today. Part of the problem is that, there are few diners who want that option more than from time to time. I'm not even sure most people would consider that haute cuisine today. I suspect it's not profitable for a top restaurant to maintain a menu full of items like that, but I'd look at the restaurants Wilfird suggests. I don't know if they have web sites with current menus, but you might call them and ask each of them to fax a copy of their current menu. My second suggestion would be to contact the best French restaurants in town, I'd skip le Bernardin as it's primarily a fish restaurant and aks them if they could prepare a certain dish for you on order. I suspect the kitchens of Lespinasse, Daniel, Jean Georges and the like are well stocked with classically trained line cooks and they could fulfill your request with no trouble.

As for options, I suspect the devoted fans of comtemporary art enjoy a vist to the Louvre or Prado from time to time. I've often felt there was use for a museum restaurant--not a restaurant in a museum, but one that cooked food no longer in style. Just as museums have special exhibits, this restaurant could present the food of la Pyramid or l'Hotel de la Cote d'Or from the 50's as a special offering for two week period. Could you get the best line cooks and chefs necessary to do it right or would you only end up with eager students and a lukewarm version of the original?

Good luck on your hunt and please let us know if you find what you are looking for, where you find it, and how good it was.

[Wilfrid]

Thanks, Nick - that was the one!

[Fat Guy]

When I say the food at the Four Seasons is poor, I'm not condemning the style. I can justify the style. If a restaurant wants to operate within a certain milieu I'm willing -- to a great extent -- to judge that restaurant on how well it works given its goals. But I've been to the Four Seasons several times in the past three years -- probably five or six times not counting three or four private parties -- and the food itself has been poor. The duck has been dry, the seafood has not been of high quality, the vegetables have been cooked to extinction, and every single plate of food has arrived at near to room temperature. Service has been on most occasions adequate (the waitstaff is large, which helps to some extent) by the standards of a suburban country club but the staff is pretty much mailing it in. I had one service incident that was pretty horrifying but it was probably an anomaly; still, even setting it aside, the service has been mediocre. The place itself is quite nice in a tacky sort of way, and I like the mural, but I don't see the attraction. If you're a regular business-lunch customer you get access to a higher level of service and some special food items, but even at that level (which I have experienced as a guest) the food experience viewed in isolation is rather ordinary -- though not bad.

[Wilfrid]

As far as you can tell, Steven, are they still packing 'em in?

[Fat Guy]

Definitely not. I can't see how they stay in business, though perhaps they own the property and have no debt. In that situation you can sustain a declining restaurant for a very long time.

[ngatti]

Unfortunately, Steve, It has been that way for a while. Even in my time, friday and saturday were production nites (600+) couverts. Impossible to manage. You're quite right if you were Bocuse, Kissinger, or Ford you were jumped on. Lunch in the Grill room is indeed akin to a private club. With tables doled out to various movers and shakers.

I only take exception to your broad brush re suburban clubs. Yeah most do...well..they are somewhat less than. Even mine on occasion. But could ya, would ya, lose a couple of bristles when you you get to the Alpine CC. We try within the natural constraints imposed on us. Even Michelle Fitoussi now works in a private suburban club.

Thanks muchly

Nick

[Fat Guy]

Should we have a thread on club food?

[ngatti]

Definitely not. I can't see how they stay in business, though perhaps they own the property and have no debt. In that situation you can sustain a declining restaurant for a very long time.

Remember it has always been a tourist destination. I don't know what the financial arrngements are re Von Bidde/Niccolini/Bronfman. But they seem to do alright re the reviewers. I think the latest in the times was 3 stars. Though that was some time ago. I think the critics are known to the staff. I also think that many are loathe for whatever reason to kick the old lady about, perhaps hoping upon hope that she'll be rescued and restored to former glory.

Jeez I can't believe I'm doing this, I'm in the middle of a 200 ppl golf outing. Gotta run guys. it's been fun

Nick

[Fat Guy]

This item appeared in New York Magazine on May 27 of 2002: Change of Seasons? Buzz is, Edgar Bronfman Jr. wants to buy back his share in the Four Seasons restaurant. Bronfman gave up his stake when Vivendi acquired Bronfman's Seagram and Universal businesses two years ago. Four Seasons co-owner Julian Niccolini insists he doesn't know about any deal, but would welcome Bronfman back: "That would be wonderful."

Ruth Reichl seems to have given the place three stars in April of 1998. Then again she gave a lot of places three stars. On the Grimes scale I feel confident it would be a one-star, with two stars being awarded reluctantly because he never seems to depart more than one star-increment from a previous Times reviewer's opinion. (The principle of stare decisis in restaurant reviewing, I suppose.)

[ngatti]

Based on the descriptions here..perhaps none to 1/2 star. Sometimes a little shock is in order. That which doen't kill us makes us stronger.

Nick

[Wilfrid]

Well, with Wine Spectator practically devoting an issue to the place earlier this year, maybe something is needed to shake their complacency. I tried using it as a place to take clients who needed to be treated but might not want challenging cuisine. Trouble is, they didn't think much of it. I went back to using Aureole instead .

Off the subject, I know, but one depressing thing about being able to take a client out is when you know they just want to eat some chicken or a steak and will feel uncomfortable with anything else.

[Fat Guy]

Steak is good! I'd view it as an opportunity to go someplace that serves a great one.

Do you recall what issue of WS that was? I'd like to look it up online.

[Wilfrid]

1. I'll check tonight, but I think my copy is in the library at the country estate in the Bronx. To narrow it down, I am fairly sure it was this year, that The Four Seasons was the cover story, and that it was either the Restaurant issue or the issue where they give out Awards to restaurants for their wine cellars (if those are two different things).

2. Well, steak. That's a thread I thought about starting: Isn't steak boring? I like to eat a good steak about once every three or four months, but it's way down my list of preferred foods, and I do see it as a "safe" option for people who don't like challenging textures and tastes. What do you think? I'll get killed, won't I? On the other hand, I can quote the Blessed Liebling in my defense.

[Fat Guy]

Start that thread and I'll see you there.

[llwb]

Do you recall what issue of WS that was? I'd like to look it up online.

I spent some time today at the Wine Spectator site but could find no mention of an article "earlier this year" on The Four Seasons. I'd like to check it out on line as well if someone can identify the issue. TIA

[Wilfrid]

Yes, I looked to, and no sign of it. Maybe it was another eGullet dream. I'll try to dig out the hard copy, but if it's in the Bronx stacks, you may have to wait until next week.