Adventures with sodium alginate

[kirbyc]

I was able to get the "ravioli" just fine. I made one with avocado and one with sweet pea. However, I am wondering if anyone knows how to get a thicker "skin" on finished product. Rather than having it be a thin skin.....is there anyway to get it "al dente" so to speak. I just ate at Alinea and their beet "ravioli" contrasted more. i.e. the outside and inside were very different.

In short, is there a way to get the ravioli harder on the outside?

[BryanZ]

Perhaps a longer cooking time?

What did you do with the avocado? That sounds VERY interesting to me; I'd love to hear your basic process.

[kirbyc]

I've really been trying to make "ravioli" out of every conceivable ingredient. Avocados worked well. I just pureed and strained them (1 cup). Boiled the correct amount of alginate (1/2 tsp) and water (1 cup) and blended that into the puree after it cooled. Then I dropped the mixture into the CaCl2 bath for 3-5 minutes - that's it. Pretty much the same result as the peas. Just a different taste, but similar texture.

I'm wondering your line of thought with regards to the butter and maple syrup "orb" or "ravioli." That process sounds more complex.....Honey would be cool too...with peanut butter.

Edited June 24, 2006 by kirbyc (log)

[Tonyy13]

How is the shape of you guys ravioli? Mine keep coming out flat and long, like a raw oyster almost. Any tips? I am using a half-hemisphere espresso scoop that has the final shape I want, but am having unsatisfactory results.

Also, was playing more today, trying a mushroom tea, using the amount of 250g. Tea with a CaCl2 bath of 500g. of water to 2.5g. of CaCl2. My caviar were coming out flat on the top, and were floating on the surface, disallowing me to remove them from the bath effectively.

Any ideas?

TA

[BryanZ]

I've had the floating problem, too. My best bet is to put in a batch and wait a couple minutes until it's mostly set. Then GENTLY bathe the tops by rocking the pan or using a small spoon and spooning the CaCl bathwater on top.

If you're getting oblong shapes, I might suggest a quicker "flick of the wrist." It's not all that technical a term but it should keep the liquid in a tighter orb.

The butter is just really hard. When I tried to melt it and add it to a bath it just separates. It's hard to keep the emulsion together in liquid form. Maple syrup shouldn't be too hard. All you would have to do is just dilute it a bit with some water (like you did with avocado puree) then alginate.

[ChefJB]

Bryan,

have you thought about mixing a small amount of gellan with the butter, letting it cool down to become more solid. Then shaping it and warming it to get your liquid center? Just a thought.

[Tonyy13]

Bryan, another idea I had on teh way home today was to use a powdered lecithin, an emulsifyer. It works with mayo and hollandaise, so why not this? Also, I was thinking about why some liquids float, and the apple juice mixture I tried first way back when sunk, and my hypthesis is that the sugar molecules actually fill in the gaps between the water molecules (thank you Harold McGee and On Food and Cooking), so it becomes heavier than "normal water" or normal brix mixtures. Any thoughts?

Also, I did some seriously rigid "scientific" testing today at work. It was nice to have the whole school to myself. Made two batches(250g. ea) of reduced apple juice (using this becuase it is the only substance I have had limited success before today), one with 2g. of alginate, and one with 4g. of alginate. I made 5 water CaCl2 baths (from 1g. to 5g. of CaCl2 to 500g. of water). If you want my table of results, pm me, I will email it to you. Found some very interesting things. Nothing earthshattering, but some good info, nonetheless....

[BryanZ]

Bryan,

have you thought about mixing a small amount of gellan with the butter, letting it cool down to become more solid. Then shaping it and warming it to get your liquid center? Just a thought.

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Bryan, another idea I had on teh way home today was to use a powdered lecithin, an emulsifyer.  It works with mayo and hollandaise, so why not this?  Also, I was thinking about why some liquids float, and the apple juice mixture I tried first way back when sunk, and my hypthesis is that the sugar molecules actually fill in the gaps between the water molecules (thank you Harold McGee and On Food and Cooking), so it becomes heavier than "normal water" or normal brix mixtures.  Any thoughts? 

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ChefJB, I don't quite understand your idea. Do you mean, melt the butter, add the gellan and alginate, resolidify, then scoop into balls and dip into CaCl? This could be possible, but I'd love to hear a clearer idea of what you're proposing. A problem I forsee is how do I keep the butter emulsified after I melt it and need to re-set it. What if we just did this out of clarified butter? That would get rid of the emulsion problem, but oil is always less dense than water. Ideas?

Tonyy13, I use lecithin for airs and things like that and you maybe onto something. I think you're talking about making a liquid butter that still remains emulsified while the spheres are being formed. I might try this, I would love for you to do the same and share your results.

And yes, it makes sense that a satured water solution would be more dense than "plain" water.

[percyn]

Got my "Trinity" from Willpoder on Friday, just in time for me to experiment over the weekend. One of the vendors, in the farmers market that I frequent on Saturdays had some good looking peas, so when I asked him whether it was good for "pea soup", he replied..."nah, these peas are too good for that". This I had to explain the concept of the borderless pea ravioli and that I was after the "essence' of peas, and a smile came over his face, endorsing the idea by saying..."these would be perfect for it".

Anyway, so on to my first experiment....

Experiment #1 - The obligatory Pea Ravioli

The first batch was a bit tricky, with the shapes looking more like tadpoles than ravioli, but after a few trials, it was easier and while the shape was not completely spherical in the CaCl2 solution, they do get rounder under their own weight when on the spoon.

Yes, I copied Bryan's plating

A small squeeze bottle seemed to yield good caviar results

Experiment # 2 - Tomato and Basil ravioli

Skinned, de-seeded and crushed some vine ripe tomatoes along with some cinnamon basil. These were a bit harder to set due to the increase in pH, however a bit more alginate and longer time in the CaCl2 bath did allow a few to set enough so that it would not rupture when removed from the solution.

These were far superior in flavor to the pea ravioli, but alas, not many survived.

I have to say, that after eating about 10-15 of these raviolis, I did start to get a bit sick from the alginate, so I guess moderation is the key here...as usual

Cheers

Percy

[ChefJB]

Bryan,

What I was trying unsuccesfully to explain was using the Gellan in place of the alginate as I seem to remember reading that it will behave the same as alginate in the chloride bath. So when you drop the melted butter into the bath it will for the polymer skin, it should set up in the cool water.You could then perfect the shape then the high melting point of the gellan might allow you to heat it without bursting the skin. It was just a thought I had when I read your butter woes.

[BryanZ]

I have not read that gellan forms a gel when in contact with CaCl. I will look into that further.

The problem I have is that when melted the butter separates, even when I try to re-emulsify it through whisking. It won't stay in orbs when in contact with the CaCl.

Percy, welcome to the club.

[kirbyc]

Just a random conclusion I've reached. I have been adding a little xanthum gum (1/4 to 1/2 tsp) per 1 cup of liquid. It has worked quite well. Too much xanthum will make the liquid too "gummy." But, if you can get the right amount you can technically make anything "orb" - using the alginate and CaCl2 bath. I think the xanthum helps thicken any juice or liquid which, in turn, assists the alginate in the whole process.??..

Perhaps this will help some of you, perhaps it won't.

P.S. did you see wylie on Iron Chef. He killed it. Though he didn't prevail.

Edited June 26, 2006 by kirbyc (log)

[BryanZ]

I use a fair amount of xanthan in the kictchen, but alginate is a powerful thickener in itself. I'd love for you to experiment with the butter, too, as it's something everyone talks about but can't really figure out.

And, yes, there's actually a thread here about that battle. A great one, albeit with a bland ingredient.

[edsel]

(...)

I did start to get a bit sick from the alginate, so I guess moderation is the key here...as usual

Cheers

Percy

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Are you saying the alginate made you feel ill? I just got my package from WillPowder yesterday and haven't tried out the alginate yet.

I thought that since the alginate is just a seaweed extract, it should be relatively benign. Is it the calcium salts that cause the distress?

[foodite]

I haven't received my package of alginate and calcium yet, but am really excited to try all this stuff out.

I was wondering the same thing as Edsel. Can you actually taste the alginate or is it flavorless? And what about the residue from the calcium bath? What would happen if you didn't rinse off the ravioli/orbs in terms of taste?

[Kerry Beal]

I haven't received my package of alginate and calcium yet, but am really excited to try all this stuff out.

I was wondering the same thing as Edsel.  Can you actually taste the alginate or is it flavorless?  And what about the residue from the calcium bath?  What would happen if you didn't rinse off the ravioli/orbs in terms of taste?

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Gotta rinse them off, or there is a chemical taste. The alginate does have some flavour that it adds, not unpleasant, but if I eat a fair amount I do notice it makes me feel a bit queazy.

[tan319]

Great post. Been doing similar experiments myself since getting hold of some alginate, calcium chloride and sodium citrate. Getting the ravioli shapes right is a bit tricky, but El Bulli style caviar is a cinch if you try using a dropper or syringe.

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Thanks, Digijam. I definitely made some accidental caviar just from having drops fall off the spoon I was using to make ravioli. I'd like to try a dropper or syringe; any ideas on where I can find one, and what size I can get? I imagine the type used medically is too small, but maybe I'm wrong.

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I think you can buy syringes OTC at drug stores in most states.

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I bought a ton of those syringes that are in those El Bulli starchefs videos at CVS in Miami.

I'm sure they're everywhere else too.

[Tonyy13]

Ok, so quick update. I have been swamped at the school for the last few days so not a lot of time to play. We had some liquid lecithin at work, so I took some home and in between shifts today, was just screwing around to see what I could do with it. I used about 50/50 canola oil to water, added about a half a tsp. of liquid lecithin, and beurre mixed. Three hours later, when I went to work, it was still emulsified, even if the top of the mixture was starting to turn a little more yellow in color than white. I would be willing to bet that if you emulsify some melted butter with water (think Keller's butter/water emulsion that he cooks everything in) after blooming alginate in the water, that all will become very clear on the butter orb front. At least, I hope it will anyway. The only problem I see is in a kitchen, you would need to keep the emulsion warm in order to do these to order, but if you had a handy dandy immersion blender, no problem. The question then becomes, will your emulsion break within your "orb" because it is heated, leaving you with a very layered butter and water looking thing? Could this be averted by some xantham?

Edited becuase I had the words "I have no doubt that..."... and to be honest, I have doubts about all of this process. See upthread about Maine Public School Science requirements for graduation!!

Edited June 27, 2006 by Tonyy13 (log)

[Tonyy13]

Oh, hey guys, forgot to mention, anyone tried using the calcium lactate? Wondering if it is worth another call to R4D. Also, I was gifted some tylose and gum tragacanth tonight, any ideas if either would be applicable here?

[BryanZ]

The alginated beurre monte idea is brilliant. Especially if you stablized the emulsification with some lecithin it just might work. I'm beginning to see a light, if only theoretically.

To those of you who are wondering about the flavors of alginate and CaCl, they're both distinct. I've chronicled how CaCl tastes in previous posts. I'll remind you, it's not good at all. Alginate also has a distinct taste, more apparent to some than others, just don't add too much and you're good.

[percyn]

(...)

I did start to get a bit sick from the alginate, so I guess moderation is the key here...as usual

Cheers

Percy

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Are you saying the alginate made you feel ill? I just got my package from WillPowder yesterday and haven't tried out the alginate yet.

I thought that since the alginate is just a seaweed extract, it should be relatively benign. Is it the calcium salts that cause the distress?

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It was more of the after-taste if you eat a lot of it (just as you would eat a lot of seaweed). It could have been the CaCL2, but I did dip each ravioli into a water bath before consuming it.

[Kerry Beal]

Has anyone tried to duplicate the El Bulli olive sphere?

Any thoughts on a recipe?

[Tonyy13]

Kerry, see upthread about thoughts on the butter orb, which would linclude having to use either a powdered or liquid lecithin (we think!). No tests run yet, but I am doing a run on "real people" (my parents) when I cook them dinner this week with the apple caviar. Going to steep the juice with some fresh thyme, then serve the apple caviar with brunoise apple, thyme leaves and some Maldon sea salt. Will let you guys know how it goes!!

Quick Idea.... Two flavor Ravioli!! I remember reading somewhere about Wylie trying to inject something into the middle and struggling with it. I am wondering if you use one of those oral syringes and pump some liquid into the middle of your originoal flavor in order to get a second flavor in the middle of your rav. So many ideas, so little time/product!

[Kerry Beal]

Kerry, see upthread about thoughts on the butter orb, which would linclude having to use either a powdered or liquid lecithin (we think!).  No tests run yet, but I am doing a run on "real people" (my parents) when I cook them dinner this week with the apple caviar.  Going to steep the juice with some fresh thyme, then serve the apple caviar with brunoise apple, thyme leaves and some Maldon sea salt.  Will let you guys know how it goes!!

Quick Idea.... Two flavor Ravioli!!  I remember reading somewhere about Wylie trying to inject something into the middle and struggling with it.  I am wondering if you use one of those oral syringes and pump some liquid into the middle of your originoal flavor in order to get a second flavor in the middle of your rav.  So many ideas, so little time/product!

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Re the two flavours, did you see in the original link to the recipes from Texturas, the frozen lemon juice, placed in the dosing spoon, the other liquid added, then rolled out into the calcium solution?

[pounce]

How about making the caviar then making a ravioli with a spoon of the caviar and another liquid? A ravioli with little spheres floating inside would be fun.