Adventures with sodium alginate

[Jonathan Kaplan]

Other people with more experience will no doubt chime in here, but briefly:

"Once you are done for the day with your calcic bath, how long can you keep it to play around with some more?"

Up to several days, I would guess. But I found that it loses effectiveness with use (not with time). So after a fair bit of use, it seems to need recharging with more calcic.

"Is there a way to conserve the caviar? For how long? (ex: ı made the caviar a lot of caviar for the restaurant early in the morning. Can it last at least until the last customer leave around 2am?)"

See the tread on "gluco." The problem with the alginate is it keeps 'working' even after it has been rinsed, so the caviar gets chewier and more tasteless the longer it sits around. Letting it rest after rinsing in a flavorful liquid helps, but doesn't solve the problem. "Reverse" sphericalization with gluco avoids that problem, but adds some others. Same holds true for the larger sizes.

"Once I made the mix (ex:fresh fruit juice with algin) how long can ı keep it in the fridge?"

As long as the fresh fruit juice. Actually, with many preparations, it is better to let the algin mix 'rest' in the fridge over-night or so anyway.

jk

[BryanZ]

JK is right on in his descriptions; they align exactly with my experiences.

[mathieu77]

Thanks guys for the input. I add another experimentation last week, the theme was to recreate a turkish desert ''ElBulli'' s style .

I use a very popular desert that most of turkish people know, it s call ''ayva tatlısı''. It s actually quinces cook in a sugar syrup with cloves, there are cook with there own seeds which gives the red color. They are served with ''kaymak'', heavy cream in english must be the accurate translation.

As far as the experiment went it was quite easy I made a puree out of the cured quinces and add some of its syrup to come to a good texture. Them I added algin and cooked it in calcic bath.

The result was pretty good in term of taste very close to the original, the only thing I could not reach was the intense red color of the cured quince. Here are some pics.

Once again thanks you for the feed back from JK and BrianZ, believe me it s precious help.

PS: working now on mango syrup raviolo

Thanks for reading,

Mathieu.

[logicalmind]

I am putting together an easter dinner menu and I plan to do a ham. As I was thinking about ways to incorporate some MG into this feast I came to the idea that I could do honey caviar to serve over the slices of ham.

I have yet to attempt this, but the first problem that strikes me is the viscosity of honey will make it difficult to incorporate the alginate into it. One way would be to use a bit of heat. Another way could be to dilute the honey. I'm tossing these ideas around in my mind. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas before I give this a shot? I'll post my results, and hopefully pictures.

Thanks!

[logicalmind]

Here is my honey experiment. All of the products I used were from Will Powder. First I took 200g of water and blended it with 2.0g of sodium alginate. I blended it on high for about a minute or so. I then poured this mixture into a cup with 50g of honey. Just basic honey, nothing fancy. Here is what it looked like(notice I didn't let it rest to get the bubbles out, though it didn't particularly matter for this experiment):

I then filled my syringe and started making drops into a bath of 2.5g of calcium chloride and 500g of water:

Next I poured them through a strainer into another bowel. I find this easier than trying to rescue them out of one single bowl:

Next I rinse them under cold water and here is what we have:

Here they are on a spoon:

And here they are in a bowl:

The taste of these was just OK. I used my wife for a second opinion. The skin was nicely thin but the interior was quite gummy. I tasted the sodium alginate and honey solution and it had a little sweetness, but nothing like the honey I was after. So I added another 50g of honey to the existing mixture and tried again. This time the honey taste was more perceptible, but still not quite what I hoped. The color was still more white than honey color. So I added another 50g of honey to the mix. This version was nearly perfect. Nearly complete honey taste with a very thin skin. My wife really liked them. For the heck of it I threw another 50g of honey into the mix, and believe it or not it still held. The balls were very squishy so I had to leave them in the bath a bit longer. But they tasted fine. My wife didn't like the texture and said they were too squishy. Here is a side view of the various versions. The further the bowl is away from you in the picture, the more honey they contained. You can kinda see how they become more golden:

My conclusions are this. I went into it thinking I would have to be pinpoint precise down the tenths of grams. But in reality I was winging it. I think the mixtures and tastes of your caviar are going to be highly dependent on what your base flavor is. In the case of honey it was very stable and easy to do. I had previously tried this experience with a cantelope puree and I didn't really like it. If I had just played around some more I probably could have arrived at a better outcome.

Also, for the fun of it, I put one bowl in the fridge. One bowl in the freezer. And am leaving one bowel on the counter. I plan to taste them again tomorrow and see what happens to them....

[gfron1]

Logicalmind, the variation on your technique that I found helpful was that I rested my strainer in the CaChl bath, so after the SA caviar set up, I just lifted the strainer and the dipped it in my rinse. I did this to minimize the risk of damaging the caviar.

[Jonathan Kaplan]

Interesting. About 6g/l (+/- 2g/l) sodium alginate is what the recipes recommend. So 2g/250ml (200 ml water/alginate + 50g honey) is a bit on the 'thick' side. Adding another 100g honey brought you to 2g/350ml, or right around 6g/l. And this was your favorite... By 400ml, you've dropped to only 5g/l, which might be a bit low.

As another experiment, you might try mixing the algin with less water, and letting it sit in the fridge overnight to fully hydrate, then add honey up to the 5g/l level. The algin is supposedly more effective, and hence less of it is required, after it has fully hydrated.

jk

Here is my honey experiment. All of the products I used were from Will Powder. First I took 200g of water and blended it with 2.0g of sodium alginate. I blended it on high for about a minute or so. I then poured this mixture into a cup with 50g of honey. Just basic honey, nothing fancy. Here is what it looked like(notice I didn't let it rest to get the bubbles out, though it didn't particularly matter for this experiment):

The taste of these was just OK. I used my wife for a second opinion. The skin was nicely thin but the interior was quite gummy. I tasted the sodium alginate and honey solution and it had a little sweetness, but nothing like the honey I was after. So I added another 50g of honey to the existing mixture and tried again. This time the honey taste was more perceptible, but still not quite what I hoped. The color was still more white than honey color. So I added another 50g of honey to the mix. This version was nearly perfect. Nearly complete honey taste with a very thin skin. My wife really liked them. For the heck of it I threw another 50g of honey into the mix, and believe it or not it still held. The balls were very squishy so I had to leave them in the bath a bit longer. But they tasted fine. My wife didn't like the texture and said they were too squishy. Here is a side view of the various versions. The further the bowl is away from you in the picture, the more honey they contained. You can kinda see how they become more golden:

My conclusions are this. I went into it thinking I would have to be pinpoint precise down the tenths of grams. But in reality I was winging it. I think the mixtures and tastes of your caviar are going to be highly dependent on what your base flavor is. In the case of honey it was very stable and easy to do. I had previously tried this experience with a cantelope puree and I didn't really like it. If I had just played around some more I probably could have arrived at a better outcome.

Also, for the fun of it, I put one bowl in the fridge. One bowl in the freezer. And am leaving one bowel on the counter. I plan to taste them again tomorrow and see what happens to them....

←

[xdrixn]

housemade orbitz. thanks to ted russin of cpkelco for teaching me how to do this.

[nerdy]

as to earlier posts someone listed a shrimp stock for a sfer... shrimp is higher in calcium than some milk products... so its ph can be up to 7. so youd need to adjust stuff to make it work. or reverse. ph of 4 works well, right?

[craig001]

I just found this thread through a Google search. Simply fantastic. I am a non-traditional Culinary Arts student in St. Louis, MO and am starting to plan my 'Meal" for a Meal Planning/OPs class I will be taking.

I was going to do a Flourless Chocolate Cake with Vanilla Poached Pear Puree and Raspberries, then I started to think about doing the chocolate portion as a Taglitelli (sp) or a spun round of say linguine, then I saw a piece on el Bulli and thought about chocolate pearls on a vanilla pear foam... I am just bouncing all over with this. But would the foam support the chocolate pearl?

The joys of Google searching....

[Beto]

Welcome to the madness.

[percyn]

I just found this thread through a Google search.  Simply fantastic.  I am a non-traditional Culinary Arts student in St. Louis, MO and am starting to plan my 'Meal" for a Meal Planning/OPs class I will be taking.

I was going to do a Flourless Chocolate Cake with Vanilla Poached Pear Puree and Raspberries, then I started to think about doing the chocolate portion as a Taglitelli (sp) or a spun round of say linguine, then I saw a piece on el Bulli and thought about chocolate pearls on a vanilla pear foam... I am just bouncing all over with this. But would the foam support the chocolate pearl?

The joys of Google searching....

←

Depends on the size of the pearls and density of the foam. If pearls are too heavy, try "caviar" or put the foam on top.

[craig001]

Thanks for the welcome.

Even though this class is about a year off for me (depends on availability of the pre-req's I need) I have been developing the menu and concept. I have been building an idea for a restaurant from the start and using each class to help develop the concept. Anyway, this meal planning/restaurant ops class is the last class I will need. So I am currently shooting for Fall 2008 ( two classes I signed up for this summer were canceled and I am waiting to see about the fall classes I enrolled in). So I need to get my chemicals and equipment and start playing. I am thinking about using this technique for both dessert offerings and two of the three items on the app/salad offering.

[cheftom]

Hey All,

I'm a new poster here, but I've been reading the pages for a little bit now. I'm a Chef in New Brunswick, NJ and I've really been getting into "molecular gastranomy" recently. I ran a special this past weekend of Green Tea Cured Salmon with Spiced Yoghurt Pearls, Micro Shisho, and Yuzu Aioli. I made the pearls by mixing the yoghurt with cream, sugar, and togarashi. I then put the mixture into a sodium alginate bath and let them sit for 3 minutes. They came out very nicely and when you broke the skin the yogurt oozed out over the salmon like a sauce.

My Webpage

[Jonathan Kaplan]

Hey All,

I'm a new poster here, but I've been reading the pages for a little bit now.  I'm a Chef in New Brunswick, NJ and I've really been getting into "molecular gastranomy" recently.  I ran a special this past weekend of Green Tea Cured Salmon with Spiced Yoghurt Pearls, Micro Shisho, and Yuzu Aioli.  I made the pearls by mixing the yoghurt with cream, sugar, and togarashi.  I then put the mixture into a sodium alginate bath and let them sit for 3 minutes.  They came out very nicely and when you broke the skin the yogurt oozed out over the salmon like a sauce.

My Webpage

←

Very cool. From the pic -- and it might be misleading as I can't really tell how big the plate is -- the yoghurt spheres look closer to ravioli or gnocci sized..? Is the point in this preparation to 'sauce' the salmon without having to bring it out covered in a dull-looking sauce -- so you get the cool look of the cured salmon first...? (I've found the sphereification techniques to be quite good for that...)

BTW: How is the green tea curing done?

jk

[cheftom]

I used a 1/2 tsp. spoon for the yoghurt so they were like smaller ravioli. I wanted the yoghurt to break and "sauce" the salmon as my guest ate the dish. I cured the salmon using equal parts sugar and salt ground with gun powder green tea, thyme, cilantro, and peppercorns. I packed the cure on the salmon fillet and let it sit for 3 days, then I rinsed off the cure and let the salmon air dry for another 2 days.

Hey All,

I'm a new poster here, but I've been reading the pages for a little bit now.  I'm a Chef in New Brunswick, NJ and I've really been getting into "molecular gastranomy" recently.  I ran a special this past weekend of Green Tea Cured Salmon with Spiced Yoghurt Pearls, Micro Shisho, and Yuzu Aioli.  I made the pearls by mixing the yoghurt with cream, sugar, and togarashi.  I then put the mixture into a sodium alginate bath and let them sit for 3 minutes.  They came out very nicely and when you broke the skin the yogurt oozed out over the salmon like a sauce.

My Webpage

←

Very cool. From the pic -- and it might be misleading as I can't really tell how big the plate is -- the yoghurt spheres look closer to ravioli or gnocci sized..? Is the point in this preparation to 'sauce' the salmon without having to bring it out covered in a dull-looking sauce -- so you get the cool look of the cured salmon first...? (I've found the sphereification techniques to be quite good for that...)

BTW: How is the green tea curing done?

jk

←

[rmillman]

I used a 1/2 tsp. spoon for the yoghurt so they were like smaller ravioli. I wanted the yoghurt to break and "sauce" the salmon as my guest ate the dish. I cured the salmon using equal parts sugar and salt ground with gun powder green tea, thyme, cilantro, and peppercorns. I packed the cure on the salmon fillet and let it sit for 3 days, then I rinsed off the cure and let the salmon air dry for another 2 days.

Hey All,

I'm a new poster here, but I've been reading the pages for a little bit now.  I'm a Chef in New Brunswick, NJ and I've really been getting into "molecular gastranomy" recently.  I ran a special this past weekend of Green Tea Cured Salmon with Spiced Yoghurt Pearls, Micro Shisho, and Yuzu Aioli.  I made the pearls by mixing the yoghurt with cream, sugar, and togarashi.  I then put the mixture into a sodium alginate bath and let them sit for 3 minutes.  They came out very nicely and when you broke the skin the yogurt oozed out over the salmon like a sauce.

My Webpage

←

I have been recently using low-methoxy pectin (another Ca dependent gelling agent) in combination with sodium alginate when doing reverse with an alginate bath (cut back alginate 1/2 and use equal amounts LMP). I like the mouth feel of LMP, it doesn't impact taste when left to sit and the skin is a little more firm so it is easier to handle.

[cheftom]

Where are you getting the LMP?

I used a 1/2 tsp. spoon for the yoghurt so they were like smaller ravioli. I wanted the yoghurt to break and "sauce" the salmon as my guest ate the dish. I cured the salmon using equal parts sugar and salt ground with gun powder green tea, thyme, cilantro, and peppercorns. I packed the cure on the salmon fillet and let it sit for 3 days, then I rinsed off the cure and let the salmon air dry for another 2 days.

Hey All,

I'm a new poster here, but I've been reading the pages for a little bit now.  I'm a Chef in New Brunswick, NJ and I've really been getting into "molecular gastranomy" recently.  I ran a special this past weekend of Green Tea Cured Salmon with Spiced Yoghurt Pearls, Micro Shisho, and Yuzu Aioli.  I made the pearls by mixing the yoghurt with cream, sugar, and togarashi.  I then put the mixture into a sodium alginate bath and let them sit for 3 minutes.  They came out very nicely and when you broke the skin the yogurt oozed out over the salmon like a sauce.

My Webpage

←

I have been recently using low-methoxy pectin (another Ca dependent gelling agent) in combination with sodium alginate when doing reverse with an alginate bath (cut back alginate 1/2 and use equal amounts LMP). I like the mouth feel of LMP, it doesn't impact taste when left to sit and the skin is a little more firm so it is easier to handle.

←

[rmillman]

Where are you getting the LMP?

I got some from a friend. It is a CP Kelco product and is carried by le-santuaire

http://www.le-sanctuaire.com/

Here is some information on it:

http://www.cybercolloids.net/library/pectin/properties.php

Edited July 13, 2007 by rmillman (log)

[Jonathan Kaplan]

Where are you getting the LMP?

I got some from a friend. It is a CP Kelco product and is carried by le-santuaire

http://www.le-sanctuaire.com/

Here is some information on it:

http://www.cybercolloids.net/library/pectin/properties.php

←

I did a quick search yesterday and came up with this:

http://www.pomonapectin.com/

I wonder if it would work?

(Not that I don't think any excuse to order to le-sanctuaire is a good one -- I love that store!)

jk

Edited July 13, 2007 by Jonathan Kaplan (log)

[tkerby]

I'm wondering if freezing could allow you to place a free floating object within a sphere such as a piece of lemon peel or perhaps another sphere. I think if you froze the first one floating in the second substance you may have a chance of keeping it central. Otherwise you could use a two stage freezing process to stabilise then bulk out the shape. You would then need to ensure the gel layer remained thin

[NutellaBear]

Hi,

I am new on the board but wanted to say that I found a number of the threads very helpful. I had a question and a comment.

I was just getting into the Spherification technique and wanted to know if anyone had used the Gluco product yet and had any tips. I had a meal (session, show, ???) at Alinea early this year and it peaked my interest! I am going to experiment with the reverse spheres and was curious to know if there was any experience with shelf life of the reverse spheres. I heard mention of at least a day, but was wondering if there was any additional recommendations about storage. Does anyone have any tips about proportions for the Gluco?

I also wanted to report that in case any didn't notice there is another product line available for those in the U.S. Paris Gourmet has a lineup called Cuisine-Tech. Small orders can be made through [ www.chocolatecrafter.com ].

Products seem the same but the tool kit from Cuisine-Tech seems a little more useful than the Eines from Texturas. Prices are somewhat less as well. Only thing I could recommend for either toolkit is to throw in a gram scale since they can be obtained pretty cheap. Actually I wish we'd just go metric and be done with it! The Cuisine-Tech toolkit comes in a handy bucket as well. (Uh, Gaston! A bucket for monsieur. There you are, monsieur.)

For smaller quantities of the Texturas, I had a wonderful experience with [ www.koerner-co.com ]. I also checked with [ www.rogersintl.com ] but they would only sell wholesale to businesses. Rogers referred customers to Tienda who had what looked like a 200% mark-up on the Texturas products.

Since I live in Washington I was going to check out minibar in September. Though after reading up about all the techniques I am afraid that it will all have lost its magic for me.

Cheers!

/Tim

[Jonathan Kaplan]

Check out:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=99784&hl=gluco

I've been using 25g/l of gluco, and 5g/l of algin bath. Seems to work well for most things. Let us know how your experiments come out!

And thanks so much for the Koerner link! They look really good -- I've been wanting to try some of the gels...

jk

[NutellaBear]

Check out:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=99784&hl=gluco

I've been using 25g/l of gluco, and 5g/l of algin bath.  Seems to work well for most things.  Let us know how your experiments come out!

And thanks so much for the Koerner link!  They look really good -- I've been wanting to try some of the gels...

jk

←

Thanks. Koerner is in New Orleans and I am happy to help a business there. They sent me three friendly emails about the progress of my order and a tracking number. Can't ask for more than that.

/Tim

[Harry91]

So i just recieved an order from Will Powder of sodium alginate and calcium chloride. I found a recipe online for "Liquid Pea Ravioli", and have to say it worked quite well. I was using a teaspoon measuring device to form the ravioli, and that worked okay. Anyone have any other idea's for dropping the liquid into the CaCl bath?

Also, I currently have 2 mango's, a cantalope, and some blueberrys in my fridge. I'm pretty sure i've read that you can use all of them with alginate and chloride. Any other suggestions?

At an upcoming party i'm having I was thinking of serving the pea ravioli, however i found that the taste (while very pea-ish) is a little strange when served room temp. Is there any way to heat the ravioli (spheres) without breaking the thin membrane?