Sincerest Form

[docsconz]

Nathan, I think this has been hounded to death.

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So no more hounding my man - if what I have to say is not a welcome vantage point - if the people that brought this entire issue to light are allowed to defend themselves but we are not allowed to contradict them - then you will hear not another peep from me.

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I haven't been able to follow this thread for a few days until now. Nathan, I certainly do not mean to imply that you do not have "allowance" to discuss any of your thoughts. My statement was simply to say that the gyst of this specific issue has been continually distorted throughout this thread. I realize that you are saying that this is simply a matter of degree. To a great extent I agree with you and others who feel this way and that there is a lot of overlap and gray zone worthy of he discussion you have undertaken. This particular example is not gray and for anyone to imply otherwise surprise me.

As for the blooming onion situation, it is no less deplorable for plagiarism there or any other situation. It is simply harder to pin down.

[cdh]

The old "art that is simple enough that I could do it myself is not as good as art that is too complicated for me to recreate" mentality.

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That brings to mind that years ago I was enlisted to help create some Ellsworth Kelly inspired artwork to fit in a friend's very modernist apartment. Even though Kelly's art was very simple- fields of color juxtaposed a la Rothko, circles of one color imposed on another, etc... the real thing always looked much better than anything we could hack together. It was an amusing adventure in failing to succeed at something apparently quite simple.

A really well executed simple dish is often as delicious (or more so) than the most complicated. The skill that makes a simple dish delicious is the same one that makes a complicated project interesting to eat. If somebody is lacking that skill, it won't matter what their food looks like... it won't taste right. If it does taste right, then good for them, they've added one more delicious thing to the world.

[inventolux]

My lese majeste theory from a couple of pages back seems to be the principle at work here.

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Could part of it be that the chefs at these restaurants are holding themselves up (or being held up by others, anyway) as "high culture creative artists" an their food as "conceptual art" while the guy who invented the fried onion thing is not?

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I have to go now...

Bill Gates just borrowed a bunch of technology that he now calls "Microsoft Innovation" and

has sent cease and desist letters to anyone trying to copy his ideas and now he's doing

charity work to try and soften his image.

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Good one, but I have disagree with some of it. Perhaps Gates is softening his image. I really dont care about that. My concern is that creativity drives innovation and innovation drives big business. Big business is whats at stake here. Not some guy around the globe using my veal sweetbreads with goat cheese or my donut soup.

I think when certain ideas in the food world become known as public domain that were highly creative in the conceptive stages, they become the property of someone or something else. Big business takes over and leaves the working class citizen helpless. Its retarded in my opinion to send out cease and desist letters to everyone. In my opinion thats legalized communism. Currently those are the laws we live by and I dont agree with all of them. Its a capitalist society, how does one achieve anything? Provide a solution and problem solve. Perhaps todays solution may be wrong but chances and risk are part of the game. I hate quotes but "he who risks nothing risks everything." I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this one. Or is it your opinion that we should just continue to allow the problem to fester.

Assisting those in need is something I have been working on even before Moto opened and even before I arrived in Chicago as being on the other side of the coin as it is a large part of my history. Find me 100,000 chefs willing to crank out food aid 24/7 365 days a year then I will hand over my IP to you.

And also, I think Adria's influence is everywhere in the avant garde/postmodern world. Its the up and comers I spend more of my time supporting. I think he would he would agree with me as he has shown great support for my philosophy in gastronomy for which I am very grateful. Paying hommage yes, working as a team on a global scale, a must. Evolution....... inevitable.

[sizzleteeth]

And also, I think Adria's influence is everywhere in the avant garde/postmodern world. Its the up and comers I spend more of my time supporting. I think he would he would agree with me as he has shown great support for my philosophy in gastronomy for which I am very grateful. Paying hommage yes, working as a team on a global scale, a must. Evolution....... inevitable.

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That's a long way away from:

"However, he'd rather his staff not try to learn from what has already been documented by other chefs. When asked whether his style, full of tricks and puns, edible menus and liquid salads in pipettes, is at all influenced by the legendary Ferran and Alberto Adria of Spain's El Bulli restaurant, or by their cookbooks, Cantu responds, "Moto is a self-sustaining think tank. Our ideas stem from a few basic rules. One: don't read cookbooks, [as] it influences your style and your style will no longer be yours. Two: creating cannot involve copying."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JA..._n13665880/pg_3

I'm glad to see you've had a change of heart.

Find me 100,000 chefs willing to crank out food aid 24/7 365 days a year then I will hand over my IP to you.

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I think there are at least that many already, if you consider them chefs, they work in soup kitchens and homeless shelters, transport

food across oceans and live in poverty amongst the people in need to help the sick and the hungry. But 100,000 more would certainly be helpful as would elimination of things that keep this cycle rolling - like the caste system etc etc.

I don't doubt your sincerity and in fact I'm glad you don't throw around your charitable endeavors to make yourself look good, but I'm still highly skeptical that walking around in Rajasthan with pictures of chapatis on sheets of paper with the words, "Eat this, it'll make you feel better", is going to do much good. But whatever you are doing... you are most likely doing more than most, myself included - so that counts for something.

Big business is whats at stake here. Not some guy around the globe using my veal sweetbreads with goat cheese or my donut soup.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this one. Or is it your opinion that we should just continue to allow the problem to fester.

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I'm not a chef. As far as I can remember I've never charged for a meal in my life - but that doesn't make me better than you - as I sell my soul every day for the almighty dollar. Your agenda would be vastly different than mine because to me, you ARE big business, maybe not as big as Microsoft but certainly much bigger than a $5 hotdog stand or the Thai joint down the street - regardless of whether you actually make more profit or not.

The way you come off is like me, as a regular person out here, is like me calling upon my people (whom cuisine really belongs to) to rise up and take back what is theirs, to start thinking like you, to file every $80 patent for anything they can write a description of and draw a picture for before the "high cuisine" chefs take it. It's almost like me calling chef Robin, chef Robin Hood (stealing from the gastronomically rich and giving to the gastronomically poor... plus tax and tip of course) and calling on everyone reading this thread to take and publish as many ideas as they can so they don't fall into your hands.

Many of your philosophies seem contradictory and diametrically opposed to the desired outcome.

But that is just my opinion - from my singular point of view.

[butterscotch]

in the same way people were saying if they went to interlude and found out so much of the menu was copied (uncredited) they'd think it's uncool... well, i sorta feel the same way about trying to copy the painting. especially since the painting is there to "fit in" with the apartment.

that's about as "uncool" as it gets.

but the story is damned amusing.

The old "art that is simple enough that I could do it myself is not as good as art that is too complicated for me to recreate" mentality.

←

That brings to mind that years ago I was enlisted to help create some Ellsworth Kelly inspired artwork to fit in a friend's very modernist apartment. Even though Kelly's art was very simple- fields of color juxtaposed a la Rothko, circles of one color imposed on another, etc... the real thing always looked much better than anything we could hack together. It was an amusing adventure in failing to succeed at something apparently quite simple.

A really well executed simple dish is often as delicious (or more so) than the most complicated. The skill that makes a simple dish delicious is the same one that makes a complicated project interesting to eat. If somebody is lacking that skill, it won't matter what their food looks like... it won't taste right. If it does taste right, then good for them, they've added one more delicious thing to the world.

←

[inventolux]

And also, I think Adria's influence is everywhere in the avant garde/postmodern world. Its the up and comers I spend more of my time supporting. I think he would he would agree with me as he has shown great support for my philosophy in gastronomy for which I am very grateful. Paying hommage yes, working as a team on a global scale, a must. Evolution....... inevitable.

←

That's a long way away from:

"However, he'd rather his staff not try to learn from what has already been documented by other chefs. When asked whether his style, full of tricks and puns, edible menus and liquid salads in pipettes, is at all influenced by the legendary Ferran and Alberto Adria of Spain's El Bulli restaurant, or by their cookbooks, Cantu responds, "Moto is a self-sustaining think tank. Our ideas stem from a few basic rules. One: don't read cookbooks, [as] it influences your style and your style will no longer be yours. Two: creating cannot involve copying."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JA..._n13665880/pg_3

I discourage my team from reading cookbooks as it does influence style. I encourage inspiration utilizing other technology from other industries. Basically I believe we can cook with anything that plugs into a wall. How am I to evolve by following other models? Nobody is born without influence and we are no exception therefore we copy just like everyone else. To be creative is a goal and a philosophy. We may never achieve it but then again who today really has?

I'm glad to see you've had a change of heart.

We have evolved and moved on, thats all.Respect for Adria has and will always be there.

Find me 100,000 chefs willing to crank out food aid 24/7 365 days a year then I will hand over my IP to you.

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I think there are at least that many already, if you consider them chefs, they work in soup kitchens and homeless shelters, transport

food across oceans and live in poverty amongst the people in need to help the sick and the hungry. But 100,000 more would certainly be helpful as would elimination of things that keep this cycle rolling - like the caste system etc etc.

Obviously the current system isnt working.

I don't doubt your sincerity and in fact I'm glad you don't throw around your charitable endeavors to make yourself look good, but I'm still highly skeptical that walking around in Rajasthan with pictures of chapatis on sheets of paper with the words, "Eat this, it'll make you feel better", is going to do much good. But whatever you are doing... you are most likely doing more than most, myself included - so that counts for something.

Only if we actually do something about it.

Big business is whats at stake here. Not some guy around the globe using my veal sweetbreads with goat cheese or my donut soup.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this one. Or is it your opinion that we should just continue to allow the problem to fester.

←

I'm not a chef. As far as I can remember I've never charged for a meal in my life - but that doesn't make me better than you - as I sell my soul every day for the almighty dollar. Your agenda would be vastly different than mine because to me, you ARE big business, maybe not as big as Microsoft but certainly much bigger than a $5 hotdog stand or the Thai joint down the street - regardless of whether you actually make more profit or not.

It takes money for R&D. 5 bucks for a hot dog wont do it.

The way you come off is like me, as a regular person out here, is like me calling upon my people (whom cuisine really belongs to) to rise up and take back what is theirs, to start thinking like you, to file every $80 patent for anything they can write a description of and draw a picture for before the "high cuisine" chefs take it. It's almost like me calling chef Robin, chef Robin Hood (stealing from the gastronomically rich and giving to the gastronomically poor... plus tax and tip of course) and calling on everyone reading this thread to take and publish as many ideas as they can so they don't fall into your hands.

My goal is not to write an 80 dollar patent for every ridiculous and useless idea, believe me, I am the first to point them out in my restaurant which are usually my own. Just the ones that have market potential and can offer massive impact.

Many of your philosophies seem contradictory and diametrically opposed to the desired outcome.

We dont really know that. Sure hardships we may endure and mistakes will be made but its the opportunity for discovery that made the world round and enables you and I to collaborate over this digital world.

But that is just my opinion - from my singular point of view.

Cheers, now lets have a beer at the HopLeaf.

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Edited March 27, 2006 by inventolux (log)

[sizzleteeth]

I discourage my team from reading cookbooks as it does influence style. I encourage inspiration utilizing other technology from other industries. Basically I believe we can cook with anything that plugs into a wall. How am I to evolve by following other models? Nobody is born without influence and we are no exception therefore we copy just like everyone else. To be creative is a goal and a philosophy. We may never achieve it but then again who today really has?

We have evolved and moved on, thats all.Respect for Adria has and will always be there.

Cheers, now lets have a beer at the HopLeaf.

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Thank you Mr. Cantu - perhaps on my birthday instead.

[chankonabe]

Well, I think the problem here is that Alinea, WD-50, Fat Duck and the like aren't really restaurants and shouldn't be classified as such. I mean, they serve food but a restaurant is somewhere you go when you're hungry not looking for a challenge. El Bulli gets voted best restaurant in the world and it kind of tweaks me.

The dishes served there are such direct representation of their varying visions and are pretty, I dont know, specific. They're trying to make history, not dinner (I stole that). Which is why the copying in this case is such an issue. It's pretty remarkable, I feel like it must have been harder to redo them so exactly. Every kitchen kind of develops its own personality and even simple dishes seem to work themselves out differently, let alone ones as complex as these. To actually go out and buy a bunch of those votive candle holder things and stuff meat into all the holes...that took work.

All young cooks work for in the beginning is discipline, not flavor combinations, stacking textures and blah blah blah. How many free thinking cooks last long on the line? A first job with any kind of creative responsibility will invariably yield a lot of things that cook had done before. Its a completely different set of muscles that have to be exercized before any kind of culinary personality is brought out. Cooking is a trade, pure and simple. It would be no different if you were a cabinetmaker, the first year after you strike out on your own I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be doing a whole lot of innovating. I still make mashed potatoes like Charlie Palmer, do I have to change them? If those mashed potatoes are with Truffle Roasted Chicken and glazed root veg and I love that freaking dish and am I going to change it ever? not on your life, it's perfect. I didn't work for him for the money. Am I being a copycat or true to my craft?

The problem here arises that that the chicken breast isnt meat glued into a perfect sphere, the mashed potatoes arent smoked, and the root vegetables aren't made out of gelatin. Both could be representations of two dishes prepared by two different chefs perfectly representing their personalities. But one can be copied, and the other is off limits. One comes from a restaurant and the other from a theater.

Cooks work at restaurants and for chefs they admire because they want to take on certain aspects, they want to emulate to a degree the people they work for and with and I dont see anything wrong with that. I don't know much about Chef Robin and if he publicly took credit for the creation of these dishes than that's just plain wrong. (As a side note: my biggest kitchen peeve is people who say they are "self taught" because they didn't go to school) But I'd be willing to bet that after he did other peoples dishes for a while and molecular gastronomy is the direction he wants to go in then the dishes would begin to be his own. Perhaps he just became a chef too early and could have used another year or two as a sous chef when all you're supposed to do is copy?

Edited March 27, 2006 by chankonabe (log)

[Julian Teoh]

The Sydney Morning Herald has come out with a short about this topic and notes deco 75's post in the "Interlude food similarities" thread about Mark Best's chaud-froid egg and caramelised stuffed tomato with twelve flavours.

Best's response: "'I've never claimed it as my own in any way,' Best (says), maintaining the dish has evolved, including the addition of star anise ice-cream and 'turning it the other way.'"

[Sneakeater]

Its retarded in my opinion to send out cease and desist letters to everyone. In my opinion thats legalized communism.

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This may be off-topic, but isn't the point that it's OPPOSITE of communism?

[Sneakeater]

I mean, they serve food but a restaurant is somewhere you go when you're hungry not looking for a challenge.

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I'm just wondering where THIS particular definition came from.

(I guess Stan Brakhage doesn't make movies, either.)

[joesan]

I mean, they serve food but a restaurant is somewhere you go when you're hungry not looking for a challenge.

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I'm just wondering where THIS particular definition came from.

(I guess Stan Brakhage doesn't make movies, either.)

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Yes I think that is pretty wide of the mark too. I've eaten at the Fat Duck and I can assure that not only is it a restaurant but it's a damn fine one too. And no you do not go home in the least hungry, in fact you go home with a satisfied smile and a full belly...

Edited March 27, 2006 by joesan (log)

[chankonabe]

it comes from nori caramel, olive cloufoutis, hijiki seaweed puree, leather truffles smoked truffles tomato truffles tobacco truffles, white chocolate with caviar, edible menus, doughnut soup, bacon suspended from a hook, hot ice cream, anchovies foie terrine, 8 hour eggs, sea water sorbet sardine on toast sorbet...

The comment may have been a little dramatic, but is part of a larger point.

Edited March 27, 2006 by chankonabe (log)

[Sneakeater]

You don't have to like that stuff. But you're not gonna get very far trying to impose your preferences on others.

[chankonabe]

Not trying to impose anything. and I have no problem with and quite enjoy dining in these experimantal...establishments (ha!). All I'm saying is that these houses are in a class unto themselves and are difficult to categorize with other restaurants. I had to make that point because of the copy cat issue, I think its important. I don't mean to show any preferences at all, just the difference.

"I love being objected to. It worries me, but I love being objected to."

-Stan Brakhage

Edited March 27, 2006 by chankonabe (log)

[JWest]

Im just wondering what everyone thinks about these questions...

What if someone did this 30 years (maybe much longer than that) from now.... would it generally then be considered "Classical Achatz"? like "Classical Escoffier" with Chicken French?

I've seen a restaurant place items on menus such as "T.K.'s Lobster Mac N Cheese".. and it became a popular dish on the menu.

So, how different would it have been if he had something like that, crediting the Chefs?

Personally I would think that would be rather strange having 14 items on your menu saying that that dish was from a different chef. Although, I would feel it to be more accepting to the public if it was done that way.

Im not really sure where I'm going with this but I just wanted to throw out some thoughts and see what everyone else felt about them.

[akwa]

what a blessing to have this conversation

finally to make some progress on ip and move out of the stone age

[akwa]

what a blessing to have this conversation

finally to make some progress on ip and move out of the stone age

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we have started using doc's for techniques

for example

mango 17480 (cat) to refer to spherification of mango in the style of el bulli

homage to is always effective

but importantly communication of inspiration is helpful

[akwa]

i support pedros analysis

el bulli

who without doubt is the most imitated restaurant in recent history

never once complained but laughed about being copied

they also publish yearly now to make sure that the credit cannot be possibly attributed to anyone else

now that they compete in a more globalized economy

this is the correct pattern for scientific research

the next step is protection in the style of the fine aural and visual arts

wg

[inventolux]

Its retarded in my opinion to send out cease and desist letters to everyone. In my opinion thats legalized communism.

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This may be off-topic, but isn't the point that it's OPPOSITE of communism?

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This may be off topic but sometimes I can be a dweeb.

[cdh]

this is the correct pattern for scientific research

the next step is protection in the style of the fine aural and visual arts

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Do you mean to say that you think that culinary dishes (and all derivatives therefrom) should be the property of their creator and his heirs for his lifetime plus 70 years? Or (more likely) of the company that employed the creator, for 95 years? That is the regime under which fine aural and visual arts are protected today. It's quite crazy, but it is what we've voted for ourselves through our fine elected representatives, so we have to live with it.

Edited March 29, 2006 by cdh (log)

[akwa]

this is the correct pattern for scientific research

the next step is protection in the style of the fine aural and visual arts

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Do you mean to say that you think that culinary dishes (and all derivatives therefrom) should be the property of their creator and his heirs for his lifetime plus 70 years? Or (more likely) of the company that employed the creator, for 95 years? That is the regime under which fine aural and visual arts are protected today. It's quite crazy, but it is what we've voted for ourselves through our fine elected representatives, so we have to live with it.

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there is nothing crazy about protecting the creative engines of any industry

[butterscotch]

why is it any crazier to protect an artwork than it is to protect "nonfiction"?

work is work, original is original.

do you think that anything creative is fair game to be immediately appropriated, even in a commercial setting?

i'm not suggesting law enforcement here, just calling a hack a hack is enough for me.

this is the correct pattern for scientific research

the next step is protection in the style of the fine aural and visual arts

←

Do you mean to say that you think that culinary dishes (and all derivatives therefrom) should be the property of their creator and his heirs for his lifetime plus 70 years? Or (more likely) of the company that employed the creator, for 95 years? That is the regime under which fine aural and visual arts are protected today. It's quite crazy, but it is what we've voted for ourselves through our fine elected representatives, so we have to live with it.

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[cdh]

protecting or stifling? and allowing the bony grasp of a corpse dead 70 years to exercise control from the grave?

Some protection for the creative is certainly warranted, but what we've got is nuts if you're on the outside looking in. If you've built business models based on what we've got, it might look really good to you.

[cdh]

why is it any crazier to protect an artwork than it is to protect "nonfiction"?

work is work, original is original.

do you think that anything creative is fair game to be immediately appropriated, even in a commercial setting?

i'm not suggesting law enforcement here, just calling a hack a hack is enough for me. 

Ummm... you're attributing to me a position I have never taken.. where does this idea that nonfiction is special come from?