Sincerest Form

[Chef Fowke]

I ask this as a non-lawyer, and out of ignorance of the laws of the land...

Isn't the matter at hand purely hypothetical and only based in the present? Meaning...The wheel has been in existence for 1000's of years, and no one can lay claim to a copy write.

In 1902 Escoffier wrote Le Guide Culinaire, the start of standardized modern cooking. His intent was to have all cooks and Chefs form a nomenclature. With that nomenclature comes a duplication of recipes passed down from Chef to apprentice, and from Chef to competing Chef.

My thought here is, recipes and techniques have been in existence for so long, and without copy write protection ~ is that not, in itself, a case in law?

The point at hand is about ethics, rather then law?

[MiFi]

"A 160.00 tasting menu can allow me more creativity than a 5 dollar hot dog stand."

If this an accurate statement, you're completely full of yourself and have no creativity.

[inventolux]

"A 160.00 tasting menu can allow me more creativity than a 5 dollar hot dog stand."

If this an accurate statement, you're completely full of yourself and have no creativity.

←

And you have never run a tasting menu restaurant and probably arent sitting on multiple PCT filings that have intergalactic impact.

R&D takes money, prototyping takes money, find me a stereolithography company or a 3D printing prototyper that works for free and I then I will agree with you.

Or better yet find me a 5 dollar hot dog stand that is cranking out food ideas that are forward thinking.

The truth is I came up with most of my IP when I was out of work and broke. It took a business and money to get them into the market place. An idea does not make a damn bit of difference without action. That takes resources.

Edited April 7, 2006 by inventolux (log)

[sizzleteeth]

Find me a stereolithography company or a 3D printing prototyper that works for free and I then I will agree with you.

Or better yet find me a 5 dollar hot dog stand that is cranking out food ideas that are forward thinking.

←

Kitware, developers of a free, opensource visualization toolkit used for compressing .STL files for Stereolithography Applications.

Hot Doug's... a creative, forward thinking (in the context of hot dogs), successful - "$5 hot dog stand".

Edited April 7, 2006 by sizzleteeth (log)

[RyuShihan]

More talking out loud than knowing the answer, but couldn't this also hurt the culinary industry to forward thinking? Let me explain my thought, lets take examples like freeze dried food, flash frozen foods and what’s that stuff used to make proteins glue together.

Weren't all these items actually made for a different purpose but are now being used by culinarians, if they were patented for a process, which if certain laws were in place they could be, that would stop allot of chefs from being allowed to use such new technology.

My fear would be that if laws were put in place, in the end big companies with already fat wallets would hire the best and brightest chefs just to try and invent stuff for the mass culinary market and then it would just cost more money to invent new dishes because they would monopolies over something for 10 years or so.

I know it’s easy to think the wheel is being re-invented but in truth don't you think chefs in the past thought the same thing about their food? “Wow look at this new way of making a cake, or how I cook my Ribs." By the public being allowed to see, touch, taste and copy, that’s how those ideas moved forward to the next generation, to once again re-invent the wheel.

Now, don't get me wrong I do feel the pains of inventing something only to have an idea stolen, hell look at Microsoft but it was those patent laws that gave Mr. Gates the ability to steal ideas and nothing could be done about it. Now how many years latter and Microsoft still has a strong control over Operating systems as a whole.

Do we really want a culinary society that ends up where one company controls the new ideas and just buys out all new small ideas, because that’s what laws do to creativity.

Just my humble opinion

(of course if a middle ground of laws were worked out that seamed fair and reasonable that would both help creativity and safeguard the thinking man I would be all for it. but current laws don't seam reasonable)

[tammylc]

Le Dog is pretty forward thinking for a hot dog stand.

(And damn, their lobster bisque is good.)

[Swisskaese]

You could say the same thing about painting, sculpture, opera, theater and film. Does it piss you off that these art forms receive intellectual property protection?

←

Steven, how do you copyright popcorn dust? Is popcorn dust considered a new process? How different is it from me grating or powdering parmesan in my magimix and putting it on a plate?

Olive gelee. Is the process different from making tomato aspic or jellied calf's foot?

How do you copyright smoked shrimp? Smoking has been done for thousands of years. Okay, so they make pasta out of it. I am sure it is a very interesting dish, but I saw someone make pasta out of fish and tofu the other day on some cooking show.

How do you copyright the plating of food? I think we have discussed this topic in another thread before. The way a dish is plated is just as permanent as someone's speech or gesture and can't be copyrighted as such.

Intellectual property protection is in most cases for 70 years, with the exception of Mickey Mouse.

I applaud creative chefs. I love good food and sometimes the food is so amazing it gives me an orgasm, but did they invent something that changed the world and therefore should be copyrighted for 70 years? It would have to be some spectacular process, not plating or presentation that would convince me that it warrants copyright protection.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Swisskaese (log)

[kelautz]

". . . accept the fact that certain successful dishes (like, say, Nobu's miso black cod) soon end up on virtually every comparable menu?"

Nobu, that crafty devil, is laughing all the way to the bank on the strength of an old housewives and frugal fishmongers well-known trick. Fish that didn't sell was pickled in miso for use in the next day or two. This is an old and common practice in Japan. Everything is "miso-zuke"ed given half a chance.

Nobu no more invented this dish than he has flown to the moon. It was just new to us.

(Sorry if this has already been mentioned. I'm just starting to slog my way through this thread.)

Kathy

[inventolux]

Find me a stereolithography company or a 3D printing prototyper that works for free and I then I will agree with you.

Or better yet find me a 5 dollar hot dog stand that is cranking out food ideas that are forward thinking.

←

Kitware, developers of a free, opensource visualization toolkit used for compressing .STL files for Stereolithography Applications.

THIS DOES NOT PRODUCE PROTOTYPES IT JUST PROVIDES SOFTWARE

Hot Doug's... a creative, forward thinking (in the context of hot dogs), successful - "$5 hot dog stand".

←

I AGREE, HD'S IS FORWARD THINKING BUT YOU WONT SEE DOUG BUSTING OUT A METHYLCELLULOSE CREAM WITH A LIQUID CENTER CORN DOG ON HIS NEXT SPECIALS MENU BECAUSE IT COSTS TOO MUCH. LETS GET REAL HERE PEOPLE AND JUST SEE THE SITUATION AT FACE VALUE.

[inventolux]

More talking out loud than knowing the answer, but couldn't this also hurt the culinary industry to forward thinking?  Let me explain my thought, lets take examples like freeze dried food, flash frozen foods and what’s that stuff used to make proteins glue together.

Weren't all these items actually made for a different purpose but are now being used by culinarians, if they were patented for a process, which if certain laws were in place they could be, that would stop allot of chefs from being allowed to use such new technology.

My fear would be that if laws were put in place, in the end big companies with already fat wallets would hire the best and brightest chefs just to try and invent stuff for the mass culinary market and then it would just cost more money to invent new dishes because they would monopolies over something for 10 years or so.

I know it’s easy to think the wheel is being re-invented but in truth don't you think chefs in the past thought the same thing about their food?  “Wow look at this new way of making a cake, or how I cook my Ribs."  By the public being allowed to see, touch, taste and copy, that’s how those ideas moved forward to the next generation, to once again re-invent the wheel.

Now, don't get me wrong I do feel the pains of inventing something only to have an idea stolen, hell look at Microsoft but it was those patent laws that gave Mr. Gates the ability to steal ideas and nothing could be done about it.  Now how many years latter and Microsoft still has a strong control over Operating systems as a whole.

Do we really want a culinary society that ends up where one company controls the new ideas and just buys out all new small ideas, because that’s what laws do to creativity.

Just my humble opinion

(of course if a middle ground of laws were worked out that seamed fair and reasonable that would both help creativity and safeguard the thinking man I would be all for it.  but current laws don't seam reasonable)

←

Most of everyones fears in this thread reguarding patenting things like freeze dried foods are simply not patentable. Its been in the public domain for too long. As CDH who is one of the only experts here on patent law has stated, patents are rare and hard to get. Of course there are bad examples of patent abuse. You will wind up paying more this year for increases in costs for beef than you will for licencing fees on food patents. You cant just go out there and start patenting the saute technique. Its far more complex and foolproof than that.

The thought of holding the entire food world ransom for every technique is complete obsurdity.

Edited April 8, 2006 by inventolux (log)

[Swisskaese]

More talking out loud than knowing the answer, but couldn't this also hurt the culinary industry to forward thinking?  Let me explain my thought, lets take examples like freeze dried food, flash frozen foods and what’s that stuff used to make proteins glue together.

Weren't all these items actually made for a different purpose but are now being used by culinarians, if they were patented for a process, which if certain laws were in place they could be, that would stop allot of chefs from being allowed to use such new technology.

My fear would be that if laws were put in place, in the end big companies with already fat wallets would hire the best and brightest chefs just to try and invent stuff for the mass culinary market and then it would just cost more money to invent new dishes because they would monopolies over something for 10 years or so.

I know it’s easy to think the wheel is being re-invented but in truth don't you think chefs in the past thought the same thing about their food?  “Wow look at this new way of making a cake, or how I cook my Ribs."  By the public being allowed to see, touch, taste and copy, that’s how those ideas moved forward to the next generation, to once again re-invent the wheel.

Now, don't get me wrong I do feel the pains of inventing something only to have an idea stolen, hell look at Microsoft but it was those patent laws that gave Mr. Gates the ability to steal ideas and nothing could be done about it.  Now how many years latter and Microsoft still has a strong control over Operating systems as a whole.

Do we really want a culinary society that ends up where one company controls the new ideas and just buys out all new small ideas, because that’s what laws do to creativity.

Just my humble opinion

(of course if a middle ground of laws were worked out that seamed fair and reasonable that would both help creativity and safeguard the thinking man I would be all for it.  but current laws don't seam reasonable)

←

Most of everyones fears in this thread reguarding patenting things like freeze dried foods are simply not patentable. Its been in the public domain for too long. As CDH who is one of the only experts here on patent law has stated, patents are rare and hard to get. Of course there are bad examples of patent abuse. You will wind up paying more this year for increases in costs for beef than you will for licencing fees on food patents. You cant just go out there and start patenting the saute technique. Its far more complex and foolproof than that.

The thought of holding the entire food world ransom for every technique is complete obsurdity.

←

I really don't know what your point is anymore. Are you just asking for another restaurant that copies your food to put your name on the menu as the creator of the dish and plating or do you want them to pay you x dollars to make your dish? Or do you really want the Nobel Prize for Cooking? Which is it? Frankly, I don't care who makes the dish as long as it tastes good. I am not going to order a dish because so-and-so created it. I am going to order the dish because the combination of ingredients appeals to me.

Some people are not impressed with floating food and paper sushi. Personally, I don't like my food to foam at the mouth and I can't stand jelly anything.

If you need to have your ego stroked even more than it gets stroked by your patrons and food critics then write a cookbook or better yet, come to my world and get a job in hi-tech or at an incubator and invent to your hearts content. Maybe you will invent a new space capsule instead of a CO2 capsule.

There are millions of people that invent new things and most of these people we have never heard of. I work with someone who has 20 patents in his name, does he ask me to stroke his ego everyday, no. He comes into work just like everyone else and comes up with some interesting variant and goes home to his family every night content that he did a good job. Well, maybe not every night.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Swisskaese (log)

[sizzleteeth]

THIS DOES NOT PRODUCE PROTOTYPES IT JUST PROVIDES SOFTWARE

←

Damn.. lost on a technicality based on a deeper level of scrutiny.

YOU WONT SEE DOUG BUSTING OUT A METHYLCELLULOSE CREAM WITH A LIQUID CENTER CORN DOG ON HIS NEXT SPECIALS MENU BECAUSE IT COSTS TOO MUCH.

←

First of all - I wouldn't say that because he might just do it.

Second - please explain to me how a corn dog puree (either all in one or each component seperately) and a methylcellulose cream are so expensive? As the technique for encasing would take little more than time and the ingredients certainly wouldn't cost much - but I suppose if you're talking about serving hundreds of them a day you might be right.

As for food stereolithography, that's a pretty old idea - I'm pretty sure I read an article on it in 2002 and I think people have been working on it since SLA and rapid prototyping machines came in to being some years ago with some success in all different contexts. I'm too lazy to post all the links so just do a search on food stereolithography.

People are working on having rapid prototyping reproduce organic materials, human tissue and/or are using it to design non-food prototypes of food before they make the food.

Allright I'll post a few, to cover a couple of different contexts:

David Ryan Design in Seattle recently prototyped chocolates for Starbucks (but not chocolate prototypes) using SLA to hammer out the manufacturing process:

http://www.moldmakingtechnology.com/articles/050109.html

or an even better and actually edible example:

Saul Griffith at MIT designed a 3d food printer out of Lego robotics and a heater, with software made for kids that prints 3d objects in things like chocolate and bees wax, so kids can design and build they're own toys and then eat them. (He also invented a portable molding mechanism to cheaply make lenses for eyeglasses in about 10 minutes with 40 cents worth of material for "reducing the cost of prescription eyewear widely available in developing nations" - among other nano-3d production inventions etc etc etc.)

His company Squid Labs runs Low Cost Eyeware and Squid Labs has gotten something like 14 million dollars in grants to further their projects. (So I guess the system works for someone.)

Now that is what I call "social enterprise".

Though back to SLA - I know I read some years ago about people developing types of corn starch that the lasers in 3D printers can fuse in layers like the non-food material they use now - I just can't remember where so I have to let that one go, I believe they even made reference to it as a "Star Trek Food Replicator" and though I can still find references with that phrase to projects producing work with regards to SLA and rapid prototyping machines reproducing molecules that might one day be able to reproduce food and of people working on ways to "fool our taste buds" into thinking we're eating something we're not in conjunction with that - I can't find that particular reference.

Anyway, all very interesting - but again, not your idea, nor your invention.

Though as you say - it can be expanded upon.

Which you are most certainly welcome to do.

Edited April 8, 2006 by sizzleteeth (log)

[inventolux]

More talking out loud than knowing the answer, but couldn't this also hurt the culinary industry to forward thinking?  Let me explain my thought, lets take examples like freeze dried food, flash frozen foods and what’s that stuff used to make proteins glue together.

Weren't all these items actually made for a different purpose but are now being used by culinarians, if they were patented for a process, which if certain laws were in place they could be, that would stop allot of chefs from being allowed to use such new technology.

My fear would be that if laws were put in place, in the end big companies with already fat wallets would hire the best and brightest chefs just to try and invent stuff for the mass culinary market and then it would just cost more money to invent new dishes because they would monopolies over something for 10 years or so.

I know it’s easy to think the wheel is being re-invented but in truth don't you think chefs in the past thought the same thing about their food?  “Wow look at this new way of making a cake, or how I cook my Ribs."  By the public being allowed to see, touch, taste and copy, that’s how those ideas moved forward to the next generation, to once again re-invent the wheel.

Now, don't get me wrong I do feel the pains of inventing something only to have an idea stolen, hell look at Microsoft but it was those patent laws that gave Mr. Gates the ability to steal ideas and nothing could be done about it.  Now how many years latter and Microsoft still has a strong control over Operating systems as a whole.

Do we really want a culinary society that ends up where one company controls the new ideas and just buys out all new small ideas, because that’s what laws do to creativity.

Just my humble opinion

(of course if a middle ground of laws were worked out that seamed fair and reasonable that would both help creativity and safeguard the thinking man I would be all for it.  but current laws don't seam reasonable)

←

Most of everyones fears in this thread reguarding patenting things like freeze dried foods are simply not patentable. Its been in the public domain for too long. As CDH who is one of the only experts here on patent law has stated, patents are rare and hard to get. Of course there are bad examples of patent abuse. You will wind up paying more this year for increases in costs for beef than you will for licencing fees on food patents. You cant just go out there and start patenting the saute technique. Its far more complex and foolproof than that.

The thought of holding the entire food world ransom for every technique is complete obsurdity.

←

I really don't know what your point is anymore. Are you just asking for another restaurant that copies your food to put your name on the menu as the creator of the dish and plating or do you want them to pay you x dollars to make your dish? Or do you really want the Nobel Prize for Cooking? Which is it? Frankly, I don't care who makes the dish as long as it tastes good. I am not going to order a dish because so-and-so created it. I am going to order the dish because the combination of ingredients appeals to me.

Some people are not impressed with floating food and paper sushi. Personally, I don't like my food to foam at the mouth and I can't stand jelly anything.

If you need to have your ego stroked even more than it gets stroked by your patrons and food critics then write a cookbook or better yet, come to my world and get a job in hi-tech or at an incubator and invent to your hearts content. Maybe you will invent a new space capsule instead of a CO2 capsule.

There are millions of people that invent new things and most of these people we have never heard of. I work with someone who has 20 patents in his name, does he ask me to stroke his ego everyday, no. He comes into work just like everyone else and comes up with some interesting variant and goes home to his family every night content that he did a good job. Well, maybe not every night.

←

MY POINT IS NOT BE RECOGNIZED FOR PAPER SUSHI, OR TO HAVE MY NAME ON EVERY MENU ON PLANET EARTH. THIS IS NOT ABOUT OWNING A DISH EITHER. OR EVEN RECIEVING A NOBEL PRIZE FOR ANYTHING. MY POINT IS PROTECTION FOR CREATIVE CHEFS AGAINST LARGER ENTITIES THAT STEAL THEIR IDEAS EVERY DAY.

I DONT CARE IF PEOPLE ARENT IMPRESSED WITH FLOATING FOOD OR PAPER SUSHI. (AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE) BIG COMPANIES ARE, AND ITS THOSE BIG COMPANIES I AM INTERESTED IN. ALSO, ITS NOT JUST PAPER SUSHI, IT HAS APPLICATIONS THAT RUN THE GAMET FROM NATIONAL SECURITY TO SPACE TRAVEL TO THE PROMOTIONS INDUSTRY. THAT DESERVES TO BE PROTECTED AGAINST THE LARGE ENTITIES THAT HAVE TRACK RECORDS OF PATENT INFRINGEMENT. ITS ABOUT THINKING BIG AND GETTING OTHER CHEFS TO SEE THEIR IDEAS FOR THEIR POTENTIAL. LARGE THINK TANKS OUTSIDE THE RESTAURANT WORLD DO AND SO SHOULD WE.

I DONT BELIEVE IN COOKBOOKS. MY WIFE WORKS WITH ONE OF LARGEST COOKBOOK PUBLISHERS (WILEY) IN THE WORLD. I HAVE TURNED DOWN MANY OFFERS FOR COOKBOOKS FROM NUMEROUS PUBLISHERS. I DO WHAT SERVES THE INTERESTS OF PUSHING THE ENVELOPE OF GASTRONOMY. EVEN IF THERE WERE NO PRESS AROUND IT, I WOULD STILL DO IT BECAUSE THATS MY PASSION.

I DONT TELL THE MEDIA WHAT TO WRITE, IF THEY WANT TO WRITE ABOUT EDIBLE MENUS, THEN FINE, ITS NOT MY DECISION AND I WONT SAY NO.

IF YOU THINK MY RESTAURANT CAN BE ENCOMPASSED WITH JUST EDIBLE PAPER AND CO2 CANNISTERS THEN YOU ARE MISINFORMAED AND HAVE PROBABLY NEVER DINED THERE.

PREJUDGEMENT AND SMALL AMOUNTS OF INFORMATION ARE ALWAYS DANGEROUS.

IM NOT ASKING FOR EGO RECOGNITION. MY FOCUS HERE IS REFORM FOR THE HARD WORKERS THAT MAKE UP THIS BUSINESS.

SCRUTINIZING IS EASY. CREATING AND IMPLEMENTING SOLUTIONS IS HARDER.

Edited April 8, 2006 by inventolux (log)

[Swisskaese]

I sorry, but I still don't understand what you want. Maybe because you were yelling at me in the reply. Are you talking about food here or are you talking about some technology you have invented?

My understanding is that this topic refers to getting credit where credit is due when another restaurant steals your recipe and plating technique and you are talking about Homeland Security and NASA stealing your food ideas?

I am going to have to ask my friends in the Mossad if they are interested in El Bulli's menu and/or utensils and serving dishes for national security.

I don't see anything wrong with creating a restaurant incubator. It would help people without restaurant experience gain knowledge from experienced restauranteurs. But, what is the difference between an incubator and someone doing a stage in a restaurant?

As for eating in your restaurant? I live in Israel. I have never been to Chicago, but I did look at your website. I have read quite a bit about El Bulli, WD-50 and other restaurants such as these and it is not my cup of tea. I have been to plenty of top restaurants around the world that serve tasting menus and have enjoyed them. I know they require a lot of work and I do know something about the restaurant business. My uncle owned and was head chef of a German restaurant in my hometown. The restaurant is still in business under different owners, but he had the restaurant for 40 years. He is now 94 and I have the utmost respect for him.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Swisskaese (log)

[nathanm]

At the risk of offending everybody, can I suggest that we all calm down a bit?

This debate seems to be lurching between extremes, none of which are reasonable.

Will giant companies gobble up the food industry? Well, if you haven't noticed they already have! Industrial food companies like Nabisco, Nestle, Coca Cola, Mars, Hormel and many others are huge. They do dominate certain classes of pre-prepared food. That is nothing new, and nothing to be afraid of.

Will patents ruin cuisine? Patents have been filed on food for over a hundred years, so this is nothing new. Patent class code 099 is food and beverage equimpent, patent class code 426 is food or edible material composition. Food patents can also appear in other class codes. Some of the debate seems to revolve around the notion that there is a big change coming.

Did patent laws enable Bill Gates and Microsoft to steal other people's ideas? No, actually it is the other way around. Microsoft has paid billions to others in settling patent lawsuits, or licensing patents. The patent system gives small inventors the ability to have some leverage and something of a level playing field with big companies. Is the system perfect? Of course not, but patents are an important way for a small company or lone inventor to have clout with big corporations.

Could you patent most techniques in cuisine? No, anything which has been published previously by somebody else is considered "prior art". Expired patents can be used by anybody. There are lots of other rules in addition. Essentially all classical techniques are not available for patent. The Dippin' Dots inventor has a patent on one particular way of making ice cream granules, but when the patent expires everybody will have the right to do it.

Chefs (or amateurs) who invent really novel cuisine have the ability to file a patent, but in most cases involving high end cuisine, this will not make sense because the market is too small to justify the cost of the patent. But hey, that is their choice - they can choose to protect it, or choose not to.

Big companies have this ability too, and when it comes to pre-packaged food or other large industrial food markets they do patent extensively. I doubt that a big food company are going to hire "the best chefs" and patent small volume, highly labor intensive foods that require ultra fresh ingredients and appeal only to a tiny segment of the populace.

In addition to legal protection there is the issue of credit for invention.

There is a definite segment of innovative chefs who establish their reputation (and that of their restaurant) by inventing new dishes.

While they could patent at least some of their dishes, they tend not to, and basically donate them to the public (especilaly in cases where they disclose the secrets by publishing a recipe). However, it seem to me to be quite understandable that a chef who bases his reputation on being innovative would get pissed off if somebody copies directly without attribution. That is just an appliaciton of the same plagarism/priority system that exists in scientific or academic work.

[Swisskaese]

Finally, a voice of reason. Thank you Nathan!

[kinichiwa]

As a chef in NYC, we have enough trouble getting waiters to remember to sell dessert! So, lets really get involved in patents and intellectualproperty and what not. Andre Soltner once said that nothing was new because people have been cooking for a long time. I am sure that somewhere some mother cooked her chicken in the same pot she was using as a vaporizer for her sick child...Isn't that sous vide?

[jango]

I live in Melbourne.

I went to Interlude with my aunty after it was mentioned on eG as a good place to go.

She ordered the pickled cucumber.

She looked at it and said, "Well, I'll be! All twirlied up! Do you remember when I did that to all our cucumbers in the 80's?"

I guess the chef at Alinea must have been inspired by my aunty.

Oh, by the way, she did it with rock melons too. If you choose one which is not all the way ripe and leave a bit of the green on when you peel it it looks really pretty all twirled up on a plate with a bit of garnish.

[cdh]

I believe I see prior art and/or earlier authorship appearing on this thread.

OK Fat Guy, are you ready to start hounding chefg for royalties on those twirled cucumbers?

Under your proposal, can jango's auntie get an injunction to make Alinea stop doing that? (plus attorneys fees, plus statutory damages of $30-150K?)

If not, why not?

Edited April 9, 2006 by cdh (log)

[butterscotch]

i like the idea of an industry group forming a code of ethics.

it seems the legal community is pretty useless when it comes to protecting creative folk, particularly if, as is often the case, there are no deep pockets involved.

  There are also industry groups that might be willing to get involved.

←

[Fat Guy]

If not, why not?

←

Yes, I'm ready to advocate copyright protection for any original work that has been copied. Are you? If not, why not? Because you don't believe chefs are good enough? Only bumper-sticker authors and manufacturers of fake plants?

Not that I believe for a second -- and neither do you -- that anybody's Auntie created anything like that dish. I'd of course change my mind if shown evidence, but there likely is none.

[butterscotch]

Unlike copyright, the substance of a violation of a patent is certain and you can't wreck the business of lots of your peers by extorting cash for "rights clearances" from them because they are cooking something arguably derivative of your work.  And there won't be executors and trustees (usually lawyers) with a fiduciary duty to wring every last cent out of the property for 70 years after you kick the bucket.

←

if your competitors need to take from your work or "wreck their business" are they really your peers?

should creative works just be given away, for anyone to copy immediately for any purpose?

it seems to be your suggestion they deserve no protection whatsoever. is that right?

[Fat Guy]

it seems the legal community is pretty useless when it comes to protecting creative folk

I hope it never happens that you (and all the other people on this topic who so casually stereotype and insult the legal profession) someday create something and need a lawyer to protect your interests. I do, however, know dozens of people who have been in that situation. In 100% of cases, they change their tunes as soon as they realize a lawyer is the only person in the world who can help them.

[cdh]

Yes, I'm ready to advocate copyright protection for any original work that has been copied. Are you? If not, why not?

←

Enough with the bumper sticker straw man. Bumper stickers are mostly catchphrases or slogans, and as such, their text is not copyrightable. Their graphic design may be.

I say not because there is a difference between an art and a craft. Find me a furniture maker who has gotten a copyright on a piece of furniture. There is a hell of a lot of skill involved in making either a fabulous dish or a fabulous piece of furniture. That skill barrier is sufficient to protect the artisans. When you can make it, you can make it.

Edited April 9, 2006 by cdh (log)

[Fat Guy]

Enough with the bumper sticker straw man. 

←

Okay, let's focus on other straw concepts instead.

Here's a drawing I just made. It's an example of something that's eligible for copyright protection. I can make a limited edition run of ten of these and sell them on eBay. If somebody else copies this and starts selling it, I can go after that person under the copyright laws. Maybe even a raid on the factory.

Now here's one of Ferran Adria's creations that you say isn't eligible for copyright protection. (Photo from the Daily Gullet courtesy of El Bulli).