The Chinese Philosophy of Food

[Tepee]

uhm...for instance, chinese medicine dates back 5000 yrs ago?

[chefzadi]

uhm...for instance, chinese medicine dates back 5000 yrs ago?

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what are the oldest known records of the Chinese humoral system?

[Tepee]

Okie dok...I think at this point, we can compile a not-so-cut-n-dried list of foods according to their inherent properties, bearing in mind that transformation of properties can/will happen depending on how they are treated. Would appreciate if you have any new food to add, to just copy and paste in your post, then add on from there, so that at the end of the day, there's a nice list for posterity...er hem. Oh...if you don't agree with what's on the list, do give your say, I ain't an expert.

Yang Foods

Ginger

Spicy Food

Deep-fried Food

Roasted Food

Durian (lol!)

Lychee

Nuts

Mutton

Beef

Coffee

Chocolate

Dong Guai/angelica sinensis

Yin Foods

Oong Choy/water spinach

Sai Yeung Choy/watercress

Water chestnut....Say? Do you notice the 'water' trend?

Cabbage

Cucumber (green or old)

Most melons

Mangosteen

Pineapple

Citrus fruit

Coconut water

Grass jelly drink

Tea

Barley drink

Chrysanthemum drink

Beer

Your turn....

[Ben Hong]

Yeah, I know, just assume the Chinese invented everything.

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In the early 1400s, the great Chinese Eunuch Admiral took a trip on a sailing ship, and along with a few of his cronies, he visited all the tropical paradises we now call Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, through the Straits of Malacca and Singapore, thence on to Sri Lanka, India, the Middle East, East Africa and on to Madagascar before he turned back to China. On board homeward were tribal chiefs, "ambassadors and plenipotentiaries" from most of these lands, who were taken back to China (voluntarily or not) to pay homage and tribute to the Chinese court. In return, China made these "primitive" societies rich and enlightened.

When the trade routes opened up whole new worlds to these people, lands and cities near or on these trade routes became fabulously wealthy. Enlightenment came with the influx and intermix of various cultures from other lands and other peoples. The Chinese being the only superpower in that part of the world then and because they were so much farther advanced culturally, militarily, politically, socially, became a model from which the tributary countries and peoples drew their inspiration. That influence is accepted now as a fact of life, whether it's in food or cooking, business practices, religions and general conduct.

It was also a two way street, as China benefitted hugely from the commercial intercourse and cultural interchange with these lands. One does not have to delve too deeply to find evidence of these cross cultural influences. But there is one important fact about various medical, humoral, and even spiritual effects of food as is being discussed. That is the Chinese can prove that their ideas and theories about acupuncture, herbal medicines and foods, chi and energy meridians, Y/Y, etc. as these theories and practices were documented and in general usage from oh, about several thousand years ago.

Did the Malays or anyone else come up with the notion of "humor" and yin-yang?? Documents, please.

BTW Old Cheng He sailed three times into the region and on one trip he had 500 vessels, and 80,000 civilians and soldiers. A lot of his ships were 400 feet long. Compare that with Old Chris Columbus' expedition 70 years later. The Italian caravelles Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria were in the 80 foot range, maybe smaller.

[Ben Hong]

uhm...for instance, chinese medicine dates back 5000 yrs ago?

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what are the oldest known records of the Chinese humoral system?

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Zadi, I did some extracurricular reading about 40 years ago, but I believe that there is a book called "Pharmacopeia Sineca" written at the beginning of the Han Dynasty, about 2000 years ago. Please don't quote me exactly on this, my memory is not all that good these days. For those of you fresher and brighter people, perhaps you can Google it up.

Edited March 1, 2006 by Ben Hong (log)

[chefzadi]

Zheng He - the Chinese Muslim Admiral

His name... Zheng He. The ships that he would sail throughout the Indian Ocean would retrace some of the same routes taken by Ibn Battuta, but he would be in huge boats called "junks". He would go to East Africa, Makkah, Persian Gulf, and throughout the Indian Ocean.

The rise and fall of 15th century Chinese sea power

[chefzadi]

uhm...for instance, chinese medicine dates back 5000 yrs ago?

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what are the oldest known records of the Chinese humoral system?

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Zadi, I did some extracurricular reading about 40 years ago, but I believe that there is a book called "Parmacopeia Sineca" written at the beginning of the Han Dynasty, about 2000 years ago. Please don't quote me exactly on this, my memory is not all that good these days. For those of you fresher and brighter people, perhaps you can Google it up.

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I'm not claiming to be brighter or fresher. I'm thinking of Zoraster and hot and cold foods.

I'm not really capable of these dicussions. I'm just a cook.

[Ben Hong]

Ahhh, Zadi. You may have hit on something! That old dude Zoroaster (Zarathustra) was the spark that begat a lot of theories about life and being. If there was one entity who could lay claim to the simultaneous formulation of these theories in this discussion, it would be him, as just by time context alone (anywhere from 500-3000BC ???you know when?)

He's the one person I had not thought of.

[Dejah]

So, a potato that is generally "neutral" when boiled retains its neutrality even after it is fried to a crisp and is called a potato chip??

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If the above is directed at my comments, then I would say," Read my Lips..errr words, Uncle Ben!"

The potato would remain neutral if boiled because water is a neutral element. BUT, deep fry it to a crisp, it would not lose its neutrality, but would be moderated by the deep frying and oil factors.

[Ben Hong]

Sue-On Moi Moi, right you are.

[Pan]

Uncle Ben, I think we should concentrate on Chinese concepts of yin and yang and so forth here, but I feel somewhat impelled to mention a country to the south and east of China that is the source of one of the ancient religions of China, and mention that their association with the Malay Peninsula is quite lengthy and thorough, with the Malays having once and possibly twice adopted religions from that direction (it is not clear whether Islam came to Malaysia from China or from India and Persia, but it is rather clear where Hinduism came from). I don't think you want to get into arguments with Indians about which medical system is older, Ayurveda or Chinese medicine. The Malays have clearly been influenced by both. No-one ever claimed that Malays invented the humoral system, merely that they have their own take on it. But the idea that the Chinese are the sole source of a system that the ancient Greeks were famous for is rather dubious. The Chinese have traded with states on the Malay Peninsula for a very long time, but Indian influence, especially on the West Coast, was deeper in ancient times. You can start by reading this excellent page on early Malay kingdoms by Malaysian historian Sabri Zain if you are interested in learning about things that happened in that neck of the woods long before Zheng He showed up.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Pan (log)

[Ben Hong]

Pan,

I don't care where and how and by whom the humoral systems started, really and truly. My approach to a philosophical diet is as omnivorous and eclectic as it is to my food diet and a lot of times I take anything presented to me with a grain of salt. All I know is that the topic was Yin Yang and the intrinsic "heat" values of various food in Chinese cooking and on a Chinese discussion board and started by a Chinese woman. These concepts, rightly or wrongly, have been generally accepted as Chinese for millenia and, for the purposes of this discussion, I believe that this feeling should prevail, until someone can direct us to documents that says otherwise.

If I may have sounded a little trenchant and caustic at your remarks, maybe that's from the attitude I assumed when you said that your knowledge of this whole thing was gleaned from a Malay neighbour.

As an aside one of best and most erudite members of the eG forums withdrew from these boards after one of the most senior members and prolific contributors argued with her over her culture and customs, into which she was born and raised. His knowledge came from a local family of immigrants. There are montebanks and charlatans and heretics everywhere, even on the eG.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Ben Hong (log)

[Pan]

This is the comment that you're reacting to, isn't it?

It's interesting to me that you feel like the yin or yang quality of a foodstuff can be altered by treatment such as longer cooking. Malays and, I believe, most other people who believe in the humoral system feel that humoral qualities of hot and cold are inherent in foodstuffs, regardless of the temperature or raw or cooked state of the item.

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Does this constitute arguing with Chinese people about your heritage? You'll notice I never asserted that humoral qualities are inherent in the Chinese humoral system; I wouldn't have known. So I was merely making the remark that it is interesting to me that Chinese and Malay people apparently have a different take on the inherentness of humoral qualities of foodstuffs (which has nothing to do with who invented the humoral system or when it got to other parts of the world). Since then, others -- Chinese all, if I remember correctly -- have asserted that this inherentness is in fact a commonality. They and not I are the ones politely disagreeing with you about Chinese concepts. I never even heard of yin and yang as qualities of foods before reading this thread! You all are teaching me lots of interesting things I never knew, and I value that.

As far as where my knowledge of the humoral system comes from, you might want to Google "Carol Laderman" and find out why I would know things about the Malay (or, to be more precise, East Coast rural Malay) take on the humoral system and, to a lesser extent, some other takes on the humoral system. It is not just knowledge gained from idle chatter with one neighbor, but neither have I ever claimed in-depth knowledge of the Chinese concepts being discussed in this thread.

And now, let's please get back to the subject at hand.

[Ben Hong]

Yeah, I know, just assume the Chinese invented everything.

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More like reacting to the "shot" quoted above. Emoticon or no, it is still a shot, given the context.

I agree, finally, that this horse is well into the stage of incipient rigor mortis and it doesn't need any more beating. R.I.P.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Ben Hong (log)

[hzrt8w]

The following dishes are examples of the "Yang" food:

Sichuan Hot Pepper Chicken (La Zi Ji).

Braised Mutton with Beer.

After consuming these dishes, almost instant sore throat!

[anzu]

A pregnant Indian aquaintance ate pineapple the other day and - after the pineapple had already been consumed - numerous other women told her that she was putting herself at risk for miscarriage as pineapple was 'too heating' to eat in pregnancy. Seeking to put her mind at rest (she was extremely upset, but the pineapple was already eaten, what was she meant to do?!), I found an article on 'hot foods' in India and how their consumption is believed to affect pregnancy.

Since this concerns India rather than China, and is therefore somewhat tangential to the actual topic, I nevertheless thought that people might be interested in comparing which foods are considered hot in the two cultures (and also how much the classification of 'hot' can vary regionally within India itself).

The article is here, Table 2 contains a list of foods.

Moving back to China: a lot of people have said how elder (usually female) family members passed on their knowledge about the intrinsic qualities of food.

I thought I'd share my own experiences in China: as a foreigner who spoke Chinese, I found it hard to avoid people - even complete strangers (and yes, they were usually elder women ) telling me that the food I was eating was 'too hot' or 'too cold'.

On certain occasions, people were giving me advice because it looked as if I had a cold - actually I was in a city in China where the air pollution was very bad, and my body responded to this with a running nose and other symptoms that resembled cold symptoms.

Whatever I ate, it seemed that someone would appear - be it the woman cleaning the hotel room, or even a complete stranger in the street - and they would tell me off, saying that eating that paricular food would not let my body recover from the cold that I obviously had.

I seem to recall (it's quite a long while back) that peanuts, mangos, mandarins, bread, coffee, were all BIG no-nos (too yang, I presume).

Although mandarins were not okay, oranges apparently were alright.

Seeing as I didn't actually have a cold (and figured that my body would get accustomed with time to the air pollution), I wanted to keep eating those foods - it's hard to abstain from ripe mangos! Although such concern from people I didn't even know was very touching, it actually got to the point where I was hiding from all people to eat certain foods so that I wouldn't get told off

Another thing I was told was that there is a difference in the yin or yang quality of different types of tea. Flower teas in particular were NOT to be drunk with yumcha, only wulong/oolong was acceptable. (this rankled, as I like all tea except for wulong, and my objections were firmly over-ruled).

Does this distinction between different types of tea sound familiar to anyone?

And, changing topic direction once again:

the earlier discussions touching on when Chinese food philosophy came into being got me interested, and I did a little reading up of my own.

I'll summarize them here (I have to summarize because although I took notes I was scatterbrained enough not to keep proper track of the umpteen sources I took the notes from ).

Disclaimer here before people start shooting me down in flames:

although I do actually have a PhD in social history , the subject I know most about is far removed from this particular area of knowledge. So what I am doing here is summarizing other people's work, with a little conjecture of my own thrown in. It is meant to be a jumping-off point for discussion, not cut-and-dried statements from a viewpoint of extreme knowledge.

Although the concept of yin and yang do indeed have much earlier origins, the earliest existing written records relating yin and yang to food, and applying this relationship to balancing the body, treatment of illness etc. come later. They apparently date to approximately the first and second centuries AD. The two works are the Shennongbencaojing and the Shanghanzabinglun (my sources were in English, I don't have the characters even though I couldd guess at some/most of them.)

The Greco-Roman- Persian-Arab concept of balance between the humors follows a similar pattern - the concept of four elements and four humors was posited earlier (Empedoclus 490-430 BC for the four elements). However, linking the concept of balancing out the humors through avoidance or consumption of particular foods came later. The work of Dioscorides in particular develop this concept. This was written in the first century AD.

In India, a relationship between diet, body, and balance (ayurveda) allegedly existed as early as 1500 BC (disclaimer here, the source I had this from was rather too nationalistic and vague for my tastes). More reliably, sources dating from earlier times were written down and codified in the fourth century AD (texts: Charaka samhita and Sushruta samhita) and the seventh century AD (Ashtangahrdya samhita).

Many scholars suggest that there was a strong cross-fertilization of ideas between the various systems.

Certainly in Roman times there was trade between Rome <-- > India <--> China. There was also, for example, direct contact between India and Greece in 327 BC (Alexander's invasion), Greek trade contacts before this, Roman trade after this date, etc. Trade often involved the exchange of knowledge as well as commodities, so ideas relating food/body type/ medical applications may well have been transmitted at this time.

Certain later links are clear. For example, the Greco-Arab-Persian system utilizing the concept of humors was developed further by Galen (Arabic name Jalinus) 131 - 200 AD, Rhazes (Al-Razi) 859 - 932 AD, and Avicenna (Ibn-Sena) 980 - 1037 AD. This medical tradition was also introduced to India by the Arabs and reached a high point in India after the Mongols invaded Persia, when scholars of what was called 'Greek medicine' (unani) fled to India and continued teaching and practicing there. The flowering of 'Greek medicine' in India lasted through approximately the 13 - 17 C (though practitoners of unani medicine are still common in India today).

Getting speculative here: there was a lot of intellectual and cultural interaction between India and China throughout much of this period. Most of this interaction was less spectular than Zhenghe, but it was none the less effective. One example was Buddhist monks going from India to China. This is NOT something I know about, but surely it is not inconceivable that concepts of yin and yang, hot and cold, the humors, treating illness with food, etc. were transmitted throughout this period.

[twobrain]

I would love to find out more about this. Every year I go out to eat dim sum at the Empress Pavilion and my friend makes me drink tea because dim sum is "hot" and tea is "cooling". THen we got into if you eat to much meat you must balance it with vegetables. So one day I went to a churrascuria (sp?) and the next he took me a wonderful chinese vegetarian place that I would go back to in a heartbeat! I also remember in in Thailand my cousin's wife was Chinese and after she gave birth her Mom told her to drink ginger? Said it was good for the system. Would you know why?

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theres multiple reasons for drinking green tea, and generally after a meal... probably the main reason is the tannins in the tea aid in digestion, helps remove flatulence, green tea can be used to treat diarrhea...

ginger tea... they use that everywhere... helps with nausea... vomiting, morning sickness, menstrual cramps, supressed menstruation, bronchitis, aches, and spasms

probably has an effect on serotonin levels...

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this is a really good book that will explain chinese medicine/nutrition

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_...20whole%20foods

Edited March 31, 2006 by twobrain (log)

[ash123]

Being a non-Chinese I am little hesitant to start this discussion. However this topic has been of some interest to me. Chinese food is delicate, in many the flavors are subtle. There is a fine art of balancing tastes, harmonizing flavors and achieving the perfect ying/yang balance. A lot I guess is influenced by Taoist and Confucian doctrine. The Confucius stress on colors and presentation, and the Taoist stress on purity/subtlety, balance has been some of the basic principles of Chinese Gastronomy. Heat/Cold, Sweet/Sour, Vegetables/Meats are some of the harmonizing principles to produce the whole.

It would be interesting to discuss which foods 'go together' both in subtle art of flavors, and in their basic food characteristic (like balance of heat and cold). Which vegetables/meats should be cooked together, which should be cooked only in ginger, or which should be used only with garlic, which sauces go together, which foods are ying and which are yang. This topic is wide open for discussion and contribution. Anything from balancing foods, discussing various flavors and tastes to even philosophy of Chinese cooking is welcome. If you are interested in this then please contribute.

Thanks

Ash

Edited May 18, 2006 by ash123 (log)

[ash123]

I wasn't aware that there was a pre-existing thread on this. My new thread has been merged with the earlier one. My interest here is also in understanding, which flavors and tastes go well together, essentially 'what goes well with what'? It may or maynot be limited to yin/yang balance.

Thanks!

Ashu

Being a non-Chinese I am little hesitant to start this discussion. However this topic has been of some interest to me. Chinese food is delicate, in many the flavors are subtle. There is a fine art of balancing tastes, harmonizing flavors and achieving the perfect ying/yang balance. A lot I guess is influenced by Taoist and Confucian doctrine. The Confucius stress on colors and presentation, and the Taoist stress on purity/subtlety, balance has been some of the basic principles of Chinese Gastronomy. Heat/Cold, Sweet/Sour, Vegetables/Meats are some of the harmonizing principles to produce the whole.

It would be interesting to discuss which foods 'go together' both in subtle art of flavors, and in their basic food characteristic (like balance of heat and cold). Which vegetables/meats should be cooked together, which should be cooked only in ginger, or which should be used only with garlic, which sauces go together, which foods are ying and which are yang.  This topic is wide open for discussion and contribution. Anything from balancing foods, discussing various flavors and tastes to even philosophy of Chinese cooking is welcome. If you are interested in this then please contribute.

Thanks

Ash

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