Best neighborhood in Paris

[anil]

If one were to eat out everyday, what neighborhood would you choose to live in Paris ?

[tony h]

Any of them

[Steve Plotnicki]

Anil - I'm trying to find out the thrust of your question. Is this a hypothetical and you are just trying to figure out which arrondisement has the best food? Or does actual living conditions matter because you are going to move there?

Personally, I'm fond of the residential portion of the 7th arr. Between Invalides and Avenue Bourdenaiss. It is quiet, not overrun by tourists, has a good market on rue Cler, a couple of great purveyors in the area like Anne-Marie Cantin and Poujerain which isn't far away, and I think it has a nice grouping of neighborhood-type restaurants that are fairly inexpensive. It has bad metro access though. One has to walk to Invalides or Ecole Militaire to catch the train. But it is an easy walk (20 minutes?) to other points of interest like St. Germain, Montparnasse, the Grand Palais or the Pont Alma to get to the Champs Elysees. But if you want the neighborhood with the most restaurants per capita, then move to a residential portion of the 8th. The area behind the Champs-Elysee area off of between Saint-Honore and the Parc Monceau is lovely and within walking distance of loads of good restaurants. And the very good rue Poncelet market is nearby along with the excellent cheese shop Alleosse. Of course there are probably a good dozen other areas to suggest that might fit the bill. But those are my two favorites.

[Bux]

That's a difficult question that might be answered by other questions before a satisfactory response could be given. One immediate question might ask how much you intend to spend for dinner, or what sort of restaurants you would like to frequent. It's easy enough to get elsewhere for the occasional treat, but as good as any neighborhood might be, I'd like a metro stop handy for cheap easy access to other parts of Paris to increase my choice of daily restaurants. When we visit Paris, we tend not to focus very much on the restaurants near us, but hop in the Metro or take a bus to places on a list of restaurants we've collected without regard to location or where we will be staying. These are just as often as not, inexpensive restaurants. If you eat out every day, do you need to shop for anything to have at home? I can't imagine not having access to good markets, bread, cheese and pastry to bring home even if I ate out every day and access to shopping would override restaurants most of the time.

[magnolia]

...I'm fond of the residential portion of the 7th arr. Between Invalides and Avenue Bourdenaiss. It is quiet, not overrun by tourists, has a good market on rue Cler, a couple of great purveyors in the area like Anne-Marie Cantin and Poujerain...

Have we been staying on the same rue Cler? If so, I must disagree: Inch for inch, rue Cler pieton and environs must be one of the most touristy ´hoods in all of Paris (with the possible exception of the Marais). Yes, it´s a beautiful place to live. And Marie Cantin is great and the Cafe du Marche fairly priced and consistently good. The crepe place next to Cafe du Marche is also good.

But the rest of the market stalls have to be the biggest rip off in the whole city ! I have heard of one decent restaurant in the area (I think you even mentinoed it Steve) but the only other well known place I can think of - Thoumieux - is a disgrace.

Still within sighing distance of the Eiffel Tower, I´d say the 15th is good for both ´hip and happening´restaurants (os a moelle & offspring ,cafe du commerce, some good ones near Emil Zola which slip my mind) and also for a couple of fantastic markets, one on rue du commerce and one under the El (or maybe it´s "elle" given that it´s Paris!) also gets high marks for accessibility to other foodie neighbourhoods like the 14th (la Regalade, despite what Simon may say) &tc.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Okay restaurants in the 7th. In no particular order and from the top of my head.

Les Fontaine de Mars

Violon D'Ingress

Beato

La Poule au Pot

Chez L'Ami Jean

Paul Minchelli

Petrossian

D'Chez Eux

L'Auberge Bressane

Le Bourdennaiss

Le Divellac

L'Affriole

There are a bunch more if I picked up my Gaullt Millau. As for the 14th, that's the BCBG arr. and where the yuppies live. I mean it's nice but a true schlep to the heart of the city.

In Paris one can live anywhere. People like living in Monmartre but it's not for me. I like it where it gets quiet when the sun goes down. Yet it bustles by day and the population is the right mix of locals and strangers. And it's s short walk/ride to the heart of the city. I'd hate to live in the 5th and 6th because the strangers outnumber the locals to a great extent. Same with the Marais. Arrondisements outside of the ones that ring the center are almost like going to New Jersey or the boroughs

[Wilfrid]

I'm not sure I would call an arrondissement a neighborhood.

KIDDING!!!

[anil]

If one were to eat out everyday, what neighborhood would you choose to live in Paris ?

Say one had an assignment, or a posting to Paris for >tourist & < relocation no: days. I could have easily re-phrased my question as Is Quartre Latin, still a good place to eat and live ?, no

As a VFV to Rio, I'd say Leblon is such a neighborhood.

[thefoodhunter]

Le Quartier Latin is overrun with tourists year round. I live in Paris and have lived in the 7th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 18th and now live in the 10th. It doesn't matter where you live for going out to eat or shopping for food. I cross town at least twice a week to get special items at LA Grande Epicerie and organic food at the Raspail market. The big difference between US cities and Parisian eating habits is time. We allow ourselves (and our system encourages us) to spend a long time buying and preparing food. Once you leave the cities, most people shop in giant hypermarkets. To me the nest english language guide to Paris dining is Zagats Paris. You can also check out my web site thefoodhunter.com (unabashed plug) and read my restaurant reviews.

[Bux]

Thoumieux - is a disgrace.

What a pity. We passed by and it looked as inviting an old place as any I'd seen. If it had been lunch time, I might have walked in just because of its looks. I had hoped to hear more about, although that's not what I had hoped to hear.

Okay restaurants in the 7th. In no particular order and from the top of my head.

Les Fontaine de Mars

Okay. It was lunch time when we passed by and I recalled the name from an old list a friend had of inexpensive places. We wanted little more than a snack in terms of a French lunch and enjoyed a salad and light main courses, but it seemed quite capable of offering more. Anything but a destination restaurant, but the kind I wish I had in my neighborhood in New York where I am hard pressed to eat as well for anywhere near the money. Its type however is not uncommon in Paris.

The quartier latin is also a farily large area and has its better and worse corners. It's the area to which I first gravitated as a student, but have felt the need to move west as I grew older. It's very touristy and thus full of restaurants, many of which depend on the tourist trade rather than the loyal client. Not all tourists are without taste or guidebooks and there's plenty to choose from. It's also full of student restaurants offering meals at very low prices. That's most true to the east bordering on an area with many Arab and north African restaurants. My preference would be the 6th closer to the 7th which puts you closer to Plotnicki's 7th but unfortuantely on the other side of all those ministerial buidlings. I recall several boring walks at night on streets lined with government offices and behind the senat. They're fairly well patrolled by police however.

I've liked the 6th right on the edge of the 7th and a few blocks south of St. Germain. It's centrally located and close to the action, but somehow a bit quieter and residential. It offers two metro stops with three lines at Sèvres-Babylon and St. Sulpice and a good department store with food mart--Bon Marché. Catherine Deneuve has an apartment on place St. Sulpice, or so I've been told. I figure she can live wherever she wants in Paris. Moreover she chose to live there before Pierre Hermé set up his shop just off the place. There are good restaurants around. There are some that have been on my list for some time, but I haven't yet tried. So what does it say that I like the area, but usually find myself going elsewhere to eat. I think it's just that Paris is so easy a city in which to get around by foot, metro or bus.

My assumption is that Gopnik may have lived in the quartier latin while he was writing From Paris to the Moon as he described a local brasserie as sort of a second home. That brasserie is also very heavily frequented by English speaking tourists.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux - Gopnik lived in the 7th when he wrote the book. At first he lived right near the D'Orsay, possibly on rue Vernieull I believe. But then his landlord reclaimed the apartment and he moved into the building on Blvd. St. Germaine that houses the restaurant "Au Fins Gourmets" which is on the block east of Blvd. Raspail. As for the St. Sulpice area, I had considered it but that is one of the most expensive areas in Paris. It becomes a bit more middle class as you walk towards Montparnasse and you get to the Notre-Dames des Champs metro stop.

On those blocks in the 7th with ministerial buildings, which are mostly on rue Varenne, are you aware that contained within many of those dour looking walls are entire residential villages with apartment buildings and free standing homes? Some of the most expensive residences in Paris are within those walls. And you would never know they exist by just walking on the rue Grenelle and the rue Varenne.

Anil - You don't want to live in the Latin Quarter but you could possibly want to live in the 5th but away from the touristy areas. The area just east of the Sorbonne is lovely. It has that nice market block on St. Germaine I forget the name of that market. And down on the other end of the hill along rue Monge, behind the Jardins Luxembourg, not far from where the large Mosque is, is a nice area as well. And near the cookbook store Librarie des Gourmets. But some of the streets in the 5th are deadly. Like being near rue Mouffetard isn't a good idea as there are hangouts for college students and a long, noisy market a few times a week that winds down the street. The thing about Paris is that it's a small city. If you lived in the area I initialy recommended, or in the area I'm describing in the 5th now, you would be a no more than a 15-20 minute walk to St. Germaine which is the cultural heart of the city. I'm wondering when you say Latin quarter, do you really mean St. Germaine?

[Bux]

Bux - Gopnik lived in the 7th when he wrote the book. At first he lived right near the D'Orsay, possibly on rue Vernieull I believe. But then his landlord reclaimed the apartment and he moved into the building on Blvd. St. Germaine that houses the restaurant "Au Fins Gourmets" which is on the block east of Blvd. Raspail.  As for the St. Sulpice area, I had considered it but that is one of the most expensive areas in Paris. It becomes a bit more middle class as you walk towards Montparnasse and you get to the Notre-Dames des Champs metro stop.

For a moment I couldn't think of why someone would frequent the Balzar on a regular basis unless they lived nearby, but I had a nagging feeling that when we were last in Paris, I thought we were staying very close to where Gonik lived. We were just off rue du Bac between St. Germain and the quais. That would have been a few blocks from both his places. It was not an inconvenient area and quite central especially in terms of the right bank and the Louvre, but I always felt that block or two before the Esplanade des Invalides was a deterrent to walking in that direction as they were so boring.

It does not surprise me that Catherine Deneuve would live in an expensive area, yet I've usually found the cafes on place St. Sulpice filled with scruffy looking students. There is also a hotel on the place in which I've stayed which I would describe as budget. I no longer see it in the Michelin. Perhaps it's now shabby rather than budget. I will note that the shops in the area are tres chic.

That south end of the sixth near Raspail and blvd. du Montparnasse has always seemed nice to me, but the boulevard seemed so full of fake places and chain restaurants the last time I was there. It was an area I really liked forty years ago and can't completely adjust to what it's like now. Then again, I go back the gare Montparnasse before there was a tower.

[jaybee]

Personally, I'm fond of the residential portion of the 7th arr. Between Invalides and Avenue Bourdenaiss.

This is the area is where we have stayed the last few times in Paris. The "neighborhood" is quiet at night (a major issue in Paris, where the motorcycles can drive you nuts at night). As long as the area is near a decent metro that doesn't require six changes to get somewhere central, the "neighborhood" restaurants are not so important. But here they are plentiful and good: the Fontaine de Mars, if the new owners and chef Lefevre have maintained the quality of food is a great "local" spot with lots of warmth and welcome. The last two meals there were memorable for the food and the fun; Le Florimand is not too shabby, and neither are Au Bonne Accueil, L'Oeillade, Au Petit Tonneau or Le P'tit Troquet--all small lovingly run bistros that can satisfy any appetite or quest for a variety of regional dishes.

The view of the dome of Napoleon's tomb at night is impressive, the Metros are good, (Ecole Militaire, La Tour Marbourg or Les Invalides) and taxis are not too difficult to find at several excellent cab stands.

I have also stayed many days and nights in an apartment near the Parc Monceau, a tony neighborhood with a good street market nearby. Being able to walk to the parc and sit with a good book and a cigar during a sunny day is a pleasure not to be under-estimated. In fact, come to think of it, living (as opposed to visiitng as a tourist) near a great park in Paris may be more desireable than living near good restaurants.

[mogsob]

If someone else was paying, the 8th. The combination of three (maybe 4) 3 star restaurants and Fauchon is unbeatable.

If I'm paying, the 7th, so long as I can cross the street and go to Polaine.

[Gavin Jones]

It depends what you like. I found the 7eme to have the anodyne quality wealthy neighbourhoods often have which much of the life going on behind closed doors in private residences. This might be your thing or not.

As everybody has said public transport is excellent and Paris is pretty small so nowhere is prohibitive.

I've lived in some less fancy areas (edge of the 14eme, in the 18eme on top of Barbes-Rochechouart - ). The thing I liked was where there was some residual neighbourhood feel and you got a sense of people living and working together at various social levels. My feeling is that this is being pushed very rapidly out from the centre, But Marc's suggestion of the 10eme is probably a good one - easy walk into the middle but a neighbourhood feel.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"The thing I liked was where there was some residual neighbourhood feel"

Gavin - I always got that feeling from the commercial strip of rue St. Dominique between Latour Maubourg and Ecole Militaire which is why I like that area. It's one of the few commercial streets in the center of Paris that is geared around everyday life. Granted it doesn't have the color of rue Belleville, but it's still mainly populated with Parisian moms picking their kids up froim school.

Mogsob - Is Poilane in the 6th or 7th? That side of rue de Cherche Midi is in the 7th on the other side of Blvd. Raspail.

[Bux]

Cherche-Midi is one block east of the division between the 6th and th 7th. The dividing street is rue du Sèvres until it meets rue des Saints Pères which becomes the line. Poilane is securely in the 6th by a short block. The 7th has Poujaran, however.

[Michael Laiskonis]

I enjoy the 7th for all the reasons mentioned above ( quiet, residential feel, the convenient No. 8 Metro line) but I noticed some signs of where the neighborhood may be heading... a gleaming new Lenôtre outlet opened just two weeks ago on the corner of Rue Cler and Rue Champs du Mars, which is nice, but seems a bit out of place, and a little pricey for the neighborhood. The worst is a new 'Seattle style' coffee place on Rue Saint Dominique. I hope that it is no longer there when we return!

Might I also add, on the other side of the Invalides, on Rue Bourgogne, Tante Maguerite and Rollet-Pradier, to whom Steingarten gave nods for the best baquette in Paris a few years back. Still, Poujaran gets my vote.

[jaybee]

Cherche-Midi is one block east of the division between the 6th and the 7th.

I stayed for several days on Cherche Midi in a front room of a small hotel during a hot spell. Open windows let in the sounds of roaring motorcycles until about 4 am when the sounds of a woman in the extacy of a prolonged orgasm sang amplified off the stones walls and streets. It was a sleepless night. I've learned to ask for rooms on the courtyard.

[magnolia]

"

Thoumieux - is a disgrace.

What a pity. We passed by and it looked as inviting an old place as any I'd seen. If it had been lunch time, I might have walked in just because of its looks. I had hoped to hear more about, although that's not what I had hoped to hear."

I have been there twice in my life, within the last eight years - both times I was taken by non-French people new to Paris, who thought it was the kind of place a non-French person visiting Paris (me) would think was the 'quintessential' Parisian bistro. The way people in London think Americans will automatically like Joe Allens or even TGIF (!)

Admittedly I have not been there in six years but based on my two visits*, unless I hear otherwise, I wouldn't go back. Yes, it does look beautiful with authentic bistro decor, but I recall being incensed that the menu was one of those affairs where ONLY a prix fixe is available, and each course had about two dishes that are actually part of the prix fixe, and the rest were only available by paying a supplement. It was clearly on the bus-tour circuit (sorry to be a snob about it), and the service was appropriately appalling, sneery and impatient - and not in the 'charmingly Parisian ' sneery way you expect from lifer waiters. I remember nothing else whatsoever about either meal - not the price, not what I had, nothing - and I'm not the kind of person who looks for the bad.

QUOTE: My assumption is that Gopnik may have lived in the quartier latin while he was writing From Paris to the Moon as he described a local brasserie as sort of a second home. That brasserie is also very heavily frequented by English speaking tourists.

I believe Gopnik lived on or near Rue Cler, and I think the brasserie he talks about is the one on the corner of Rue Cler & Grenelle (or one street up from Grenelle), just down from Espace Bosquet - the one with the dumbwaiter set into the floor just inside the front door.

[Bux]

I'm pretty sure the brasserie with the staff dispute, the one that was taken over by the Flo group, etc, was the Balzar in the 5th on rue des Ecoles.

It was clearly on the bus-tour circuit (sorry to be a snob about it)

Nothing snobbish about that comment and it implies nothing derogatory about the bus tour people except for their willingness to be shlepped though restaurants dedicated to doing business with customers who are clueless and will not likely return no matter what, which is another way of describing a restaurant with low incentive to please. As they have a menu posted outside, I probably wouldn't have been upset by the fact that every dish had a supplement.

Anyway, part of my reaction when I passed by was why hadn't I ever heard about this place and that it must be too good to be true. Nevertheless we were walking back from Poujaran and I was thinking there must be more to the neighborhood.

Poujaran offered an excellent display of bread, rolls and pastry as well as paranoia. Having bought my small selection of goodies, I handed the bag to my wife and picked up my camera to photograph the counter, only to see the shopkeeper wildy flailing her arms across the goods and eventually in front of my face. The reaction was no less than I would have expected had the KGB found me standing inside a secret missle base duing the height of the cold war. Clearly the spy had been outed and now you know why MacDonald's still uses their sesame buns--because I had been unable to photograph the secret French rolls. My though was to photograph the things I had bought before eating them and hold the photos for ransom when it occurred to me that anyone could buy a selection and take photographs and that mine would be without added value. What I'm still trying to figure out is why that never occurred to the clerk. It must be the counter that's unique. Check it out when you go there, but don't try and take photographs.

[anil]

Thanks eveybody, promises were made, gifts were exchanged - Two blocks from Sorbonne, a block off Balzar (sp?), an apartment with an extensive library -- In return, one in NYC near CP,Lincoln Center, Bwy and all restaurants from 63rd - 49th on the west-side with easy walking distance

[Bux]

There are worse places to stay.

Are the books in French or English? Do you read French? Will you have a computer and Internet access to keep us informed? There is an easyEverything with cheap Internet access on rue de l'Harpe a block or so north of St. Germain and St. Michel.

The Balzar served a decent andouillette, although it was a bit refined. I don't think it's much of a restaurant, but it's open on Sundays and useful if for that alone.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I used to enjoy taking Sunday lunch at the Balzar. Not that many places for Sunday lunch in Paris. It was very pleasant. Not too busy on Sundays and one could gaze out into the street for long periods of time. My wife would always order the roast chicken and I would usually order the choucroute. But that was before "le scandel" and I'm sure that they serve the same food prepared in the Flo commissary that all the other Flo restaurants serve. Les Fontaines is in that neighborhood and it used to be a good place for steaks. But Moulin au Vent, Chez Henri is about a 15 minute walk and that's an excellent place. And l'Atlas on Blvd. St. Germaine is one of Paris's best Moroccans. And directly opposite is Chez Rene where they make a mean Boeuf Bourgignon.

[marcus]

Les Fontaines used to be the definitive Paris find, excellent food with no decor, lots of locals, but had been discovered as well. Even the celeri remoulade was excellent, which is to me almost inconceivable. Unfortunately ? Lacipiere, who did start out as a butcher, sold the restaurant, probably 5 years ago now, and while it remains slightly above average, it is no longer worth seeking out. Lacipiere's son is the chef owner of Au Bon Accueil, a more upscale and somewhat overrated bistro near the Eiffel Tower.

My favorite for a Sunday dinner is L'Ardoise in the first on a side street near the Place Vendome. It is more like a diner than a restaurant, the service is brusque and the turnover rapid, but the prices are low, the chef brings out the succulence of the basic raw materials, particularly veal, and the flavor intensity can be startling.