Hangin' with the peeps

[Sandra Levine]

Sandra - But there wouldn't be enough interest among the mass market for that type of information. But there would be for chefs and what they would call "amateurs" in France.

I agree. That is why Rosengarten is off the air. But, I watched him and so did others. What percentage of Saveur's readers consist of chefs and "amateurs? I strongly suspect, not as many as you'd think, or they would have articles such as those you have suggested.

[macrosan]

Soba I have eaten hot dogs on the streets of New York and Chicago, in the ballparks of Phoenix and the Bronx and Los Angeles, and even in a cafe in Boston. I have indeed sampled Hebrew National. I cannot say I have ever enjoyed a hot dog.

I get the feeling that Aurora has it right. It's a nostalgia trip, and a mind association with baseball and the like (I do love baseball). I can quite understand that, but I don't think (pending my forthcoming education by Fat Guy) that justifies a culinary discussion of the merits of one hot dog against another.

Ah well, breath is bated in anticipation ....

[Fat Guy]

Macrosan, I would characterize Hebrew National as the bare-minimum entry-level acceptable frankfurter for a person of taste -- and that's assuming it's properly grilled and garnished, and served on a good bun. Most ball park and street vendor franks don't even meet that minimum requirement, because even if they happen to be Hebrew National (or other borderline-acceptable brands like Shofar and Isaac Gellis) they're incompetently prepared and presented. When you get into the places that really do hot dogs right, you're talking about worthy sausages that are essentially knackwurst but thinner. They're cooked so as to bring out their best qualities, and usually that means on a griddle until they develop a great crust that snaps. Garnishes are very important, as is the bread (at a bare minimum the roll must be warmed). I consider a good frankfurter to be a high quality food product that should taste good to anybody who likes sausages in general -- enjoyment of a good frankfurter should not require any specially adjusted American nostalgic palate. Sure there are Americans who will eat any old hot dog -- even those nasty boiled things from the street vendors -- and think it's great, just as the majority of people in any nation -- even France -- don't have a clue what good food is. But that's not what I'm talking about. Now if you go to some of the good hot dog places like Holly Moore reviews on his site, it will be easier to have this conversation with you. As it is, it doesn't sound as though you've tasted any hot dog specimens that serious hot dog people would hold out as being any good.

[SobaAddict70]

If it's true that the Food Network shows are going in this direction--it makes me wonder why Saveur and the NY Times haven't lowered themselves for more street cred even sooner.

Probably because these two rank themselves among quasi-food journalism rags, and so it wouldn't do to write about something that's better suited towards the weekend section of the New York Times (i.e., the Travel section, which btw, contains a great deal of restaurant/food reviews). The NYTimes especially -- they need to market themselves to all aspects of the general population, and for some, that means articles which serve to introduce to the masses food/cuisine presented from the insider looking inwards....on occasion, once in a blue moon, to use an overused cliche. You see examples of this statement in the Times' occasional special on foods of America (e.g., Chinook salmon; apples; native Louisiana cooking (specifically New Orleans)). You see it more often in Saveur (incidentally, this is why I no longer subscribe to Saveur). Bon Appetit has a regular feature in 12 out of 13 issues every single year; a single city or destination is covered, and the food angle is justified by dropping in one or two recipes (ditto why I let my subscription with BA run out).

I suspect that Saveur's readership consists of people who are less interested in the whys and wherefores of cooking and food in general than in finding the next cool place to visit/eat/travel to/do. As for the Times, all sorts of people read it, and so, the theory is probably more complicated.

Macrosan -- is it the flavoring that you find underwhelming? the texture (or lack thereof)? the casing? the toppings? the method of service? or perhaps its the nature of the beast? after all, we're the stepchild that lost our way...to certain povs. (yes I'm an Anglophile and a monarchist to boot.) the closest British equivalent I can imagine to a hot dog is a piece of black pudding, but that's not something served to the general public, I don't think.

There's a reason that most food magazines are travelogues.

Mr. P.: True, dat, for the reason you give in your reply. But I suspect, and mind you, this is cynical old me, another reason is that most people don't give a hootin' nanny, in this age of convenience and loosening standards. I don't want to make sweeping generalizations (and its so easy to do), but when was the last time people actually spent a good portion of their available time cooking? Nowadays, most just pop their favorite dinner/leftovers or what have you into the microwave, either because of lack of time, laziness, or some other combination involving something else and either or both of those two factors. Why bother to cook when you can just pop open a can and drink your breakfast? Etc. etc. I think the food mags realize that the desire to cook or at least, to appear as if one knows how to cook is there, but that the numbers don't support this notion, at least in sufficient terms. Therefore, they market their content to appeal to their readership. We, the Gentle Readers, have only ourselves to blame.

This may eventually change. There was an article that appeared in the Times, or elsewhere (can't remember where), that teenagers have exhibited a new interest in cooking, and that this isn't a passing fad, a la The Naked Chef and his ilk. We'll see, though....at least I hope so. Then perhaps, BA, Gourmet, and the NYTimes can get back to the genuine business of food writing.

SA

[Blue Heron]

Sure there are Americans who will eat any old hot dog -- even those nasty boiled things from the street vendors -- and think it's great, just as the majority of people in any nation -- even France -- don't have a clue what good food is.

First Steve P. tells me The famous NY style pizza is a thing of the past, and now I read Steven Shaw says the NY street vendor boiled hotdogs are nasty. My image of NY is falling apart right before my very eyes.

[lxt]

Everyone is allowed to celebrate and a good restaurant treats all its customers like kings, not just the regulars. I hate seeing anyone get obvious preferential treatment in a restaurant, just about as much as I hate people who expect it.

Lesley - It is absolutely wonderful when a restaurant’s policy is to make its customers feel comfortable and welcomed indiscriminately; however, I may disagree that preferential treatment in case of “regular patrons” should not be acceptable. A special table by the window, a little touch of an extra dessert at the end of dinner as a token of appreciation… What is wrong with that?

If I am not mistaken, the subject of whether the quality of one’s dinner may differ dramatically for a known reviewer vs. a regular customer had been discussed previously, and some of the thoughts expressed were that a restaurant’s ability to overexert itself, in fact, is limited. What a reviewer may receive, however, is “special treatment” unrelated to the chef’s performance: better service, for example. Though one may view this as bribery, it may simply be explained as people’s desire to be at their best for someone they consider to be important. Wouldn’t we all under certain personal or professional circumstances attempt to bring our potential up to its limit (a job interview, a special presentation that may result in promotion, a special date that may result in marriage etc.)? Why should we apply different moral standards to restaurants, considering we do it on a daily basis?

Interestingly enough, I had a chance to witness “special treatment” that was extended to a notable patron during a dinner at Blue Hill. The number of waters, busboys and the frequency with which they came to our table with and without any need was simply overwhelming. The only missing attribute from having been treated like a “king” was the lack of a beautician tending to his nails before the meal. However, the overall impression was that these were hard working people whose only intention was to look good in front of someone who had the power to “spread the word” about the restaurant.

[Aurora]

Aurora - White Castle burgers are an amazing bit of American ingenuity. Showing up at WC at 2:30 in the morning and watching them make a new batch can be mezmerizing!

Plotnicki (you don't mind that I call you "Plotnicki," do you?)-- I appreciate your appreciation of WC and all of its wee hour business ingenuity, I just hate the end result.

I go away for a few hours, and the topic has shifted to pizza. Can't we wait until Saveur and NYT write weak articles about it?

[Lesley C]

I believe I said "obvious" special treatment.

I remember one glaring example. I was reviewing a very well-respected, old French restaurant. It was late lunch and the place was empty save for two tables, mine and a table of three regulars. We ordered a full meal and a couple of wines by the glass. The waiter hardly greeted us, and throughout the meal, was really just going through the paces. But when it came to the other table, it was smiles, handshakes, two extra dessert choices not listed on the menu, glasses of Cognac on the house, good byes at the door, helping on with coats and so on. Walking out the door with no one offering even a measly “thank you come again,” I was amazed -- insulted even. I have no problem with discreet favours such as favourite tables, an extra amuse, or an added scoop of sorbet on the dessert. But please, don't gush over the regulars and treat the rest of us like ex-cons. Heaven knows, we could be restaurant critics.

And I'm not so sure about a restaurant's ability to overextend itself being limited. In fact I completely disagree. Lxt, do you or have you worked in a professional kitchen? If so, did you ever get a request for a VIP order? Do you know the difference between a regular order and a VIP order? The world, that’s the difference.

Imagine you’re a chef/owner and a well-known critic has just arrived in your restaurant. Now, you have a huge bank loan and your food cost is high, so you're maybe just breaking even (or just on the edge going under and losing your house).

Tell me, do you really think you'll just hum a few bars of Que Sera Sera, and carry on as usual. Or, do you think you'll make sure that every plate that heads to that table is not the best goddamn plate you've ever assembled. I'd say the latter. As a reviewer I've seen it happen. When I worked as pastry chef in France and was faced with a GaultMillau critic, I was so petrified the dessert wouldn't be four-star perfect that my hands shook like crazy and I practically peed my pants (I was a very conscientious pastry chef).

So I think having performed both these tasks now -- that of a chef faced with a reviewer and as a reviewer facing a chef -- that I'm allowed this opinion. Say what you want, but in my experience, anonymity matters. A lot.

And by the way, I also like the places that treat everyone like a king. That's the way it should be.

PS: Sorry to -- again -- get this thread off topic.

[Aurora]

BTW there really is nothing better than a hot dog and a beer while attending a baseball game.

We tend to pack food for a visit to Shea, so I'm not sure we can agree on this.

Bux - what you speak of is the classic tailgate; an American fusion of picnicking and the backyard barbecue that is directly tied to sports. It represents yet another culinary subculture and is worthy of its own thread. For our UK friends, it is akin to something that you might do when Oxford and Cambridge race on the Thames.

I love tailgating, and I always did it with family and friends before games at County Stadium (**sniff**may she rest in peace). I still do it before games at Lambeau Field and Soldier Field (sometimes that means grilling when the mercury falls into the negative). Tailgating is practically law in Green Bay. There the practice is taken to new lengths, and there is a special circle in hell for anyone caught grilling a hot dog (or dishin' up potato salad made with Miracle Whip, for that matter). Remember, where I come from, brats are king.

We do not disagree in the least.

There is one feature that is required for authentic tailgating--a venue with a massive parking lot where one can practically tailgate in the shadow of the stadium. Shea, Lambeau, Soldier's Field, The Late County--parking lots, parking lots all! :laugh:

I watch baseball and eat hot dogs at Wrigley. That's just what's best, and there is nothing like it. Wrigley barely has a sidewalk around it let alone a parking lot. Tailgating in the shadow of Wrigley would mean that I would have to set everything up where Clark and Addison intersect. That's just not possible. Short of being killed, I would be called several unsavory names, and it would happen repeatedly. I'm just not up for that. I guess I could tailgate in someone else's parking lot or on a side street, but that would defeat the purpose. Some stadiums just don't lend themselves to tailgating, so thank God for the beer and hot dog guys.

Did anyone have the opportunity to watch Nightline this evening? It hit all the points that Saveur and NYT sadly missed. It linked baseball, hot dogs (sorry burgers), and apple pie. It discussed nostalgia AND American history, culture and national identity. If you didn't see it, send away for the transcripts.

[Beachfan]

What do these White Castle burgers taste like?

Wow, the precision in Steve P's response is impressive, perhaps even frightening. I can't improve on it, I can only give an image.

My traditional response to what define's White Castle is

"Where else can you taste the same meal twice for 25 cents?" (or whatever it is these days).

[tommy]

"Where else can you taste the same meal twice for 25 cents?" (or whatever it is these days).

[beachfan, in a coy manner, tells us just how old he really is]

[John Whiting]

SteveP wrote

... a sandwich allows for the greatest statement of individuality yet everyone is equal.

That's a sweeping generalization whose broom gathers up a lot of suggestive associations. I've remarked before that the sandwiches now widely available in both the US and UK are much better and more imaginative than those sold on the Continent. In Paris, there were queues at Marks and Spencer waiting to buy sandwiches imported ready-made from England, which had arrived at 7 a.m. in huge lorries carrying nothing else. They illustrate Europe's moving towards the first part of your paragraph; namely, the growing prevelance of the short lunch break.

I wonder what will be the long term effect on fine restaurants? For those travelling abroad, it's generally easier to get luncheon than dinner reservations, and there's often a luncheon menu which is substantially cheaper. In toffee-nosed tourist meccas I sometimes go for lunch in order to avoid the clientelle who come in the evening and make their presence so ostentatiously evident.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I think that multi-culturalism had to be the biggest engine that drove sandwich culture. If you had a factory or office where people were likely to be from a half a dozen different European backgrounds, save for a few people from Asia or South America, what restaurant might it be where they can all eat lunch together? Aside from issues of socialization, which is a different problem in and of itself, the sandwich seems to be a simple solution. People of different backgrounds can sit next to each other and eat totally different meals yet somehow be the same in a funny way. The obtrusiveness of one man's meal, and how it smells alien to another is significantly surpressed once it's tucked away in that bread.

As for the long lunch, and this is related to the sandwich as well, commuting to work from long distances is the biggest enemy of a decent time taken for lunch. People who travel 1 hr 15+ minutes each way to work do not want to allocate more time to their lunch break. If anything, they want their day over with more quickly as it is likely that it's close to 7:00pm when they get home from their 9-5 job including stopping to buy something to eat for dinner etc. But someone who lives near where they work can allocate the time they save commuting into shopping for better ingredients. I'd love to see a study down by someone who cares more than I that tracks the decline in the quality of food, i.e., the dominance of the supermarket vs the small purveyor and how the population in urban centers shifted from inner city to the suburbs. Clearly the rise of the sandwich must go arm in arm with that phenomenon.

One of the things I like best about Paris is how the shops are open until 7:30pm. That period between 6:00-7:30 when people are out of work shopping for the evening dinner has amazing energy to it. In the provinces where they close a little earlier, it cuts the energy off too soon. Even a place like Cannes which is a bustling town shuts them down by law 7:00pm. All of a sudden the whole town dies and it's like someone sucked the air out of the place.

[John Whiting]

I think that multi-culturalism had to be the biggest engine that drove sandwich culture.

In London (maybe NY as well, I can't say) multiculturalism has hit the very form of the sandwich as well as the filling. More and more, including those available from supermarkets, start with pita bread, ciapatta, flat unleavened "wraps" of various sorts, bagels, lengths of bagette -- in fact, any form of bread that doesn't fall apart and will take a filling.

[LaNiña]

I just read something. Plotnicki, you've NEVER BEEN TO DIFARA??? Holy fresh mozarella, Batman. Let's go, immediately. I wanna watch you eat that slice for the first time. Who's coming?

And, for the record, I love white castle - burgers and cheeseburgers - with my whole heart.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Nina - I have a wheat intolerance. No more pizza for me. That's why no DiFara's.

[LaNiña]

Oy. How bad's the intolerance? One slice...it's worth the consequences.

[Rail Paul]

Saveur's hamburger issue has appeared on the check out racks in two local markets in NJ (Shop Rite in West Caldwell and Pathmark in Livingston). Saveur hasn't previously been displayed. It has been displayed in the marginally more upscale Kings Market for a several months.

It's located adjacent to the Martha Stewart Living, and below Gourmet and NJ Monthly.

[Fat Guy]

Holy fresh mozarella, Batman.

Di Fara doesn't use fresh mozzarella on pizza; only in the salad.

[Robert Schonfeld]

If there's a pizza field trip in the offing, may I ask to be included?

Has anyone ever had pizza in Italy? The current Gourmet reviews an Italian restaurant in LA (LA!) where the proprietor is said to make real Roman pizza, without saying what that is. To me, it's a very long, thin-crusted rectangle light on tomato, cut into smaller rectangles or squares, or it's "pizza bianca" - just cheese - often baked in the same way. The technique for stretching the dough into the long rectangle is tricky.

Further to an aspect of the debate at hand, is pizza "cheap eats", or high quality simple food, or both? Can eating simple food in a restaurant ever be fine dining? Do others consider it very interesting to learn the nuances of producing simple food that may also be cheap eats?

[LaNiña]

Sometimes he does, when he can't get the italian buffalo one. Seen it with my own eyes. He's even handed me a plain chunk and told me where he got it - some place on Avenue U, I believe.

[Sandra Levine]

I would add, use of a wood-fired, rather than coal oven.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Eh, if I miss any pizza at all it ain't the NY style. It's a nice wood burning oven, thin crust, European style anchovy pizza that is available in any coast city from Marseille to Salerno.

[Sandra Levine]

If there's a pizza field trip in the offing, may I ask to be included?

Has anyone ever had pizza in Italy? The current Gourmet reviews an Italian restaurant in LA (LA!) where the proprietor is said to make real Roman pizza, without saying what that is. To me, it's a very long, thin-crusted rectangle light on tomato, cut into smaller rectangles or squares, or it's "pizza bianca" - just cheese -  often baked in the same way. The technique for stretching the dough into the long rectangle is tricky.

Nina, didn't you mention that DiFara's is not air-conditioned? For me, that means waiting until the fall.

[Jinmyo]

There's nothing like an anchovy pizza. The bad is very very bad. The good is supernal.