New York Times

[Steve Klc]

I wish The Times found the room to post all of their restaurant reviews online. Surely there is more room online than in the New Jersey print edition. That seems to be a legitimate complaint, no?

Jhlurie--your point about "ego" if more restaurant reviewers were trained chefs is an interesting one worth exploring elsewhere and so, too, the analogy to certain media or arts critics as failed novelists or directors. I'd have to bring up my favorite movie "reviewer" Stephen Hunter, a writer and film critic of the Washington Post. He is much more than an accomplished newspaper writer, however--he's an acclaimed and successful novelist--and his extended essays are treats as well as his movie reviews. Would he be as critical--as perceptive--if he wrote about books rather than film? I wonder if that wouldn't bring us back to Steve Shaw and his argument that perhaps restaurant critics and food writers should merge and not be so narrowly defined or artificially separated.

Chef or reviewer: either the quality of the work is good or it isn't?

[Fat Guy]

I agree, Steve, and I'll go a step farther: The Times treats its New Jersey, Connecticut, et al. readers as second-class citizens when it refuses to put those reviews on the Web and refuses to allow Corcoran and Cook to assign stars. It is condescending Manhattan-centric behavior at its worst, which is going to seem doubly extra-hypocritical to anyone taking a gander at that big New York Times office building in New Jersey.

As for the quality of the work, I agree it's critical. It's not the only consideration (for example a restaurant reviewer who accepts bribes can't get away with it by saying "but my reviews are really good!") but it's the one that matters most in most cases.

[TCD]

chopjwu:

I wouldn't condemn a food writer for not having any formal food background.

???????!!!!!!!! Are you serious?

Restaurant reviews are written for diners not chefs and managers.

I want my reviewer to be passionate about the whole dining experience not simply knowledgable about the cooking techniques reflected in the food presented. Years of experience as a fine diner is more valuable to me in a reviewer than years spent in schools and kitchens.

Those who are truly passionate about fine dining have an appreciation for all aspects of the experience. Although they may lack first hand experience regarding menu design, food preparation or front house management, they can teach more than a few things to those in the business about the product that should be presented.

[tommy]

additionally, from what i've seen on board likes this, chefs, cooks, and restaurant employees are not exactly the most gifted writers. it would be painful to have to read a review from most chefs every week.

[Rosie]

Restaurant reviewers write about their experiences at a restaurant. Two reviewers may be at the same restaurant the same night and have two different opinions of the food. I have always enjoyed Mr.Corcorans reviews and find him to be very thorough in his descriptions and most of the time I agree on his appraisal of the restaurant. Actually, I have returned to restaurants that I initially didn't care for after reading his reviews and found them to be to my liking. I value his opinions and have enjoyed many good meals because of his reviews. goodngood4u are you in the restaurant business?

[Lreda]

additionally, from what i've seen on board likes this, chefs, cooks, and restaurant employees are not exactly the most gifted writers.  it would be painful to have to read a review from most chefs every week. 

Present company included.

But I just blame it on my new laptop. Works in my mind.

[tommy]

additionally, from what i've seen on board likes this, chefs, cooks, and restaurant employees are not exactly the most gifted writers.  it would be painful to have to read a review from most chefs every week.  

Present company included.

But I just blame it on my new laptop. Works in my mind.

of course. you know, i couldn't wait to get home tonite because i thought this might offend some folks here. obviously it wasn't meant to, and i'm glad you took it that way.

ok, i feel better.

[Lreda]

Offend, think not. We have backbones as long as you don't "eff" with the food we cook. Tommy, don't forget the majority of us that are in the business are still guys that didn't want to have normal 9-5 jobs. That's why we all dropped out of college, partied and learned how to cook.

And quoting my kid " Dad, you do it for the chicks.

That's why I love my kids.

[tommy]

Tommy, don't forget the majority of us that are in the business are still guys that didn't want to have normal 9-5 jobs. That's why we all dropped out of college, partied and learned how to cook.

having been friends and having many friends in the industry, this fact is not lost on me. at all.

[khao]

Tommy's about as much of an engineer as I am. Which is not at all.

[tommy]

Tommy's about as much of an engineer as I am. Which is not at all.

but i can play one on egullet.

[cookandwife]

One for all ,all for one.

[goodngood4u]

I can't imagine why you think a restaurant reviewer should be trained as a chef. Restaurant reviewers are not chefs and chefs are not restaurant reviewers.

Please, don't put words in my mouth. I was replying to the quote that said "no formal food backround" I didn't say he had to be a chef, manager, culinary school grad etc. Just educated in food and I don't get the impression that he is when I read his reveiws. It just seems like the guy really likes fried calamari. Thank You

[ngatti]

Wow!, goodngood4u certainly jumped in shooting. However I thought that he/she tried to make one very good point. Unfortunately it was obscured by the loudness and perceived rudeness of his post.

The one valid thing he touched on was power. Being a restaurant critic for a large market publication confers a great deal of implicit and explicit power. Because of this power, I submit that restaurant criticism is very serious work. It has the power not only to make careers and firmly establish fledgling businesses, but to also destroy or, at best, set back those careers and businesses. Hence the work of a restaurant critic, IMO, should never be taken lightly. To be consigned to a back page fluff entertainment section in no way diminishes the power and potential of a regular critic. People tend to read them and people expect (rightfully so) a skillfull accounting of the dining experience. The professionals amongst us should demand one.

This does NOT mean that a critic must have a fully developed sense of culinary operations or a thorough knowledge of nuts and bolts restaurant front and back of the house ops. All it means is what TCD has put so succinctly:

I want my reviewer to be passionate about the whole dining experience ...Those who are truly passionate about fine dining have an appreciation for all aspects of the experience.

This and the ability to write well may be all that is required. Let me also add to the mix, a healthy and inate respect for the power that is wielded by the hand that holds the pen.

That said, I'd like to add that I have great respect for the writing of Mr. Corcoran. I feel comfortable reading his reviews. I garner a sense of culinary and dining competence from them. Is he truly competent? I dunno. Do I know him? No. Nor have I eaten in many of the restaurants that he's criticized. How then do I draw such an obviously ill-informed conclusion about him? Through the quality of his writing. He conveys, through the printed word, a sense of the dining passion that TCD alluded to. The food shows through. It is encapsulated within the confines of a few column inches every other Sunday.

Many restaurants are truly deserving of their bad reviews. But the bad criticism, IMO, should be flowing from the passion that TCD described. Not some pedantic tripe forced onto the page merely to fill it up.

Thanks for listening

Nick

[khao]

Everyone is saying how the New York Times does its readers a disservice by not having New Jersey restaurant reviews online. Admittedly, they aren't easy to find, but if you do a search on Corcoran and Restaurant, you get a list of all his reviews. Possibly there's a way to get to them from the menu system, but I haven't found it yet. It looks like the Frog & Peach review hasn't been posted yet.

Here are a couple of links, although the older reviews are probably already archived (note that NY Times online registration is required):

http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?...754C0A9649C8B63

http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?...755C0A9649C8B63

http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?...755C0A9649C8B63

[Rachel Perlow]

Since khao didn't mention it, the links above go to the reviews for the following restaurants:

Saigon Republic, Englewood

La Focaccia, Summit

East, Teaneck

Thanks khao! I'm glad these haven't been lost to the void.

[Steve Klc]

Do either of you know if these are recent additions online, perhaps in response to comments here on eGullet--or is the full archive of reviews going back more than a few weeks available as well? Is the review of the Ryland Inn online? Khao--do you know if they've always been available online--just obscured?

If it were, why wouldn't the Ryland Inn have linked to it?

[Fat Guy]

I'm quite surprised to see those reviews on the Times site. I may be getting senile but I remember running those exact searches many times in the past and coming up with nothing. I do wonder if these are recent additions, and if they are I see it as progress. Still, if you go to the site index or the dining section or pretty much anywhere else you can't find these reviews and they don't have stars.

[khao]

... and they don't have stars.

They don't have stars, because NJ reviews don't have stars. But at the bottom they do have all the information a normal review would contain, such as rating (Poor, Fair, Satisfactory, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Extraordinary), atmosphere, recommended dishes, etc.

The Ryland Inn review can be found here:

http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?...752C1A9669C8B63

It's important to note that when searching, you have to change the default from "30 days" to get more than a few reviews.

[Fat Guy]

They don't have stars, because NJ reviews don't have stars.

That ain't no reason!

[Steve Klc]

Someone just ask Corcoran--surely he's aware of the answer as to whether his reviews have been online on the Times site. If the reviews were online--surely some restaurant would have linked to a review and someone in New Jersey would have been aware of this.

Besides Khao, and besides now.

(I know, surely, surely.)

[ngatti]

Is there any way to provide a link to Karla Cooks review of the frog and the peach?

That's the one that started this thread. I'm curious to see what got chop and others so het up.

Nick

[Fat Guy]

http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?...755C0A9649C8B63

[Steve Klc]

Nick--her writing ability and the issue of whether this group of seven outing was her only meal at the restaurant aside--she stated there was another visit after the first visit--I read the review and I think I'd have to get more of a feel of the other restaurants Cook and Corcoran have rated "Very Good, Excellent, or Extraordinary" and their price points in order to assess it and in order to address David's post. Seemed like a typical Grimes "one star but should have been a two star" review--but what we're supposed to infer from the lack of stars and the verbal ranking of "very good" I am not sure.

The review was all about the food--which she seemed to like quite a bit--but nary a hint about the restaurant experience, nothing about the pacing of the meal, the attentiveness of the service, professionalism of the host or sommelier, the ambience, decor, cool bathrooms if those are your thing, lighting, intimacy, etc. In all, a very weak assessment of the "total" experience and there is nothing in this review to inspire me to trust her perfunctory wine list assessment as "extensive and expensive."

If I were the chef--I wouldn't be upset because this clip will help him get a better job or a raise; if I were the restaurant owner--I'd likely be a little more upset that so much was not mentioned or not appreciated--assuming those bases were covered. They may also be trying to do without a real pastry chef--and if so, they only have themselves to blame.

In short, I wonder if her other reviews also lack nuances of the overall experience, and merely feature how individual dishes were composed or how they worked on her palate. I like more nuance than "clean tablecloths."

Even in the dessert category--Cook felt two desserts were pretty darn good--but was this enough to demote the ranking to "very good?" Someone would have to convince me there are better desserts in NJ at the high end than I think there are for this to be such a damning indictment.

I have a feeling David Santos may turn out to be more accurate in his opinion of the place than Ms. Cook's "very good" ranking. Since my parents live in Middlesex county, I just may check this place out soon. After we check out restaurant Nicholas of course.

But Grimes has made a two star ranking much tougher for restaurants to achieve. Remember Ilo was one of the few three stars awarded last year. David--do you really feel this restaurant merits three stars on the Grimes NY restaurant scale? Do you feel Grimes would have even given it two stars--your personal feelings for your friends who work there aside?

Or do you feel it merits an "excellent" on the "ambiguous not quite the same thing as a star ranking" for NJ?

[chopjwu12]

All friends aside do i think the frod and the peach would have recieved 2 or 3 stars from grimes? i do agree about grimes being a tougher scorer in NY. I think its alot harder to gain three stars in the city then to get 3 STARS oh wait i mean excellent in nj. So in my opinion do i think the frog and the peach would get three stars if it were in ny. I think the food would make it but i dont think the service is quite special enough for it to be considered a 3 star ny restaurant. Now dont get me wrong thr service is very good but when you look at the three star plaves in ny is it the same probably not. But do i believe they deserve an excellent in nj you bet your ass. I think they are one of the best places in nj. But i am only one man. Everyone else has to go and come up with thier own opinion.