4000 years old Noodles found in China !

[pcbilly]

This may be old news to some of you but since we have all these noodles dishes made by hzrt8w, I though I will bring it up here.

First, NO, this is not the cousin of thound years old Eggs.

Chinese archeologist had discovered some 4000 years old late Neolithic noodles made of millet on the Lajjia Yellow River archaeological site.

Millet is one of the "five grains" of ancient China.

A Prof. Lu explains that prior to this discovery the earliest written record were from the East Han Dynasty around 25-220 AD.

This noodles is similar to the modern “La Mian” hand pull noodle which is made by repeatedly pulling and folding the dough by hands.

Hopefully this discovery will settle the debate of the origin of noodles.

What do you think ?

[hzrt8w]

Yeah, I've heard about it too.

The only question I have is: Are those noodles still edible? (don't let them go to waste)

[touaregsand]

Clifford Wright's posts in particular

Hopefully this discovery will settle the debate of the origin of noodles.

What do you think ?

Things can be developed independently of eachother. The Berbers when they were rolling couscous into little pasta grains, then rolled them into semolina balls or rolled them between their fingers into little noodles were not taught this by the Chinese. The Sicilians were introduced to Pasta (durum wheat Pasta) by the Saracens from the Maghreb. Of course the Sicilians and Italians took it to entirely different levels than Maghrebi pasta dishes.

The scholarship is there on the origins of durum wheat semolina pasta. Finding millet noodles in China does not dispute them.

Who did what first is of minor and passing interest to me. I'm more interested in how ingredients traveled and morphed in different locations.

[pcbilly]

Yeah, I've heard about it too. 

The only question I have is:  Are those noodles still edible?  (don't let them go to waste)   

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I see future episode of "Good Eat with Ah Leung" featuring "4000 Thoudand Noodle with Thousand Years old Egg"

[pcbilly]

Clifford Wright's posts in particular

Hopefully this discovery will settle the debate of the origin of noodles.

What do you think ?

Things can be developed independently of eachother. The Berbers when they were rolling couscous into little pasta grains, then rolled them into semolina balls or rolled them between their fingers into little noodles were not taught this by the Chinese. The Sicilians were introduced to Pasta (durum wheat Pasta) by the Saracens from the Maghreb. Of course the Sicilians and Italians took it to entirely different levels than Maghrebi pasta dishes.

The scholarship is there on the origins of durum wheat semolina pasta. Finding millet noodles in China does not dispute them.

Who did what first is of minor and passing interest to me. I'm more interested in how ingredients traveled and morphed in different locations.

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touaregsand:

Like I said before, this may not be new to some of you but I didn’t realize that there was a big discussion on eGullet about the origin of pasta already.

But it seems to me, after quickly reading some of the posts that the original discussion were more about whether or not Marco Polo brought noodles back to Italy from China (He probable didn’t) and also the bulk of the discussion occurred before this news came out.

Furthermore, that discussion was not about noodles as an innovative food technology for preserving and storing grains in 2000 B.C. China.

The article you mentioned by Clifford Wright ( http://www.cliffordawright.com/history/cou...s_history.html) made a narrow definition of noodles as Macaroni – a hard wheat based pasta and therefore eliminated the Etruscans, Roman and the Chinese by definition and credited the Arabs as its original source. Since wheat did not arrive in China until about second millennium B.C. from Near East and not wildly cultivated until Tang Dynasty, (A.D. 618 to 907), I guess I would not be able to disagree with this definition.

But we do need to recognize that he was talking about the spread of a specific type of hard wheat noodle - Macaroni from East Africa to medieval Italy and NOT about the innovation of preserving grains into dry noodle forms. The dry noodles of Lajia DID survival for four thousand years.

By his own account, the first written account “might be” (quoting him) macaroni did not happen until 1188 in Italy, by then the Chinese would had been making fairly sophisticated long noodle for about Three thousand years.

With the link of Silk Road from China to Near East to the West as far back ago as Roman times, the significance of this find should not be just a passing interests to anyone who is interested in how ingredients traveled and changed in different places at different time.

Disclaimer: this stuff of ancient history, East or West, is definitely outside my realm of knowledge or intellectual interests.

So please, someone wiser, join in!

Edited October 28, 2005 by pcbilly (log)

[hzrt8w]

..... by then the Chinese would had been making fairly sophisticated long noodle for about 3000 thousands years.

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Wow... I didn't know that apes made noodles too!

(Sorry William... couldn't resist! )

[Laksa]

Wow... I didn't know that apes made noodles too!

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Sure they did. The noodles they made were known as si mian (丝面).

[pcbilly]

..... by then the Chinese would had been making fairly sophisticated long noodle for about 3000 thousands years.

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Wow... I didn't know that apes made noodles too!

(Sorry William... couldn't resist! )

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hzrt8w:

I didn't say I could count.

I didn't say I could ssppeellll.

I didn’t'say I know anything.

I only said that I could eat.

Now with all the eatable Chinese restaurants closing around here, my desperation has driven me into this forum and I have found myself drooling over virtual noodles dish.

I only have spaghetti left in my brain.

[SuzySushi]

Wow... I didn't know that apes made noodles too!

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Sure they did. The noodles they made were known as si mian (丝面).

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Beautiful!!!

[pcbilly]

Wow... I didn't know that apes made noodles too!

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Sure they did. The noodles they made were known as si mian (丝面).

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Laksa:

It must be hard for someone named after a noodles dish to resist a good noodles discussion?

Does si mian 丝面 sound the same in Cantonese as 失面?

If it is, I guess then the joke is on me.

[Laksa]

Laksa:

It must be hard for someone named after a noodles dish to resist a good noodles discussion? 

Does si mian 丝面 sound the same in Cantonese as 失面?

If it is, I guess then the joke is on me.  

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Billy, I wasn't thinking at all of 失面 when I wrote that. Please don't take it the wrong way! It was intended as a pun on simian (of or relating to apes).

[AzianBrewer]

I bet you the archaeologist is thinking of Dan-Dan noodle at that time!

[touaregsand]

With the link of Silk Road from China to Near East to the West as far back ago as Roman times, the significance of this find should not be just a passing interests to anyone who is interested in how ingredients traveled and changed in different places at different time.

I think I came off as a bit cranky. Apologies.

Wheat cultivation has been discussed too. I'll find the links and elsewhere for you when I have some time.

[pcbilly]

Laksa:

This is truly clever and funny.

Just to show you that my Chinese language part of the brain still process before my English language part even after all these years.

I never even suspected that it was a pun in English.

Don't worry; no offense taken.

We all need a good laugh on a Friday afternoon.

[Hector]

According to my newsource for this, the noodles where made of different kinds of grass and not millet... I doubt that it will be good posting a link to it, here. Hence it is in Swedish.

And the pasta of Italy was NOT brought by the saracens.. Maybe the kind of couscous you can find in Sardinia and Sicily ("Sa fragula" and "cuscus trapanese" for example). But italian pasta as we know has other origins.

Pasta originated in the ancient Roman empire, where the great chef Apicius left a recipe for "laganum" being the prototype gratine style dish for lasagna with a filling of shrimp, chicken, eggs and other ingridients. Laganum-noodles where flat dough layers, just like todays lasagna.

I don't think you can get one unified origin of the pasta making. Pasta is found everywhere in the world, even my country Sweden has native pasta sorts that isn't from Italy or China. It's just a really simple technique of boiling bread dough instead of baking it.

Edited October 28, 2005 by Hector (log)

[pcbilly]

touaregsand:

No apology is necessary; I am not suggesting that is the end of the debate and the Chinese won.

I think it is reasonability to assume that many peoples at different time came to this idea of putting starchy grain mash into boiling water for food and learn to dry it for long-term storage.

It is interesting to observer how human histories are intertwined by observing how ingredients changes from one place to another.

[pcbilly]

According to my newsource for this, the noodles where made of different kinds of grass and not millet... I doubt that it will be good posting a link to it, here. Hence it is in Swedish...

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Hector:

The two varieties are foxtail millet (Setaria italica) and broomcorn millet (Panicum miliaceum). Check the links in the next post.

[pcbilly]

For those people that are interested in seeing a picture of the noodle, there is a great one in the National Geography Link, it is about 50cm long.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...12_noodles.html

The following BBC site talks about the Lajia site as the Pompeii of China, some real interesting stuffs here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4335160.stm

The Chinese archeologist had published their paper in the prestigious science journal Nature.

It should make a good read.

Maybe I can get my kid to do a science project on it.

Everyone, have a nice weekend.

[chefzadi]

According to my newsource for this, the noodles where made of different kinds of grass and not millet... I doubt that it will be good posting a link to it, here. Hence it is in Swedish.

And the pasta of Italy was NOT brought by the saracens.. Maybe the kind of couscous you can find in Sardinia and Sicily ("Sa fragula" and "cuscus trapanese" for example). But italian pasta as we know has other origins.

Pasta originated in the ancient Roman empire, where the great chef Apicius left a recipe for "laganum" being the prototype gratine style dish for lasagna with a filling of shrimp, chicken, eggs and other ingridients. Laganum-noodles where flat dough layers, just like todays lasagna.

I don't think you can get one unified origin of the pasta making. Pasta is found everywhere in the world, even my country Sweden has native pasta sorts that isn't from Italy or China. It's just a really simple technique of boiling bread dough instead of baking it.

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Hector that was most definately covered in the pasta thread and the articles it pointed to. If you have something to add to the scholarship please do.

As for your second point. I am working on a piece about with Algerian recipes and how dough is used for flat bread and different pasta shapes. I do not believe that the technique was transported/learned somewhere from China into the Maghreb. You have a bunch of people playing with dough and certain cooking techniques for a few thousand years....

There are Amazight words for pasta that are not related to Arabic words.

Edited October 29, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[Hector]

Hector that was most definately covered in the pasta thread and the articles it pointed to. If you have something to add to the scholarship please do.

As for your second point. I am working on a piece about with Algerian recipes and how dough is used for flat bread and different pasta shapes. I do not believe that the technique was transported/learned somewhere from China into the Maghreb. You have a bunch of people playing with dough and certain cooking techniques for a few thousand years....

There are Amazight words for pasta that are not related to Arabic words.

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1. Ok, No problems. Posted in the wrong one.

2. Just my point. Very interesting about the Amazigh/Berber having their own pasta culture.

[chefzadi]

A quick reply. You can do a quick google of Sicily and Saracens introducing durum wheat pasta and come up with a number of Sicilian sources that accept this.