Institute of Culinary Education

[Gastro888]

I'm unsure if I am posting in the right forum but since the ICE is located in NYC, I figured this would be a good place. If I'm in the wrong place, apologies for my mistake!

I came across the ICE while doing a random search for culinary schools in NYC. They have a culinary management program that interests me as I want to be in the food/restaurant industry but I do not want to work a line as a chef. I've great respect for chefs but I know myself having grown up in a restaurant and seen my father work a line - it's not what I want to do.

The program looks well-thought out and planned and I was curious to know if anyone has completed the program and what they think of it. Has it helped you find a path in the food industry? Is it worth the investment? What is ICE's reputation in the culinary world? Any thoughts, feedback and/or comments are greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your help!

[mikeycook]

I graduated from the ICE's culinary management program in September of 2004. I was coming from a background in the internet and financial services, only having worked in a couple of restaurants through high school and college. I was primarily interested in setting up my own food business.

The program is split between people who want to run their own businesses and people who want to become restaurant managers. The program I took (the evening program taught by Brian Buckley) used a business plan as the center of the course (i.e. developing a plan for a business you'd like to own). The program covered all of the major components of restaurant design, management, and ownership (food safety, staffing, menu design, etc.) and that ultimately tied back to the development of our individual business plans. Ultimately, I found the program to be very practical and useful. I am currently working on starting my own retail specialty food operation.

The morning program, taught by Steve Zagor, I understand as being a little more financially oriented than the evening program. Steve is a former (or current) CPA and has excellent in-depth knowledge of restaurant financials. If that is your primary interest, I would suggest talking to him about the morning program. Brian has extensive experience as a restaurant consultant and has consulted in a lot of NY restaurants, so he is really good at giving real-life examples of the type of things you will need to deal with as a restaurant manager and/or owner.

As far as ICE's reputation, I think it is difficult to rank the Culinary Management program specifically because it is somewhat unique among the city schools. As far as the regular culinary programs go, my perception is that ICE is less highly regarded than the French Culinary Instititute, but not by a lot (depends on who you ask). Regardless, I thought it was a good program and I would recommend it, whether you take it by itself or you take culinary or pastry as well.

All in all, I would recommend the program, but it is definitely worth setting up an interview to see if the program is right for you. Good luck!

Edited October 26, 2005 by mikeycook (log)

[Gastro888]

Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it! Wow, great detail.

I'll be visiting the school in Nov. I'm concerned about how legit the institution is...I know, that's terrible of me to say. I had a rather bad experience with a cooking school in Florence where they turned out to be nothing but a profit-making machine instead of a real institution where you actually LEARN something.

[flinflon28]

I graduated from the ICE culinary program in June and I found it to be a great experience. Thoughtful instructors, great ingredients and all of the benefits Manhattan offers as a campus. While I did not take the management program the friends I know who did felt that it all depends how much you put into it. It is very easy to pass with minimal effort (but why bother) and there are those who hustled and felt it was worth every penny. These folks speak very highly of Steven Zabor in the morning program.

I.C.E was recently given a 100% approval rating from some national accreditation organization. Don't remember the name but I know they are very proud of it and it is a huge "to do" in raising their profile. They will give you more details about that when you visit I'm sure.

[newguy]

You will get out of Culinary school what you want to. The information is great if you wish to take what they are giving you. The schools now are FULL of students, a large amount making career changes. A majority of these students I believe watch to much of the food network and think they will graduate school and make $9 million a year, so they don't take their education seriously. This leads to a portion of the classes with people who don't care, which should have ZERO effect on you if you are serious about what you want to do.

I graduated from ICE in 2002 and have been working in fine dining kitchens ever since. my class was almost completely full of people uninterested in being in that classroom. Completely irrelevant to me, I studied, paid attention, did my work and disregarded what the others were doing, and I guarantee you that most of them are not working in any type of food related job today.

ICE, like EVERY other culinary school (famed CIA included) are money machines now. They accept everyone (CIA has more strict guidelines for acceptance) who wants to pay the money. So go in and get your money's worth...

[Gastro888]

Thanks for the feedback, y'all!

Well, if I am investing my time and at 12K for the tuition alone, you better bet I'm going to take everything seriously. I'll be dammned if I let anyone get in my way of my education or career change!

Since they are accepting anyone who can pay the tuition, doesn't that affect the quality? Hey, the top schools didn't get that way by just accepting anyone who could fork out the tuition, ya know.

I, like everyone else, am inspired by Food TV but don't want to be famous. I want to work with food and be in the food industry as it's my true passion and having a business background, I feel this program is a good match for me. I'm quite excited to go visit next month and was curious to know what I should look for in particular. Anything I should look out for in the school? Any markers for a good school? A bad school?

[zeitoun]

You will get out of Culinary school what you want to.  The information is great if you wish to take what they are giving you.  The schools now are FULL of students, a large amount making career changes.  A majority of these students I believe watch to much of the food network and think they will graduate school and make $9 million a year, so they don't  take their education seriously.  This leads to a portion of the classes with people who don't care, which should have ZERO effect on you if you are serious about what you want to do.

I graduated from ICE in 2002 and have been working in fine dining kitchens ever since.  my class was almost completely full of people uninterested in being in that classroom.  Completely irrelevant to me, I studied, paid attention, did my work and disregarded what the others were doing, and I guarantee you that most of them are not working in any type of food related job today.

ICE, like EVERY other culinary school (famed CIA included) are money machines now.  They accept everyone (CIA has more strict guidelines for acceptance) who wants to pay the money.  So go in and get your money's worth...

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I fully agree with the above, I am presently enrolled in the culinary program and will graduate in February. We are at this point already half way through the entire curriculum and it is true that a majority of students in the class don't seem very concerned with whatever happens after graduation. Actually, most of them aren't even sure they want to work in a professional kitchen or do something food related. For the price you pay, I find this quite amazing. But this is true for any school (even at the CIA or FCI according to many friends in the industry). Some students care and some really don't. It is all about what you as student try to get from the experience and the school itself hasn't much to do with it.

Personally, I already had my externship set up in a four star restaurant here in NY 2 months after my program started, not because the school helped me get in, it was rather the product of my own work and effort. When school started I just took it upon myself to go out there and trail in as many kitchens as I could until I found a kitchen I liked.

By the way, in that four star kitchen, 90% of the cooks have not even heard of ICE. You'll realize quickly that what school you come from really doesn't matter much, it's all about how you carry yourself and how much effort you put into your work. That is the only thing a high end restaurant or chef will look at.

[newguy]

When you go in, check out the curriculum, and make sure you find the information relevant and interesting. See if you will be able to trail at restaurants in the FOH, or you can just do it yourself. Call anywhere and tell them you are a student in a management program and would like to trail with your GM for a few days...

You may also want to be a server at a place you find interesting. Most places probably won't hire you as a GM straight out of school.

Besides there is no education like the one you will receive once you begin working.

I went through school, and honestly found the work "easy" then got to work and realized I knew less than zero.

[Gastro888]

Thanks so much for the feedback, everyone, I really appreciate it.

I am so surprised that people aren't very interested in their education. Considering they're paying 12K for it, why would they want to waste their money and time by not taking it seriously? Is this common in culinary schools?

I am looking forward to checking the school out soon. Right now I'm debating if I should couple my trip with a short visit to NYC or just do the train up and back in the same day. The lure of eating in the city is a siren's call that I can't ignore! Decisions, decisions...

[Malawry]

Gastro, I didn't go through a program like you're describing, but I wanted to mention that it's true with any sort of education that you get out what you put in. The school will work as hard for you as you make it. Most of the students in my own class in culinary school actually did care about the subject matter and worked at it. I've followed up with about 70% of my class (everybody you talk to knows what a few other people are up to) and 2.5 years post-graduation most are still doing something in a culinary field. That being said, not all of those people are working in restaurants--but most of those who aren't never really wanted to in the first place. They're working as culinary educators, they're directing hospital food services, they're supporting local food-oriented charities. Some, like me, cobble together their income through a mix of food-related work (in my case, writing, teaching and catering).

I think that if I was a restaurant-oriented person, I'd have a very different opinion of the importance of culinary school than I do given the way my career has evolved. I rely heavily on my alma mater, L'academie de Cuisine. I've found jobs through them, I call them for advice, I regard my experience there as the most valuable tool on my resume. Their importance will understandably lessen to me as my career continues to grow, especially if I end up leaving the DC area (L'academie is pretty focused on the DC metro area). They gave me what I needed to get moving from a writer-editor white-collar job to the career I dreamed about.

Specifically regarding ICE, where do you want to settle? I know you currently live in DC. Do you want to move to NY or just go there for school? If you don't plan to move there permanently, spend some time investigating what ICE does for its alumni. Some schools like CIA and J&W have amazing national networks to match their national reputations and can help connect graduates with professionals across the nation. These connections are super-important--you can use those fellow alums to trail places, which naturally leads to learning more about the industry and often job offers. I don't know if ICE has alumni services and networks as well-developed and recognized as all that--maybe they do. Make sure you talk to whoever the alumni contacts are and grill them on these issues. I would have gotten a lot less out of L'academie professionally if I hadn't developed a rapport with the alum coordinator there.

Many people think they'll change careers and do something food-oriented but then realize they're not cut out for the work once school gets going. It's not that unusual. The smarter ones will drop out before they lose all their tuition payments--a couple did from my class. There's a big disconnect between the image of the culinary industry from the outside world and the reality of what happens in the trenches. But you already know all that, being from a restaurant family.

Oh, one other thing: have you looked at NYU's programs? I know they offer some sort of interesting business-related food studies program--I think it's a master's degree which might work well for somebody like you with a background in business. What are the other programs you are considering?

[Gastro888]

Hello all!

Well, I got back from my visit to ICE today. Their facilities are quite impressive. They occupy about 5 floors in an office building on the West Side. I found their two professors of culinary management to be knowledgable and personable as well. They have a placement rate of 80% and an alumni network - I will need to investigate further to compare it to CIA's and J&W's program. (Thanks for the tip, Malawry!). As for relocating, hey, living in the Big Apple for a bit wouldn't hurt me.

I was impressed with the program and now I've walked away wondering should I do culinary management and culinary arts as well.

I know the admissions office is keen on having people double "major" as it were - hey, it is a business after all. I'm more concerned from a career aspect. Since I do NOT want to work a line (great kudos to those who do!), would it still be beneficial to me to invest the additional time and money in a culinary arts degree when my ideal job would be say, a buyer for Dean and Deluca or opening my own retail shop?

[mikeycook]

I think it really depends on who is doing the hiring, but for the most part the management program should be sufficient for the types of jobs to which you are applying.

Ultimately, if you want to open your own retail shop, the question is "Do you have the money or do you need funding?" If you need an outside source of funding, your culinary resume is definitely something to think about (assuming you don't have a rich uncle who'll set you up). That being said, I think at that point your professional experience will be much more relevant than your culinary degree. Serving as Head Buyer for Dean and Deluca will get you much further than an ICE culinary degree.

Also keep in mind that taking both programs at the same time will be very intensive. If you have to work as well, it might be a lot to handle. If you really want to do both, you might just schedule one program while you are taking the other so you can take advantage of reduced tuition (as long as you sign up while taking another program, a 10% discount for tuition to the second program should apply).

Edited November 2, 2005 by mikeycook (log)

[Gastro888]

Actually, one of my dream jobs is to be a buyer for someplace like Dean and Deluca!

I am concerned that I might be shortchanging myself if I choose NOT to do the culinary arts program long with the culinary management program. Funding is a concern but I'd have to get a loan regardless. Does anyone know of someone who's doing both programs? I would not be working at all while I'm doing this, just attending classes while I'm there. The schedule would be:

Culinary Arts

M-F 8-12

Culinary Management

T, Th, F 1-5

I have no idea what to expect and how difficult this may be. I know it's definitely not like taking standard university courses. Since I don't want to work the line, would it be a waste of time? But then again, I would walk away with alot of knowledge.

Thanks for all your reponses and help!

[Curlz]

Since I do NOT want to work a line (great kudos to those who do!), would it still be beneficial to me to invest the additional time and money in a culinary arts degree when my ideal job would be say, a buyer for Dean and Deluca or opening my own retail shop?

←

Gastro--why not try to get a few informational interviews with the higher-ups at Dean and Deluca and other places that interest you? I think that it holds true for most professions that the viewpoints of a career can differ greatly from those who are actually walking the walk to those who are considering it. Chatting with someone who is working in the specific area you're interested in could be very enlightening, and most people are happy to speak honestly with someone who is considering a move like you are. You've got nothing to lose by asking...

[Gastro888]

Oh wow, stellar idea, thanks!

For those who have done ICE's Culinary Arts program - would you take the culinary management program in tandem or is that foolhardy?

[mikeycook]

There was one student in my class who was taking both and also working, so it's definitely doable, but preferably like you where you are not going to be working as well (because he was exhausted).

If I had the option of not working and I wanted to take both, I would take them both at the same time. The management program alone is not going to require all of your time.

[allister]

Oh wow, stellar idea, thanks!

For those who have done ICE's Culinary Arts program - would you take the culinary management program in tandem or is that foolhardy?

←

i took the arts program and worked part time. There were a number of students in my class that did not work and took both tracks as well as some that took both tracks and worked parttime some nites. If you have the ability to go to school and not work, and have the funding, i would suggest that you take both. The arts program will not only introduce you to cooking techniques, but also food handling and identification - items that i do not believe are addressed in the management course.

One issue that may arise if you pursue both tracks is fulfillment of the externship requirement. If management runs past arts, you will need to find a way to fit the externship around the management days, or wait to begin the externship after you have completed the management cycle.

Edited November 3, 2005 by allister (log)

[Gastro888]

Wow, food handling and identification. I didn't think of those aspects.

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

How did your fellow students handle the courseload of both management and arts? Was it too much? I saw the syllabus of the arts program, module 2, and was amazed at the amount of work the students had to do. On top of the management course, I'm surprised they had time to breathe.

Then again, would this be comparable to taking 4 university courses in one semester? I don't know - I was a good college student but this may be comparing apples to oranges. (No pun intended)