New Generation Gins

[shantytownbrown]

Has anyone seen the new Beefeater 24 yet?  I just learned about it, but can't find it anywhere in Los Angeles yet.

←

their website has it only in the UK if i am reading it correctly

www.beefeater24.com

would be interested to try, but fear a gin marketed for the vodka masses, please correct me if someone has tried and enjoyed...(besides i just picked up regular beefeaters(1.75L) for 23.99$(us) after $8 mail-inrebate..how can you beat that price point)

[Ufamizm]

Has anyone tried Port of Barcelona gin? It just became available in the market here in Atlanta, although I have yet to see it anywhere. Its made by the same people that make the Obsello Absinthe.

[Scout_21]

I just saw a new(ish?) gin at bevmo. Has anyone tried Zephyr gin? I prefer to buy minis to try something out but no luck at this time around

[Dan Perrigan]

Hi there. I'm a huge fan of Plymouth -- which I believe is essential for a proper Aviation. But since it's expensive, I'm always on the search for the perfect mid-range mixing gin. I usually use Tanq, Beefeaters, or Brokers and when it runs out, choose the next bottle based on what's on sale.

Last week I found myself in Pennsylvania at one of the larger state-run liquor stores and saw the giant ("Family Size"?) 1.75L bottle of New Amsterdam gin for a whopping $18. I figured that for $9 per 750ml I'd give it a try.

Well... It's Really citrusy, and not very "ginny". I can barely detect any juniper. In fact, it's practically an orange-infused vodka.

So my question is this: Has anyone found a good use for this gin? I figured the orange notes would be helpful in a Satan's Whiskers, and it seemed to have tuned out nicely...until I mixed a second one using Beefeaters so that I could compare them. The Beefeaters one was noticeably better -- the gin was noticeable (and yummy). The New Amsterdam one tasted like a Screwdriver (with lots of orange bitters) by comparison.

I'm sure there have got to be some recipes that will work with it (at least I hope so -- I have 1.749 liters left of it). Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Dan

[KD1191]

So my question is this: Has anyone found a good use for this gin?

I haven't had the product, but from what you're describing, I would try recipes calling for Orange Gin.

Maybe, the Flying Dutchman from Ted Haigh's "Vintage Spirits and Forgotten Cocktails"

2 oz orange gin

juice of 1/4 orange

juice of 1/4 lemon

3 Drops Angostura Bitters

Alternately, use it as a base to do some infusions...

Edited January 16, 2010 by KD1191 (log)

[slkinsey]

Hi there. I'm a huge fan of Plymouth -- which I believe is essential for a proper Aviation. But since it's expensive, I'm always on the search for the perfect mid-range mixing gin. I usually use Tanq, Beefeaters, or Brokers and when it runs out, choose the next bottle based on what's on sale.

It's always amusing to me to hear Tanqueray and Beefeater spoken of as thought they are second-tier products. In fact, I would suggest that they are almost universally acknowledged as the two pinnacles of the London dry gin style. Don't let the price difference with Plymouth (actually not a London dry gin) fool you... as recently as 2-3 years ago, Plymouth was significantly less expensive than Tanqueray and Beefeater. The increase in price was, I am given to understand, a deliberate move on the part of Plymouth to increase the perceived status of the brand (much in the same way that vodkas are often "ranked" according to price in the minds of most consumers). For my part, this has sadly led to a serious decrease in home consumption of Plymouth because, while I think it's a great product, the softness makes it less versatile than the "ginnier" London dry gins.

Last week I found myself in Pennsylvania at one of the larger state-run liquor stores and saw the giant ("Family Size"?) 1.75L bottle of New Amsterdam gin for a whopping $18. I figured that for $9 per 750ml I'd give it a try.

Well... It's Really citrusy, and not very "ginny". I can barely detect any juniper. In fact, it's practically an orange-infused vodka.

Strangely, the vast preponderance of "new generation" gins deemphasize the juniper component -- many to the point where it is barely detectable -- and bring citrus or "exotic herb/spice" flavors to the forefront. Whether or not a product whose clear primary flavoring is not juniper can properly call itself a "gin" is a serious question in my mind, and I usually find myself answering "no." I'm still waiting for a "new generation" gin to come out that goes in the opposite direction. I'd love to have one that's a real juniper bomb.

[mkayahara]

It's always amusing to me to hear Tanqueray and Beefeater spoken of as thought they are second-tier products. In fact, I would suggest that they are almost universally acknowledged as the two pinnacles of the London dry gin style. Don't let the price difference with Plymouth (actually not a London dry gin) fool you... as recently as 2-3 years ago, Plymouth was significantly less expensive than Tanqueray and Beefeater. The increase in price was, I am given to understand, a deliberate move on the part of Plymouth to increase the perceived status of the brand (much in the same way that vodkas are often "ranked" according to price in the minds of most consumers). For my part, this has sadly led to a serious decrease in home consumption of Plymouth because, while I think it's a great product, the softness makes it less versatile than the "ginnier" London dry gins.

Again, I hasten to point out that this may be true in places where you can get full-strength Tanqueray and Beefeater, but here, where they're both watered down to 40%, Plymouth is both brighter and fuller flavoured than either one, which is why I stock it as my standard go-to gin. The fact that the price difference is less than a dollar only makes that decision easier.

Strangely, the vast preponderance of "new generation" gins deemphasize the juniper component -- many to the point where it is barely detectable -- and bring citrus or "exotic herb/spice" flavors to the forefront. Whether or not a product whose clear primary flavoring is not juniper can properly call itself a "gin" is a serious question in my mind, and I usually find myself answering "no." I'm still waiting for a "new generation" gin to come out that goes in the opposite direction. I'd love to have one that's a real juniper bomb.

Isn't the lack of a juniper-forward flavour what makes it a "new generation" gin? I mean, if it were a real juniper bomb, it'd just be a London Dry. For instance, where would you class Junipero? I've only ever tried it once, but I seem to recall finding it pretty juniper-forward at the time.

My suspicion is that too many "new generation" gins are intended to be used in Martinis - and "point the bottle in the direction of France"-style Martinis at that - so they tend to get lost in anything where there are other flavours involved. It's a shame, really.

[thirtyoneknots]

Yeah Junipero is a notable exception to the otherwise very upsetting trend. On the one hand, gin comsumption is up, which is on principle a positive. On the other hand, many of these new brands accounting for that consumption are hardly worthy of the G word, their flavors are so mild. Many of them have their own merits, but I don't think of them as products that most gin lovers go out of their way to acquire.

In a related note, I've read before that the Plymouth we get today may or may not necessarily resemble the Plymouth of yore. I know the proof is different, but I often wonder if the old stuff was appreciably different in any other way. So many recipes back then specify it that it makes one wonder, though I wouldn't consider modern Plymouth to be so distinctive from a London Dry that you couldn't substitute one for the other with confidence.

[Kohai]

Sam, why do you say that Plymouth is not actually a London dry? Just curious - I haven't heard that before.

[slkinsey]

It's always amusing to me to hear Tanqueray and Beefeater spoken of as thought they are second-tier products. In fact, I would suggest that they are almost universally acknowledged as the two pinnacles of the London dry gin style. Don't let the price difference with Plymouth (actually not a London dry gin) fool you... as recently as 2-3 years ago, Plymouth was significantly less expensive than Tanqueray and Beefeater. The increase in price was, I am given to understand, a deliberate move on the part of Plymouth to increase the perceived status of the brand (much in the same way that vodkas are often "ranked" according to price in the minds of most consumers). For my part, this has sadly led to a serious decrease in home consumption of Plymouth because, while I think it's a great product, the softness makes it less versatile than the "ginnier" London dry gins.

Again, I hasten to point out that this may be true in places where you can get full-strength Tanqueray and Beefeater, but here, where they're both watered down to 40%, Plymouth is both brighter and fuller flavoured than either one, which is why I stock it as my standard go-to gin. The fact that the price difference is less than a dollar only makes that decision easier.

Don't get me wrong... Plymouth is great product. But it's a little sad, I think, if due to your local market Plymouth is the fullest-flavored gin you can get your hands on. Because, in the range of gins, the flavoring of Plymouth is not particularly emphatic. More to my original point, however, the OP lives somewhere where full strength Tanqueray and Beefeater are available.

Strangely, the vast preponderance of "new generation" gins deemphasize the juniper component -- many to the point where it is barely detectable -- and bring citrus or "exotic herb/spice" flavors to the forefront. Whether or not a product whose clear primary flavoring is not juniper can properly call itself a "gin" is a serious question in my mind, and I usually find myself answering "no." I'm still waiting for a "new generation" gin to come out that goes in the opposite direction. I'd love to have one that's a real juniper bomb.

Isn't the lack of a juniper-forward flavour what makes it a "new generation" gin? I mean, if it were a real juniper bomb, it'd just be a London Dry. For instance, where would you class Junipero? I've only ever tried it once, but I seem to recall finding it pretty juniper-forward at the time.

I would argue that the lack of a juniper-forward flavor profile makes it "not gin." For example, 27 C.F.R. § 5.22[c] says that gin "shall derive its main characteristic flavor from juniper berries" (emphasis added). I don't have a problem with brands of gin that want to use additional or distinctively different secondary botanicals, even at a fairly high level. But at the point where you can't tell if there's juniper in there or not, it ceases to become "gin" and becomes "something else."

My suspicion is that too many "new generation" gins are intended to be used in Martinis - and "point the bottle in the direction of France"-style Martinis at that - so they tend to get lost in anything where there are other flavours involved. It's a shame, really.

My suspicion is that these products are designed for flavored vodka drinkers who don't particularly like gin, but like the idea of drinking gin.

[evo-lution]

Sam, why do you say that Plymouth is not actually a London dry? Just curious - I haven't heard that before.

It is by law (PGI) classified as a Plymouth Gin and which has a different flavour profile from your typical London Dry gins in the way that it is not as dry and tends to be slightly softer.

[mkayahara]

More to my original point, however, the OP lives somewhere where full strength Tanqueray and Beefeater are available.

Fair enough. I guess I was reacting more to your initial comment:

It's always amusing to me to hear Tanqueray and Beefeater spoken of as thought they are second-tier products.

What I'm saying is that, in some markets, they are second-tier products - by definition, because the 40% version of Tanqueray is a full step down from the full-proof version - which might account for some of the times you hear it said.

[A]t the point where you can't tell if there's juniper in there or not, it ceases to become "gin" and becomes "something else."

Like "flavoured vodka"?

My suspicion is that these products are designed for flavored vodka drinkers who don't particularly like gin, but like the idea of drinking gin.

Agreed, especially in many of the most recent cases. I'm not sure I feel that way about a product like Hendrick's, which to my mind is a flavourful, but idiosyncratic, gin, but certainly it's true of New Amsterdam.

[slkinsey]

Sam, why do you say that Plymouth is not actually a London dry? Just curious - I haven't heard that before.

It is by law (PGI) classified as a Plymouth Gin and which has a different flavour profile from your typical London Dry gins in the way that it is not as dry and tends to be slightly softer.

Yep. What he said.

Plymouth and London dry gins are fairly similar today, it must be said, but one wonders how true that was in the past. I suspect that there has been not insignificant stylistic drift in both. For all intents and purposes, most any gin that is not genever or Old Tom would be considered a London dry gin or a Plymouth gin. Here's where it gets tricky: Plymouth gin is defined by law as being produced only in Plymouth, England. Other than that restriction I am not sure there are any stylistic requirements for Plymouth gin. Theoretically, if a gin identical in flavor to Tanqueray were distilled in Plymouth, England, it could call itself a "Plymouth gin."

As for the style... Since Plymouth is the only gin distillery in Plymouth, England, their house style more or less defines the style for the entire category of Plymouth gin. Whether the features of modern-day "Plymouth gin the brand" are representative of "Plymouth gin the historical style" is a meaningful question. There were once, apparently, a number of gin distilleries operating in Plymouth, but they were all bought up and consolidated under the present brand. Clearly there must have been a range, but within that range there must have been some common features. It's too bad there aren't more Plymouth gins to constitute a meaningful categorical style. I wonder if a company selling a "Plymouth-style" gin would be able to do that, similar to "Trappist-style" beed. Of course, since Plymouth is also the name of the only company selling Plynouth gin, which the competing product would be promoting by virtue of such a description, this seems unlikely.

The result is that, for dry gins in production today, there is one brand in the category of Plymouth gin, and everything else could be called a London dry gin. This can be a bit confusing, however, because I have to believe there are any number of gins out there that could be considered closer to the Plymouth style (which, as Adam says, is generally considered to mean "less dry, softer, less emphatically flavored") than the London dry style. Nevertheless, they're still all called London dry gins except for the Plymouth brand.

[Kohai]

Interesting. Thank you!

[Dorek]

Tried a martini with Tanqueray 10 last night (3:1, Noilly Prat, couple dashes of Regan's Orange Bitters). Wow, I don't get this gin at all. The martini...sucked. And that is a recipe that works extremely well with Beefeater and regular Tanqueray. Maybe I was just somehow off my game, or maybe it has to do with having used a frozen pint glass instead of my regular mixing tin. But the dilution and temperature seemed right--it was more like the botanicals just sucked with vermouth! The bottle of Noilly Prat is only a couple weeks old and has been refridgerated since I opened it, so it's not a problem with the vermouth.

I made a decent Negroni last week with the 10, but that's probably just because the (delicious) combination of sweet vermouth and Campari totally overpowered the gin.

Only reason I even bought Tanq 10 is that I got a $100 gift card to Ralph's from work and decided to spend it on booze. I was hoping to pick up Plymouth but the grocery store doesn't stock it, so I went with Tanq 10 since I figured I'd never spend my own money on it. Looks like I was right--I never would.

(Also, not sure about the rules regarding bumping old threads, but in an older gin thread people were talking about how much the price of Plymouth has raised. At my local liquor store it's 38 bucks, and Beefeater is 18! Holy shit! Only 27 bucks at DrinkupNY.com and 30 at Bevmo, though, but I have a policy of trying to avoid Bevmo as much as possible. Their customer service is ass and the chances of them actually having something I want are astronomically low for some reason. If I go there wanting "rye whiskey" they'll have something, but if I want something specific they are almost always out.)

[Chris Amirault]

I have to believe there are any number of gins out there that could be considered closer to the Plymouth style (which, as Adam says, is generally considered to mean "less dry, softer, less emphatically flavored") than the London dry style. Nevertheless, they're still all called London dry gins except for the Plymouth brand.

Started in 2003, Damrak Amsterdam gin is a good example, much more like Plymouth than not.

Meanwhile, I'm fiddling around with a bottle of Bluecoat, and I'm finding the comments about its trickiness to be true. Two citrusy Savoy "B" drinks have worked nicely, though, the Biffy and the Biter.

[KatieLoeb]

Chris:

I'll stand by my comments back HERE. I wouldn't call it "tricky" as much as I'd simply say it's a citrus forward gin, and predictably goes well in those applications. I love the Bluecoat. Not just because it's made right here in Philly. Not just because it's made and marketed by friends of mine. But because it's REALLY GOOD gin. Just not at all in the traditional London Dry mode.

If you're feeling particularly ambitious and feel like making a small batch of lavender simple syrup, try some Bluecoat in my Provençal Martini (aka the Panty Drawer because it smells like lingerie sachet )

Provençal Martini

2.5 oz. Bluecoat gin

1 oz. Lillet

.5 oz. fresh lemon juice

.5 oz. Lavender simple syrup

two dashes Fee Brothers Lemon bitters

Lemon twist

Shake and strain into a chilled cocktail glass. Garnish with a fat lemon twist that has had the oils expressed over the cocktail.

Lavender Simple Syrup

1/4 cup dried lavender

1 cup sugar

1 cups water

Bruise the lavender in a plastic bag with a rolling pin. Add sugar to water and bring to a boil, stirring until sugar is dissolved. Add bruised lavender leaves and simmer for 5-10 minutes. Cool overnight and strain.

This drink was a favorite amongst the judges at the Bluecoat Bartender Battle in April 2008, but I won for "People's Favorite" with the Front Stoop Lemonade, a Thai Basil and Lemon Cordial lemonade with Bluecoat and soda.

Like I said. Bluecoat is a no brainer with other citrusy stuff in the glass. I think it might even be delicious in a Gin-Gin Mule, if far more subtle than a London dry. That might be worth a try too...

Edited January 24, 2010 by KatieLoeb (log)

[brinza]

I like Bluecoat a lot and have used it in several applications, whereas my reaction to New Amsterdam upon first tasting it was "What could you possibly do with this stuff?" I wonder if the differences in proof (Bluecoat being 94 and New Amsterdam being 80) have anything to do with people's response to them.

[mkayahara]

Bumping this question:

Has anyone seen the new Beefeater 24 yet?

←

Because this remark:

it's a little sad, I think, if due to your local market Plymouth is the fullest-flavored gin you can get your hands on.

...is so true. So I need to find a better option than making special flights out of the country for the express purpose of picking up a litre of Tanqueray at duty free. Anyone have any thoughts on whether Beefeater 24 is worth the $40 price tag? Or is it, in fact:

a gin marketed for the vodka masses

[evo-lution]

Anyone have any thoughts on whether Beefeater 24 is worth the $40 price tag?

$40 is about £25 right? I'd say it's definitely worth that, I really like the stuff, not as bold as regular Beefeater but it compensates with flavour elsewhere. I'd say it has a more complex citrus top-note (Beefeater for me is all about the orange, whereas the 24 has grapefruit, lemon and orange) , with a nice balance of juniper, and tea evident on the finish.

The fact that they use Japanese sencha and Chinese green tea means that there is no astrigency which you will get from some teas.

A gin for the vodka masses? Not at all. And I'm not necessarily sure that I agree that some new generation gins are doing this. If anything, they're giving more diversity to the category and allowing people to try gin away from just a regular G&T with lime.

From my experience, those that claim they don't like gin in actual fact don't like the taste of tonic. From a bartending perspective, these newer gins give me the opportunity to bridge the gap between neutral vodka and a juniper heavy gin like Tanqueray for those who think they don't like gin.

Just the other day in fact, my fellow bartender was asked what he could make with a flavoured vodka. He made a Hachimitsu (one of my drinks on the menu at Yatai*, Martin Miller's, fresh orange, fresh lemon, honey syrup). The guest loved it. And is now a gin drinker. Job done.

*goes to start another thread

Edited January 25, 2010 by evo-lution (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Chris:I'll stand by my comments back HERE. I wouldn't call it "tricky" as much as I'd simply say it's a citrus forward gin, and predictably goes well in those applications.

Fair enough: I really like it, too. I said "tricky" because I didn't think it worked well in the Monkey Gland I made; then again, that's an unfair proving grounds for me.

[KatieLoeb]

Having read through that prior thread, I think your issue with the Monkey Gland is the grenadine and not the gin. Try the half hot cooked with some pomegranate molasses/half cold shaken combined method and get back to me....

[Chris Amirault]

Continuing with the Bluecoat project. I had a slug of it a couple of nights ago when I was snacking on Triscuits and kirbys, and the combination got me thinking that akvavit might be an interesting foil. Think Martinez, think Morgenthaler's Norwegian Wood, think summer on the deck, think strapping Danish American actor, think...

The Viggo Cocktail

1 1/2 oz Bluecoat gin

3/4 oz akvavit

3/4 oz sweet vermouth (M&R)

1/2 oz lemon

-1/2 oz simple

2 dashes Angostura

half a kirby cucumber

Muddle; shake; double strain; very small lemon twist over top; discard.

A big twist would obliterate the interesting aromatics carried by the cuke. As for the akvavit, I used Aalborg, though I'm eager to bump it up with Linie or Krogstad.

[jneu]

Rehorst Gin from Great Lakes Distillery in Milwaukee is definitely worth a try. I think it fits the bill as a "new generation gin". It's unlike any other gin I've tried. I just got word that besides Wisconsin it is now available in Illinois, Nebraska, and Pennsylvania.

[Yojimbo]

I feel it's worth seconding KL's comments on Bluecoat, definitely one of the better new-gen gins out there, unlike some of the others it's got a full, complex flavor profile (rather than a "flavored vodka" with just enough juniper to please the Feds) even if it's not a traditional London Dry, and a great match for citrus flavors, like she said.

On the Wisconsin end, has anyone tried Death's Door gin? Jneu, can you give more detail regarding Rehorst -- I almost scored a bottle during my last trip to Milwaukee, but didn't have time.

Finally, because it hasn't been mentioned for a while, probably because it's rarer than Euro-recipe Amer Picon, I'll speak again on the unique, yet still true to traditional gin taste of Whitley Neil. In fact, now I know what I'll be mixing with tonight . . . .