Katz’s Delicatessen

[Fat Guy]

As far as I can remember, I've never rejected a pastrami sample at Katz's. Also, I've noticed over the past few years that the sampling process has become routinized and is no longer truly an approval process unless you assert yourself. In other words, they start to make your sandwich and they give you a couple of slices while they're at it.

In days of yore, I always opted for waiter service at Katz's. In the 1980s and early 1990s, it seemed to me that the majority of serious fressers were in the waiter-service section, although some old-timers insisted on counter service. Then all the good Jewish waiters disappeared -- seemingly at the same time -- sometime in the mid 1990s. So I switched to counter service. But over the past year or so I've gravitated back towards waiter service. The servers seem to be better now than they were at their all-time low in the '90s; one woman even seems to be a deli veteran. You don't have to wait as long, you don't have to schlep, and as far as I can tell the guys behind the counter try to perform well for the waiters. You can still specify your pastrami (extra fatty, extra lean, etc.) and they still listen. So I think I'm off the counter for awhile.

[Fat Guy]

Bloviatrix: yes and no. While the term glatt has a technical meaning, about which you are correct, the phrase "glatt kosher" is also widely used in common language to refer to the overall level of kashruth at an establishment and not just the way the animals' lungs have been inspected. A "glatt kosher" establishment will, in my experience, always be under strict orthodox supervision and will always be shomer shabbat.

[menton1]

Yeah, now I am confused. I've seen advertisements for the Deli King where they claim to be certified kosher, even having the name of the Rabbi whose supervision they are under. Yet they're open on Saturday. I think I'll just ask them when I'm in there again.

My orthodox friends have always advised me that this is really "Kosher Style". In other words, the food would be meat/dairy separated, and the meat would come from a kosher source. But observant Jews would never patronize the place.

[Pan]

As far as I can remember, I've never rejected a pastrami sample at Katz's.

That surprises me somewhat. I reject samples on occasion, though usually not. The last time I rejected a sample, it was too gristly.

[bloviatrix]

Bloviatrix: yes and no. While the term glatt has a technical meaning, about which you are correct, the phrase "glatt kosher" is also widely used in common language to refer to the overall level of kashruth at an establishment and not just the way the animals' lungs have been inspected. A "glatt kosher" establishment will, in my experience, always be under strict orthodox supervision and will always be shomer shabbat.

FG, the joke in the orthodox community is that most places that tout themselves as Glatt Kosher are open on saturday - travel down Union Turnpike or Queens Blvd. and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's passively understood that if a place is under orthodox supervision, the meat will be glatt. That's why I felt a need to explain what Glatt truly is.

There are a limited number of kosher meat processors in the US, and across the board they use orthodox shechita and the meat is glatt. Hence, even a place that it open in the sabbath will sell glatt meat. What they do to the meat, once they get hold of it, I can't comment on.

[Fat Guy]

FG, the joke in the orthodox community is that most places that tout themselves as Glatt Kosher are open on saturday - travel down Union Turnpike or Queens Blvd. and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Interesting. That has not been my experience in Manhattan with places calling themselves "glatt kosher." I'm not aware of any places that use that designation but are not shomer shabbat. For example, Prime Grill goes by "Prime Grill Glatt Kosher Steakhouse and Sushi" and is closed on shabbat. Tevere 84 makes the same claim and is shomer shabbat. Maybe there are counter-examples, I don't know.

[jordyny]

A store that is open on the Sabbath can sell glatt kosher meat. The meat will still be just as kosher.

What to me is very misleading about delis is that sometimes they say they are kosher style but not really kosher.

A restaurant that serves Glatt Kosher prepared food must be closed on sabbath. Simply for the fact that Glatt meat(all kosher meat) has to be slaughter by a Jew but glatt has to have closer supervision. Also the food is only kosher if a jew turns ont he oven. I think I am right.

I went to a really religous yeshiva high school and we learned the talmud that discusses just matters like this.

[Pan]

Am I the only person who thinks the marketing term "kosher style" is nonsense because food is either kosher or treif? Would kosher beef bacon be called "treif style"?

[Fat Guy]

Great idea. We should open a "treyf style" restaurant.

[Fat Guy]

Most orthodox Jews I know don't accept the certification of Hebrew National on the basis that it is not "up to community standards" in terms of the rigor of its supervision. Some have cited the acquisition of Hebrew National by ConAgra as the point at which they felt supervision risked becoming too lenient. This may very well be an issue of perception only: I haven't heard any actual proof that Hebrew National is cheating or being too lenient, and such proof may not exist. Some also find Hebrew National's advertising to be objectionable.

[Fat Guy]

Hi, is this the Katz's pastrami thread?

Let's cease the kashruth discussion on this thread before Sam Kinsey figures out what's going on and throws us all in jail for veering too far off topic.

Two things: 1) I've made contact with some rabbinical organizations in the hopes of drumming up an authoritative guest for a kashruth Q&A; and 2) You all are welcome to start a new thread for discussion of kashruth, but please don't post anymore about it here.

[VivreManger]

To get us back on track. Last week I was in LA and managed half a pastrami at Langer's. I would have ordered the whole sandwich, but I had been to Roscoe's Chicken & Waffles for breakfast and that cramped my style, among other parts of my body.

Unfortunately my Katz's experience is decades old so that basis of comparison is denied me. However I will be in NY next month and hope to get downtown to try a pastrami sandwich. My more recent basis of comparison is Montreal smoked meat, with samples from Schwartz's, Snowdon Del and the Main.

Langer's is much less spicy and tangy than Montreal meat, hardly a surprise. It was also noticably more tender. The overall taste was excellent. The meat was flavorful and moist.

As you know Langer's does not have counter service, but I was able to make my preference for medium fatty, not Hollywood lean, made know through the waitress and the sandwich arrived as ordered.

Some claim that Langer's is the best in North America. I would not go there, but the rye bread is good -- better than the standard issue in Montreal. The mustard choices are better.

The ideal sandwich would be Montreal smoked meat spiciness with Langer's tender juiciness and superior accompaniments. On the other hand, the pickles are better in Montreal.

Next month, Katz's, God willing. In March I am contemplating a smoked meat March madness marathon -- hitting all the major purveyors for a taste-out on and off the Main (Montreal talk for St. Lawrence). Anybody else interested?

[greenfield]

However I will be in NY next month and hope to get downtown to try a pastrami sandwich.

Personally, I would pick 2nd Avenue Deli over Katz's anyday. I think 2nd Avenue Deli has much better consistency, better table service, and a friendlier atmosphere. If you just want to run in and grab a quick sandwich to go, then Katz's is probably the fast choice. If you want better pastrami or corned beef, I think 2nd Avenue Deli is the best. And if you have to run, you can always call ahead an order anyway.

Plus, 2nd Avenue Deli has great tongue. :-)

[menton1]

There is a certain "je ne sais quoi" about Katz' pastami because it is hand sliced. I don't know why it is, but that hand slicing gives a flavor and texture that can't be matched with machine slicing.

[greenfield]

There is a certain "je ne sais quoi" about Katz' pastami because it is hand sliced. I don't know why it is, but that hand slicing gives a flavor and texture that can't be matched with machine slicing.

I thought that the 2nd avenue deli had hand sliced pastrami and corned beef as well. Does anyone know one way or another?

[tjaehnigen]

I went to Katz's my very first time about two month ago and I had the pastrami and I enjoyed it quite a lot. JMHO

[MHesse]

Another visit to Katz's tonight. Unlike my last trip on a Saturday afternoon, the place was relatively empty and one could walk right up to the counters and be served. I ordered a large takeout order to partly feed a group of 12. Got 3.5 pounds of pastrami, 2 quarts matzo ball soup, 2 pounds potato salad. Forgot to get latkes! Note: cooked, sliced hot pastrami is $20.30/pound. Uncooked bulk pastrami (2 to 4 pounds) is $10.50/pound.

But they only charged me $45 for the pastrami, the cashier forgot to charge me for the tater salad, so we did fine.

Nice just fattier than lean pastami this time. Our hostess would have preferred fattier (not to mention those latkes), but then again we would have had pizza and chinese delivered if I hadn't gone to Katz's so any complaints were subdued and ignored by me.

[VivreManger]

Yesterday I got to Katz's for the first time in over twenty years.

In the Schwartz's, Langer's, Katz's, pastrami poll, my vote goes to Schwartz's. While it is not the most tender, it has the most taste.

More details to follow, if I find the time.

[menton1]

Yesterday I got to Katz's for the first time in over twenty years.

In the Schwartz's, Langer's, Katz's, pastrami poll, my vote goes to Schwartz's. While it is not the most tender, it has the most taste.

More details to follow, if I find the time.

Never heard of Schwartz nor Langer; Are they in New York?

[VivreManger]

Yesterday I got to Katz's for the first time in over twenty years. 

In the Schwartz's, Langer's, Katz's, pastrami poll, my vote goes to Schwartz's.  While it is not the most tender, it has the most taste.

More details to follow, if I find the time.

Never heard of Schwartz nor Langer; Are they in New York?

Sorry for the obscure references. Langer's is the best Jewish deli in LA. Schwartz's is the legendary smoked meat emporium in Montreal.

[hollywood]

Yesterday I got to Katz's for the first time in over twenty years. 

In the Schwartz's, Langer's, Katz's, pastrami poll, my vote goes to Schwartz's.  While it is not the most tender, it has the most taste.

More details to follow, if I find the time.

Never heard of Schwartz nor Langer; Are they in New York?

Sorry for the obscure references. Langer's is the best Jewish deli in LA. Schwartz's is the legendary smoked meat emporium in Montreal.

I'm not sure I'd agree that Langer's is the best deli in LA (there are others), but it definitely has the best pastrami in town.

[kurl]

Stopped by Katz's last night, and I can confirm that it's inconsistent. I'm a huge fan, and have had many great sandwiches there, but yesterday's was stuck in the "good" category.

Still wildly better than 2nd Avenue and Carnegie.

[Pan]

Kurl, did you taste a sample first? Occasionally, I reject a sample and they get another slab of meat for me.

[kurl]

Irritatingly, a sample was only given to me after the person making my sandwich had seemingly committed himself to my piece of meat -- it just wasn't my day. I still love Katz's to death.

Edited January 11, 2004 by kurl (log)

[Pan]

You can still decline the meat, in which case, the counterman takes the meat out of the sandwich and makes up a different one for you. I give $1 extra in addition to my usual $1 tip in that situation.