Are microbrews dead in PA?

[Tkrup]

OK...I have a friend who is seriously thinking of opening a small brewpub/cafe in Northeastern PA, and after many...many trips back and forth through the area, my impression is that he's going into a financial tailspin because of lack of interest. He's very focused on his craft (the beers are awesome, and he's taken awards at the Great American Brew Festival), but maybe a bit blinded by ambition. My question to my fellow egulleteers in PA is this; Can an artesianal brewery making small batches be successful? Is my friend doomed? Should I help him and invest? Your thoughts, slings and arrows are appreciated.

[coquus]

PBS in my area had a special on about ten microbreweries in PA, and there wasn't much that really got me going, except one place in (I think) Lewisburg, that I could never find that did really autentic German beer in small batches. I was really disappointed there. Good luck to your friend. I love my local Ellicottville Brewing Company, Ellicottville, NY, they do a good job for a good price in my opinion, and have recently opened at the old Barker Brew in Fredonia.

[cdh]

What is his business model? Is he looking to be a brewpub selling on premises, or is he looking into bottling and getting distributed?

Brewpubs seem to be doing reasonably well in southeastern PA... we have several Iron Hill locations that each brew on site, two Sly Fox brewpubs, the Independence brewpub in Center City PHL has been in business for a while, the Rock Bottom in King of Prussia brews on site and, while it has changed ownership, it still is there and brewing.

You do raise an interesting question: Has the brewpub thing made its way north? I can't think of any brewpubs in PA to my north, and I'm at the northern fringes of PHL's sphere of influence (though the Ship Inn in Milford, NJ is up close to Easton latitudes, though just across the river.) My homebrew shop has recently opened an outpost in Bethlehem, so that is a sign of interest in small batch beer in the Lehigh Valley.

Lew Bryson's PA Breweries book would probably answer my question about brewpubs north of the PHL burbs... really should pick that up.

[Buckethead]

A small brewpub making just enough beer to serve their pub customers can certainly succeed: Iron Hill and Brewer's Art (in Baltimore) are good examples. I don't know if the northeast is the best area for it, but I'm no expert.

If anything, I think Philly may be saturated with great beers. Victory, Dogfish Head, Stoudt's, Yards, and a bunch of other great brewers are all nearby and are available on tap all over the place.

What about selling his beer directly to bars that cater to the micro-brew crowd, to build up a name for himself? That would allow him to test the market without making as much of a cash investment as opening a restaurant would. Then if he wants to open a brewpub later on, he will have a customer base ready for him (if the beer is as good as you say, of course).

Edited July 5, 2005 by Buckethead (log)

[Lisa1349]

Does the Pocono brewery still make beer on site? They've been there for at least 10 years on 611 a couple miles before Camelback. That would be the only place of it's kind up there.

[Rich Pawlak]

Does the Pocono brewery still make beer on site? They've been there for at least 10 years on 611 a couple miles before Camelback. That would be the only place of it's kind up there.

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That brewpub is called Barley Creek, and it is still going strong. It even gets some of its beers on tap in Philly; sometimes the Grey Lodge will have a Barley Creek beer on tap. Barley Creek Black Widow is one of my personal faves.

As for a brewpub working in NE PA, where I grew up, there have been several failures, and no successes beside Barley Creek. Brewpubs in Scranton and Wilkes Barre have folded, and none are on the horizon. Diminishing population, and a an entrenched blue collar mindset are likely reasons that brewpubs can't compete with the endless number of old style taverns that crowd the region. But this is a good question to ask author Lew Bryson on his website, www.lewbyson.com.

[Lew_Bryson]

First, in response to your subject line, hell no. There's an explosion of high-end craft beer that's about to explode in western PA, and eastern PA is in real good shape. NEPA certainly could be better, but the failures that have happened there -- Black Rock, Hackett's, and Franconia -- were NOT because of limited appeal of artisanal beers. It just hasn't been done right yet. When it does, I've no doubt it will work.

There are all kinds of business models for brewpubs that have worked, and many that have failed. I happen to think that northeast PA COULD support a brewpub; Black Rock and W.T. Hackett's both failed through management problems, not lack of enthusiasm for the beer. NEPA has supported Elmer Sudds, Cooper's, and Moose's Par 4 for years, and the Arena Cafe is doing well now; Barley Creek has been mentioned already, and the Bullfrog is not that far away and doing just great.

It can definitely be done; what you need is an angle on the pub, not the brew. If your friend is willing to understand that the restaurant has to be as special as his beer, he's got a shot. For instance, an Old Forge pizza brewpub? Awesome, an idea that is just waiting to happen, and a brewpub that will suck people right off I-81.

What kind of beers does he want to make? If it's all Belgian styles, which are really popular with brewers, don't invest. Sorry, but the possibilities for Belgian-style brewpubs are really limited. All cask ales? Not gonna work. All German styles? Could be tough, with The Lion getting up to speed: they cranked out a couple of very nice German-style beers recently. But German styles are always popular. Straight-ahead American/English ales? Rock on.

Should you invest? Not unless your friend has an experienced restaurant person on board. That's necessary. Get plenty of capital together, enough to run for at least six months. Your friend is not going to make a salary for at least a year. It's NOT EASY. But it will work.

Tell us more.

[john b]

What kind of beers does he want to make? If it's all Belgian styles, which are really popular with brewers, don't invest. Sorry, but the possibilities for Belgian-style brewpubs are really limited. All cask ales? Not gonna work. All German styles? Could be tough, with The Lion getting up to speed: they cranked out a couple of very nice German-style beers recently. But German styles are always popular. Straight-ahead American/English ales? Rock on.

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I was wondering as I read this thread...does a brewpub need to make a "mass appeal" or "stepping stone" beer to get the Coors/Bud/Miller crowd in the door? Something that won't "offend" the bland beer drinkers, like Fat Tire or Flying Fish XPA?

[NulloModo]

I think Iron Hill Brewery has succeeded so well because it offers both great beer and great food (their shrimp lejon pizza is to die for). I go to the original location (Newark, DE thank you very much, not everything great has to come from Philly) quite often, and I can't get enough of either their beer or their food.

In England and elsewhere perhaps great craft beers are enough, but in the US to draw the craft beer crowd you need more than just great booze.

[Lew_Bryson]

I was wondering as I read this thread...does a brewpub need to make a "mass appeal" or "stepping stone" beer to get the Coors/Bud/Miller crowd in the door?  Something that won't "offend" the bland beer drinkers, like Fat Tire or Flying Fish XPA?

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You don't have to go too "dumb" on your mass appeal beer -- Victory's Lager is a good example, as is XPA, IMO -- but yeah, it's a good idea, almost a necessity, to have one. And you know what? I drink Victory Lager a lot myself, and it's surely not because it's a stepping stone. "More approachable" doesn't have to mean "watery and non-threatening."

[pennbrew]

Certainly a brewpub or microbrewery COULD succeed in NE PA, but it is one tough market and you'd be starting out with two strikes against you. Almost anywhere else in eastern or central PA would be better. Yes, as Lew mentioned there are some successful specialty beer bars, but the economic and age demographics of the region are lousy for microbrews.

I do have some background with what you're asking, feel free to email me if you wish.

Best of luck!!

---Guy

[john b]

I was wondering as I read this thread...does a brewpub need to make a "mass appeal" or "stepping stone" beer to get the Coors/Bud/Miller crowd in the door?  Something that won't "offend" the bland beer drinkers, like Fat Tire or Flying Fish XPA?

←

You don't have to go too "dumb" on your mass appeal beer -- Victory's Lager is a good example, as is XPA, IMO -- but yeah, it's a good idea, almost a necessity, to have one. And you know what? I drink Victory Lager a lot myself, and it's surely not because it's a stepping stone. "More approachable" doesn't have to mean "watery and non-threatening."

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I was being very careful not to use "dumbed down" in my original question.

I don't consider the beers I mentioned to be dumbed down, just easier to get a mass produced beer drinker to try. An example of dumbed down, as I'd define the term, would be a beer labeled Pale Ale or IPA, but with 50% of the IBU of a "real" PA or IPA. I don't know that I've ever come across something like this, but I'd guess they're out there.

[Tkrup]

First, in response to your subject line, hell no. There's an explosion of high-end craft beer that's about to explode in western PA, and eastern PA is in real good shape. NEPA certainly could be better, but the failures that have happened there -- Black Rock, Hackett's, and Franconia -- were NOT because of limited appeal of artisanal beers. It just hasn't been done right yet. When it does, I've no doubt it will work.

There are all kinds of business models for brewpubs that have worked, and many that have failed. I happen to think that northeast PA COULD support a brewpub; Black Rock and W.T. Hackett's both failed through management problems, not lack of enthusiasm for the beer. NEPA has supported Elmer Sudds, Cooper's, and Moose's Par 4 for years, and the Arena Cafe is doing well now; Barley Creek has been mentioned already, and the Bullfrog is not that far away and doing just great.

It can definitely be done; what you need is an angle on the pub, not the brew. If your friend is willing to understand that the restaurant has to be as special as his beer, he's got a shot. For instance, an Old Forge pizza brewpub? Awesome, an idea that is just waiting to happen, and a brewpub that will suck people right off I-81.

What kind of beers does he want to make? If it's all Belgian styles, which are really popular with brewers, don't invest. Sorry, but the possibilities for Belgian-style brewpubs are really limited. All cask ales? Not gonna work. All German styles? Could be tough, with The Lion getting up to speed: they cranked out a couple of very nice German-style beers recently. But German styles are always popular. Straight-ahead American/English ales? Rock on.

Should you invest? Not unless your friend has an experienced restaurant person on board. That's necessary. Get plenty of capital together, enough to run for at least six months. Your friend is not going to make a salary for at least a year. It's NOT EASY. But it will work.

Tell us more.

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My buddy makes all sorts of beers from Hefes to Belgian Triples to awesome IPAs and Brown Ales. His Porters and IPAs are probably my favorites, but he's got great range and rarely makes stuff that wouldn't stand up to a discriminating palate.