Vineyards are not farms!

[andiesenji]

In my opinion any place where things are grown for whatever reason, and whatever crop, that is a farm.

Flower farms, herb farms, wheat farms are essentialy the same as a vineyard because people take care to plant seeds or rootstock in a particular place and in a particular way to give it the best chance of prospering.

Fruit farmers grow apples, peaches, apricots and so on in orchards but the property itself is called a farm. Often other things are grown also, just as in many vineyards other plants are grown.

I remember touring one place near Napa that grew fields of lavendar and other herbs as well as having a lot of acreage with vines and a large grove of walnut trees.

I have a friend in upstate New York that owns a farm and part of it is leased for growing grapes and another part is leased for growing apples. She uses the rest for growing her own vegetables, keeps goats and chickens. She considers it a farm and is proud to call it so.

[Lone Star]

A farm is a piece of land (or water perhaps) devoted to agricultural purposes - period.

My question is - Why does it matter? Who cares? Call your operation whatever you want to.

Edited May 17, 2005 by Lone Star (log)

[Behemoth]

A lot of the corn around here goes into ethanol production. These lands shall henceforth be known as "gas fields".

[jsolomon]

I, apparently, must yield, because one of the two sources that I give linguistic fealty to (usually) has defined farm in the US.

God bless Google

As defined for purposes of the Census of Agriculture since 1978, a farm is any place that has, or has the potential to produce, $1,000 or more in annual gross sales of farm products. According to the 1992 Census of Agriculture, there are about 1.925 million farms in the United States. This number includes all farm sizes and ownership structures, including corporate farms, partnerships, and family farms.

ilrdss.sws.uiuc.edu/glossary/glossary_allresults.asp

I do have to say, though, docsconz and others, that with the time and effort that the people I know who call themselves farmers put into farming, (and likewise ranchers into ranching) I will gladly call them what they wish me to call them. People whom I do not know or do not consider credible sources will, alas, be subject to my nomenclature when I am speaking. However, I feel free to change my nomenclature when I find it necessary.

[Andrew Fenton]

A lot of the corn around here goes into ethanol production. These lands shall henceforth be known as "gas fields".

Also, those plots of land where people grow beans.

[Rebel Rose]

I used to work for Farm Credit, and for the purposes of loaning money, grape growers are farmers (Farm Credit also loans to ranchers -- or "farmers" of livestock).  And also for the pursposes of loaning money, wineries are agribusinesses.

While I was student-teaching in Blaine, Washington--on the Canadian border--my boyfriend owned a fleet of fishing boats (no small achievement for a man of 26) and was engaged in gun battles with Indian fleets and the nefarious practice of throwing boulders in each others' nets. My roommate's fiance, a Lummi Indian chieftain, had been murdered in a fight over fish.

My father is a retired manager of Farm Credit, and I grew up on a Christmas tree farm and Indian reservation. When I was a grasshopper, I toured berry farms, oyster beds, and timberland, in his shadow. I learned farming, farm finance, farm dynamics, and farm failure, at his knee. I saw women who had been widowed or abandoned running fishing fleets and timber operations in a world and a time where women had little influence. They had to fight with their own employees in order to succeed and feed their children. Like all proud dads, my father was just carting me around for the dubious value of my company, but he would also look me in the eye and say did you learn something from this?

My line-of-credit lender is Farm Credit and they are golden to me. The County of San Luis Obispo has also confided that it prefers horse ranching and vineyards to other enterprises, because of water and development issues. Celery and salad growers, who prefer sandy, riverbed soils, also require extreme amounts of water which quickly drain through their soils, depleting local aquifers. Vineyards, as opposed to wineries, do not have concerts or cause traffic congestion. They use less, if any, water, and are ecologically friendly, as well as sustainable.

[docsconz]

As with any field, some farmers are worthy of the utmost respect while some are not. By definition, though they may both still be considereed farmers. The important thing is distinguishing those who are worthy of respect from those who are not. Tana's blog is doing a nice job of highlighting some farmers who are indeed worthy of the greatest respect. I disagree, however, with the assertion that grape growers are not farmers, whether it be for economic or other reasons. It is simply a matter of definition. I, for one respect a quality grape farmer as much as anyone else. A labor of love and quality is that regardless of the end product.

[jsolomon]

A farm is a piece of land (or water perhaps) devoted to agricultural purposes  -  period.

My question is - Why does it matter?  Who cares?  Call your operation whatever you want to.

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Because of all of the efforts put into the land (or water perhaps) it matters to the person working the land (or water perhaps). There are cultural identity and pride issues in there that run soul-deep.

[rancho_gordo]

The local laws regarding planting and what can be cleared for vineyards is so strict, that I seriously doubt anyone is doing anything illegal. I can't put my finger on the exact article in the Napa Register, but a well-known vineyard manager was fined and jailed last year for clearcutting part of a mountain forest to plant vineyards. It quite simply isn't tolerated.

Sorry- what you are stating is not fact. It happens.

Edited May 17, 2005 by rancho_gordo (log)

[Lone Star]

That is my question, why would you care what other people call your operation when you can call it whatever you want to satisfy your cultural and soulful needs? It is all agribusiness. Perhaps.

[Brad Ballinger]

I like your point about Christmas Tree farms. Also add sod farms, bedding plant farms, perennial vegetable farms (e.g., artichoke farms -- they're not called "orchards").

Also, for those who are into CSA -- it's Community Supported (or Sponsored) Agriculture, not Community Supported Gardening.

[rancho_gordo]

Also, for those who are into CSA -- it's Community Supported (or Sponsored) Agriculture, not Community Supported Gardening.

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I don't think anyone is arguing that growing grapes is not ag.

I have one neighbor who grows grapes and grows them beautifully and I'm thrilled to have him next door. My other neighbors razed several acres of forest so they could have their vineyards. They visit on the weekends in the summer and a vineyard management company takes care of things. There are countless locals who are displaced by the high cost of living in their home towns and people from other regions with money come here and have their vanity vineyards.

So what's a farm?

It's just what's happening here in Napa and without putting words in her mouth, it's what Tana is seeing at the moment and I don't think she'd want to say that all food farmers are good and all grape growers are yuppie scum.

Edited May 17, 2005 by rancho_gordo (log)

[winesonoma]

Farms grow things in dirt and Ranch's grow thing's that walk around. We settled this argument a long time ago. Grapes is farming, I do it.

[melkor]

How many families does White Crane Springs feed? They are a beautiful biodynamic farm, producing absolutely stunning salad greens that can be yours for only $36/pound. To suggest that a $12 bottle of wine is a luxury good while you endorse a $4 peach seems inconsistent. As lovely as the world would be if everyone could afford to eat organic and biodynamic produce raised by the loving hands of a local farmer, the fact is that the bulk of the food produced by these good people is a luxury many people cannot afford.

I think there is some confusion about who does what in the wine world. A winemaker is the person who is responsible for turning the fruit into wine, they may or may not be the owner of the winery and they frequently are working with fruit that they purchase on contract from a vineyard elsewhere. The people who grow the grapes and sell them to wineries are called growers most of the time, they are the people who this discussion is about – are the grape growers farmers? I find it fairly obvious that someone who spends their life growing grapes is a farmer. Their role in feeding the masses is no less significant than someone selling salad for $36 a pound or $8 pound cherries or half-pints of blueberries for $4 – all of them can be found at the SF Ferry Plaza market.

As far as wine at farmers markets, the only place I’ve seen wine for sale at a farmers market is the St Helena market where oddly enough Longmeadow Ranch was selling their wine last I was there.

[carswell]

tanabutler, your definition of farmer may work for you but it's highly idiosyncratic. See Miriam-Webster (www.m-w.com), for example:

a person who cultivates land or crops or raises animals or fish

You're proposing that a new, more narrow definition replace an existing, broader one. But why? Especially when English already has the term truck farmer to describe what you're calling a farmer.

Grapes, whether for eating or wine-making, are a crop. Ergo, a grape grower is a farmer. Few exclusively wine-grape growers are truck farmers, however.

Edited May 18, 2005 by carswell (log)

[SobaAddict70]

That's ignoring the fact that to the rest of the world, outside of the United States, wine is very much an essential part of peoples' lives and culture. Whilst Napa Valley might be the center of your universe, and thus influences your point of view, it is not the end all or be all for the vast majority of people outside that particular set of life experiences.

I am not talking about bottles of wine that cost as much as dinner for one at a two or three star restaurant in San Francisco or New York. I'm talking about wine that regular people drink, in places like Italy or Mexico or Israel or even yes, New York City, that cost less than $15. A $15 bottle of wine hardly qualifies as a "luxury item" in my book. Your mileage may vary.

Clearly, the issues that you raise have at their heart less to do with wine than those of economics and class issues.

I rarely spend more than $12 or so on a bottle of wine, and usually less. (That loud sound you hear is the clunking of a half-dozen heads of shocked forum hosts who can't imagine drinking such dreck. The other sound you hear is the gasping of breath of people who wouldn't spend $12 on a bottle of wine if Brad Pitt were handcuffed to it.)

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Growing grapes is certainly agriculture, and it's fine and honorable work to produce an artisanal luxury item like a fine bottle of wine.

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But in the context of modern life, I invite you to look into your kitchen. Do you have a fancy freezer? Do you have a refrigerator/freezer and a deep freezer, too? Preservation has come to food, of course, and wine is no longer (at least not in the American lifestyle) currently a daily staple. And if it were, it wouldn't be a luxury item.  And if it were, it wouldn't be a luxury item.

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I rest my case.

[godito]

I think we must make a distinction between growing grapes and makig wine. They are both different operations that, in a lot of cases (especially in Napa, it seems) happen in the same property. Which is grate, I'm all about the winemakers knowing how the grapes were grown and harvested. But think of it as if it was beer. Farmes are growing barley, wheat, rice and whatever else and then the distillery is making the beer.

Well, back to wine... if you see grapes being grown, then farmers are growing them. Then they are turned into wine in a distillery of sorts. It also happens that grape growers sell their grapes to winemakers. I don't blame them, they get enough money in return to have a good living. Can you blame them? Some grapes are better for eating as-is, some are better for brandy, or jelly or wine. But if you grow them, what are you going to be called if not a farmer

And finally, SobaAddict... I totally agree with you. Don't think about the US$100 bottle that you find in the market or the restaurant. Think about the US$4 bottle that I bought the other day to have with lunch. Here, outsede the US, wine can't be that expensive, because we consume a lot more of it. Your wine is as expensive as it is because customers are willing to pay for it. Don't blame the winemakers

[Rebel Rose]

Well, I'm going to edit this post, because I was tired last night and my post makes no sense to anyone but me.

Let me see if I can address some of the issues we've discussed so far:

It is a common misconception, and I thank several members here for pointing this out, that winemakers and grape growers are inherently the same thing. There are many of us foolish enough to attempt both, but they are essentially very, very different operations. In Paso Robles there are 60 brick-and-mortar wineries, but over 200 vineyards. Eighty percent of the fruit grown here is sold to Napa and Sonoma wineries.

There is also life outside of Napa. Vineyards exist in almost every size and in every corner of the world, including the heart of Africa, as we will discover when we chat with Philip van Zyl next week. Napa has become a lifestyle destination and is indeed rife with vanity vineyards. But we have them here, too. I'm sure there are quite a few vanity market farms, as well.

How many families can you feed with your acreage?

That's not really an issue that defines a farmer. If you choose it as your own personal definition, that's fine. However, we do get about 10 tons of confection-grade walnuts each year.

I also grow flats and flats of tomato, pepper and basil starts each spring which I distribute to my neighbors and friends. Sometimes I even give them away to customers. I also harvest baskets and baskets of rosemary and lavender at Thanksgiving and Christmas. I give them away and tie them with raffia to wine bottles. In addition to raised beds next to my greenhouse, I maintain a 1/2 acre garden. I think anyone who works closely with the land enjoys and takes pride in productivity.

Her car is a very very old Mercedes Benz, and the only new "car" I saw on the place was a relatively new-looking, very small tractor.

Well I'm doing better than that. I've moved up from a 1975 blackberry Mercedes to a more practical 1989 Ford Bronco.

What are the challenges you face at the farmers markets? I have yet to go to a farmers market that sells wine.

It requires a special alcohol license, hardly worth the bother. Also, wine must be kept cool, so selling it out of the back of a truck is not generally recommended. We show our support for our friends at the farmers' markets by shopping there.

How do you handle the issue of diversification with a single crop?

Grapevines are a perennial vine, like blackberries and raspberries. It takes about four years before they even produce fruit. So we do not rotate crops seasonally, and we get only one crop per year. However, vineyards require far less water than annual vegetables, and create far less dust and erosion than fields that are constantly worked. We also handle biodiversity by maintaining an annual cover crop, green mulching (basically mowing the cover down and leaving it on the ground), composting our used grapeskins and seeds for return to the soil, and maintaining natural areas and corridors for wildlife and beneficial bugs.

We are also a certified wildlife habitat.

(Basically we figured if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.)

John Williams at Frog's Leap has a beautiful garden in the middle of his public property: I spent about an hour there today. The garden is supposed to be a demonstration of organic principles, and as such it acts rather as an ambassador for all things organic and sustainable, I think. The produce they grow goes to visitors to the winery, to the staff, and to the occasional dining event at Frog's Leap. The head gardener, Degge Hays, says that another reason for its existence is to support biodiversity.

An excellent example of enthusiastic and responsible farming. I also love their website, by the way. My garden and greenhouse are not open to the public, but people occasionally wander in, anyway. Heck, we've even had people walk in the house while we were making dinner and the kid was doing homework.

That's the problem with being so rich and famous.

I have known many many farmers (probably more than most people), and an equal number of winemakers. I have yet to hear anyone who grows grapes refer to himself or herself as a farmer: they have all seemed proud to be called "vintners" or "winemakers." I've never heard anyone say they're a "grape farmer." Maybe I don't know the right people.

They refer to themselves as "growers." As in, the Paso Robles Vintners' and Growers' Association. They refer to their vines specifically as a 'vineyard,' the same way that a farmer will refer to his 'pasture,' his 'orchard' or his 'barnyard.' We don't call them pasturedists, or barnyardists.

Growing grapes is certainly agriculture, and it's fine and honorable work to produce an artisanal luxury item like a fine bottle of wine.  . . I rarely spend more than $12 or so on a bottle of wine, and usually less. (That loud sound you hear is the clunking of a half-dozen heads of shocked forum hosts who can't imagine drinking such dreck.

Wine is considered a luxury item, but as Dave sort of pointed out, a bottle of Renegade Red at $10 offers more fruit than a $6 box of organic blueberries, and just as many proanthocyanadolic oligomers.

Farms feed people (not the soul, how quaint, though I knew someone would say that).

Duh. This is the wine forum.

But in my mind and heart, a farmer is someone who wakes up early every single morning to go out and grow things for people to eat.

You're assuming, and this is somewhat amazing to me given the hundreds of farmers you know, that every farmer has the perfect site and soil for vegetables. I assure you that my moist little garden spot is one of the few spots on our acreage where I can successfully grow vegetables. Our soil is so rocky and limestone rich that our planting crew broke three pickaxes planting the vineyard. There are boulders between the zinfandel vines.

We have oak root fungus in our soil. Gophers and star thistle. That's why you don't find market farms along swaths and ridges of limestone. Wine grapes are perfect for this little piece of the earth, however, because their roots penetrate deeply, they need little moisture, and they produce quality fruit from mineral-rich soils. Nut trees also thrive because their roots go deep enough to search out moisture and nutrients. Our area is well known for its peach, apple, walnut and almond orchards.

I am writing about small farms: the hard work that goes into feeding the world.

And bless you for that.

[cdh]

Vineyards, as opposed to wineries, do not have concerts or cause traffic congestion.  They use less, if any, water, and are ecologically friendly, as well as sustainable.

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That strikes me as the key distinction here. We must accept vineyards as farms because part of vineyard-ness is actually raising the grapes that are turned into wines. Wineries, on the other hand, may purchase all the grapes they turn into wine from other growers elsewhere.

So, a vineyard is a farm that grows grapes and may (but need not) produce wine. A winery is a place that makes wine but does not necessarily grow any grapes. A vineyard that is also a winery must be a farm. A winery without a vineyard cannot be a farm (unless they grow things that are not grapes).

Woo hoo! Fun with logic. Extra credit to anybody who can translate that into symbolic logic and generate the truth table.

Edited May 18, 2005 by cdh (log)

[jsolomon]

Wow... this thread is really spraining my inner pedant.

And, cdh, you are a sick, sick individual for suggesting the symbolic logic and truth table.

[jsolomon]

Our soil is so rocky and limestone rich that our planting crew broke three pickaxes planting the vineyard.

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Y'know... I was tentatively planning on a bicycle tour through your area at some point and thought I'd offer some sweat equity for a tour, but after reading that, I'll choose a lazier method...

[Rebel Rose]

I'd offer some sweat equity . . .

Anytime!

Actually, you're probably familiar with some of our 'ranch rules.' Visiting dogs must be on a leash, and if you show up when there's work to be done we're likely to put you to work.

Customer Nancy Commerdinger is helping me roll a delivery of new barrels aside. Dan wasn't here to take possession of the barrels, and the driver was kind of a jerk. Nancy's husband Ted is in the tasting room pouring wine for other customers while we roll the barrels out of the parking lot.

The only time we definitely do not accept offers of help is during harvest. Aside from the dangers of working with machinery, we have a very efficient groove to our crush work, and high standards of hygiene on the crush pad. So we've learned that it's just not a good idea to let people jump in and try to help for an hour or two. Unless they are willing to just hose out picking bins. Offers of steaks and beer are gratefully accepted, however.

[jsolomon]

Now, that's the true farm spirit! If you're here, you're family. Have a shovel and get to work with John-boy.

[Behemoth]

So, a vineyard is a farm that grows grapes and may (but need not) produce wine.  A winery is a place that makes wine but does not necessarily grow any grapes.  A vineyard that is also a winery must be a farm.  A winery without a vineyard cannot be a farm (unless they grow things that are not grapes).

Woo hoo!  Fun with logic.  Extra credit to anybody who can translate that into symbolic logic and generate the truth table.

As in "all vinyards are not wineries"?

[Varmint]

I'm too tired to jump into this fascinating discussion, but I do want to ask whether these are farms:

The olive grower that produces the world's most exquisite EVOO.

The apple grower who has but one type of apples.

The Concord grape grower who sells one-third of her crop at the farmer's market, one-third is sold to Welch's for grape juice, and one-third is made into wine.

The goat raiser that uses their milk to make ultra-deluxe goat cheese.

The Central California grower that grows lettuce, tomatoes, and several other vegetables, all but a small portion of which to be sold to huge corporate conglomerates for nationwide distribution.

Frankly, these are all farms to me. And some of them may be the struggling, small, family-owned farms who have a presence at the farmers market. But they're still all farms.