Cheeses of Spain & Portugal

[scordelia]

I don't think there's much chance that Asturias is copying Normandy... this is one of the most isolated and steadfastly traditional regions in Spain that we are talking about.

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Precisely my point. I do not think they are copying eachother. Also, I do not mean to generalize about the apples, cream, cider and cheese use in Asturias or Normandy for that matter. Not all Norman dishes use these ingredients either. My point is that is not a huge surprise that two area that raise dairy cattle, veal and make cheese would both decide to throw them together.

How and when did saffron end up in fabes con almejas? It's obviously an exotic ingredient...

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I was under the impression that Spain has raised the saffron crocus for centuries which might make it less exotic for the Spanish.

[butterfly]

The phoenicians allegedly brought saffron to "Spain"--but it is grown far to the south of Asturias--in an area that wasn't historically well-connected with the other side of the Cantabrian mountain range.

[scordelia]

So was saffron more prevalent in the south, and is now becoming more widespread?

[vserna]

If it is not an Asturian dish, then find a reference for us, but I have a feeling that it is.

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scordelia, you are being unduly stubborn about this whole thing. I'll explain…

If you knew Spanish history, you would know that King Pelayo of Asturias began the Christian re-conquest of Spain after it was occupied by Arabs and Berbers in the 8th century, which is the reason why Pelayo remains a proud name in Asturias and someone using 'Pelayin' (i.e., 'little Pelayo') as a moniker is an Asturian. Even without such previous knowledge of those rather esoteric and exotic historical details, Pelayin's post should have alerted you to the fact that he really knows what he's talking about when referring to Asturian cuisine.

Now, if you demand "a reference", here goes. Not from Pelayin (whom I haven't met, BTW), but from me. I'm a professional food and wine writer in Spain.

There are no traditional dishes consisting in any fried or grilled meats in Asturias. Grilling techniques are a latecomer to the whole of northern Spain, basically brought to the Basque Country in the early 20th century by Basques returning from Argentina and Uruguay, and it spread from there. Frying isn't common because olive oil was not generally used in the area (except in Cantabria, where a pipeline to Andalusian oil has existed since the Middle Ages). Stewing is the traditional cooking technique throughout the northern third of Spain.

As Pelayín says, there has been for more than a century a French beef recipe, whose actual name is tournedos au roquefort, rather forgotten nowadays in France (cheese-based dishes are quite passé…) but still popular in places like Germany.

About 30 years ago, a wily Spanish restaurateur called Victor Merino devised a local version in Santander, Cantabria, where he owned three well-known restaurants – El Molino, La Sardina and El Riojano. It was actually a beef steak with a cheese sauce, which he first baptized 'entrecot cabraliego' (i.e., Cabrales-style). When chided by proud Cantabrians because he was extolling the name of the competing Cabrales cheese whereas he was actually using Cantabria's own Picón Bejes-Tresviso cheese, he changed the name to 'entrecot al queso picón'. This became quite popular, and naturally it spread throughout Spain with cheaper blue cheese being generally used.

[scordelia]

Well, why didn't you just say all this in the first place instead of tossing around some snippy quips?

Now I have the explanation I was looking for! Thank you.

[vserna]

why didn't you just say all this in the first place instead of tossing around some snippy quips?

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The quips were caused by your Olympian disdain toward Pelayin's crystal-clear, well-informed post. This discussion shouldn't have continued for a minute after that.

[Bux]

The concepts of "traditional," "authentic," "native" and "typical" vary tremendously from person to person. It's not all that unusual to hear "this is a dish that's been around since 1890 when chef Quesogrande invented it. On any given Sunday, about 80% of the population in our provincial capital is eating this for dinner instead of the traditional and typical food of the region. In fact, no one eats the typical and traditional food anymore."

What is traditional? Tempura, a dish many of us associate with Japan, is of course, not a traditional Japanese recipe. It came from Europeans, the Portuguese, I believe, hundreds of years ago. It's all relative. I'm quite convinced Cabrales sauce is not Asturian. I'm also convinced that enough people who might seem to be held up as reliable sources have gone on record saying it is. Thus I'm not surprised people believe it is. For instance, Bob, a moderator at the Asturian-American Migration Forum offers a recipe for Cabrales Sauce for beef or pork and jomaguca offers one for Escalopines al cabrales. If there was an Italian-American migration forum, I'm sure it would have recipes for meatballs and spaghetti, a dish that is legendary in Italy. Legendary, and just about non existent.

Perhaps newcomers to this forum are surprised to eventually learn we have experts among our members. Perhaps that's why elmundovino.com refered to eGullet.com as the "primer sitio gastronómico Internet del mundo." In the meantime, it must be realised that there's an awful lot of misinformation out there, much of it in print looking very authoritative. It's not always obvious that the truth is going to come from a web site.

[vserna]

Bux: 1890, the centuries-ago Portuguese... These are sufficiently old references to allow for a real 'tradition' to develop. Victor Merino first served his steak with blue-cheese circa 1975 in Cantabria, not Asturias, where I only began seeing it in the 1980s. I think that's a bit too recent to have the 'traditional' tag attached to it. And then it should perhaps be considered a Cantabrian dish.

[Bux]

Bux: 1890, the centuries-ago Portuguese... These are sufficiently old references to allow for a real 'tradition' to develop. Victor Merino first served his steak with blue-cheese circa 1975 in Cantabria, not Asturias, where I only began seeing it in the 1980s. I think that's a bit too recent to have the 'traditional' tag attached to it. And then it should perhaps be considered a Cantabrian dish.

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No disagreement about where it began or what the experts know, just that misconceptions get quickly entrenched in the public mind. Folk history is full of myths and lies. Develop a sauce and name it after a cheese from a neighboring province and within a generation the neighboring province will be making claims of ownership. False truths develop a stronghold like crabgrass in far less than a generation. They quickly establlish a reality of their own, appearing in print under highly authoritive sounding titles further entrenching themselves in the public reality.

[pedro]

. . .

Develop a sauce and name it after a cheese from a neighboring province and within a generation the neighboring province will be making claims of ownership.

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Hollandaise, Spanish (salsa española) and even mayonnaise mahonesa are clear examples of that, Bux.

[Rogelio]

Hollandaise, Spanish (salsa española)

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I shouldn't say that hollandaise and salsa española are the same thing.

[scordelia]

Or the potato chip? Saratoga Springs claims to have invented it, but the Spanish have made it their own with all those little potato chip factories that supply the bars (I love those chips!).

[pedro]

Hollandaise, Spanish (salsa española)

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I shouldn't say that hollandaise and salsa española are the same thing.

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Ooops. My mistake. I meant to write Spanish sauce. Indeed, quite different animals hollandaise and Spanish sauce.

Thanks for pointing that out, Rogelio.

[vserna]

"Spanish sauce" is actually "sauce espagnole" and is not Spanish at all - it's a classic Carème concoction, basic in 19th century French cooking.

[pedro]

"Spanish sauce" is actually "sauce espagnole" and is not Spanish at all - it's a classic Carème concoction, basic in 19th century French cooking.

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Precisely, that was the point that I was trying to make. Neither of the sauces known as hollandaise, espagnole or mayonnaise have any relationship Nederland, Spain and Mahón respectively. Nonetheless, their names lead many people to confusion. Well, not that many among our members.

[Bux]

Or the potato chip? Saratoga Springs claims to have invented it, but the Spanish have made it their own with all those little potato chip factories that supply the bars (I love those chips!).

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Potato chips are pretty international, but they seem to exist on a more artisanal level in some countries. In any event, I've not seen anyone claim them for Spain and though Saratoga Springs claims to have invented the potato chip (story here, or here) they haven't managed to successfully attach their name the way the French have to the Belgian fried potato.

[scordelia]

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Potato chips are pretty international, but they seem to exist on a more artisanal level in some countries. In any event, I've not seen anyone claim them for Spain and though Saratoga Springs claims to have invented the potato chip (story here, or here) they haven't managed to successfully attach their name the way the French have to the Belgian fried potato.

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What I meant was that Spain seems to have whole heartedly adopted the chip, and they do have their own spin on it with all those little factories. Spanish potato chips are unique, and the best, among chips.

One of your articles (thanks) said that Herman Lay founded the first national brand. Now Chicagoans claim that Japp's (now Jay's, changed the name after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor) was the first.

Edited April 23, 2005 by scordelia (log)

[AlexP]

I would like to make some quesada. I tried a recipe on Sunday without good success, nonetheless, I do not want to end my search. This recipe did not call for cheese, but some yogurt,. I have read a couple recipes that either call for Queso de Burgos or Requeson. I am located in Minneapolis and finding the above cheeses is an issue. Can anybody recommend a cheese available in the US markets that will be an appropriate substitute?

Thanks

Alex

[butterfly]

If you can't get your hands on Queso de Burgos, then I would probably use a full-fat ricotta. But you might experiment with eliminating a bit of the liquid in the recipe, since ricotta is a softer cheese.

[JesusBarquin]

Sorry, but no cheese nor yogurt in the real quesada pasiega. Butter, flour, eggs, sugar and a bit of lemon peel are the main ingredients.

I have never cooked it, but have eaten hundreds since I was a kid. It is a plate that should be eaten very soon after baked, even a bit warm still, as it lacks freshness quickly. This is not the case of "her brother", the sobao pasiego.

The best place I know for eating it, apart from some of my uncle and aunts' home, is Restaurante México in La Vega de Pas. Casa Olmo, in Ontaneda, sells also a very good version. Both in the province of Santander, of course.

[PassionateChefsDie]

I'd bow to the spanish persons knowledge, I was going to suggest a cheese but choose not to as I figured butterfly knew best. Though in my book it describes it as slightly rubbery which suggests somewhere between riccotta and mozeralla

On googling the first 2 recipes I came up with both recipes including cheese heres the google search

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=fire...G=Google+Search

Just a little time on google

[AlexP]

I am actually from Torrelavega, in the province of Cantabria of course, not Santander.

Well, in order to avoid arguments of what makes a real/authentic Quesada Pasiega, let me ask the simple question what would be a decent substitute for Queso de Burgos or for Requeson that could be found in American markets.

Gracias

Alex

[vserna]

Sorry, but no cheese nor yogurt in the real quesada pasiega.

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I have to disagree, Jesús. It's the sobao pasiego that includes no cheese. Quesada contains, specifically, queso pasiego - a Burgos-like fresh cow's milk cheese. Ricotta doesn't seem to be the best replacement IMHO. But I can't really fathom what could be.

[PassionateChefsDie]

Sorry, but no cheese nor yogurt in the real quesada pasiega.

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I have to disagree, Jesús. It's the sobao pasiego that includes no cheese. Quesada contains, specifically, queso pasiego - a Burgos-like fresh cow's milk cheese. Ricotta doesn't seem to be the best replacement IMHO. But I can't really fathom what could be.

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Could you get Queso Fresco or use it as a replacement it seems to be based on the Burgos cheeses and it's mexican?

[AlexP]

Thanks for the replies.

There are plenty of Mexican markets in Minneapolis and Queso Fresco is widely available. So far it might be my best option. Thanks.

Alex