Fernand Point and his Influence

[Really Nice!]

Thanks all for your input, I'm very impressed and thankful for your effort.

Lucy, thank you very much for calling La Pyramide. I do appreciate that.

Therese, thanks for the tip. I posted the question in the Japan forum as well.

chefzadi, the paragraph comes from a handout in class.

Robert, thanks for asking your friend about this.

[Carlsbad]

I have pulled out old books I haven't cracked in years because of this thread, and frankly, I'm more confused by the contradictory information in various sources. I say this as an excuse if my thoughts seem rambling and imprecise.

Although the term "Nouvelle Cuisine" has been used on and off for at least 200 years to describe various points in the evolution of French cuisine, most people think of the use by Gault and Millau in the '70's. A story in Cooking the Nouvelle Cuisine in America, a 1979 cookbook which I bought during the height of the NC hype and which I last opened maybe 10 years ago, has a story that supposedly tells how G&M got started on the NC campaign. It is said that they were working fo a newspaper in the late '60's touring and reviewing restaurants awarded three stars by Michelin. At Bocuse, they had a superb but classic lunch, and when they returned for dinner, they asked Bocuse for a lighter meal. He obliged with a simple green bean salad. At first, they were unimpressed, but were "stunned" by the first bite. The beans were undercooked and crunchy, exceptionally flavorful, and had a "fresh garden perfume." He followed this with tiny rouget. They raved to him, and he told them that they wanted simplicity, they should visit the Troisgros brothers, who then had been awarded one star. The book calls this the birth of the "movement." Whether this story is true or not, who knows?

Although Bocuse is included in the this story and is said to be one of the innovators of NC, I remember looking at the GM guide a number of years ago, and, as I recall, they said he prepared classic dishes in a grand manner, but he wasn't innovative enough and was not rated as high as some of the other 3 star places because of it. Beyond that, Bocuse's cookbooks, at least those I have, are traditional, with all the classic sauces that are thicken with flour.

Every source I have seen seems to agree that Point's insistence on the very best ingredients and cooking them to bring out the essential qualities of the ingredients were innovative for the times. It is suggested by some that, although French chefs always wanted good ingredients, when marinades and elaborate sauces are used, it is not as important. This line of thinking is that if a chicken is prepared to enhance the chicken taste, the quality of the chicken is more important than when it is cooked with strong flavors and heavily sauced. There is also the inference that standards had slipped and Point and his followers stressed it more than others of the day.

Two other forces are discussed with respect to Point. One is the automobile, which allowed people to drive to Vienne on the way to the South. This mobility is said to have increased the quality of provincial restaurants and led to the incorporation of regional dishes into grander restaurants. The other force is the increase in highly-rated, chef-owned restaurants, which is said to have increased rather dramatically during and after his time.

[docsconz]

This is a truly fascinating thread. It is especially so for me for having recenently read Point's book, "Ma Cuisine". While I wouldn't swear that it didn't mention Japan, I don't recall a mention of it if he did. Unfortunately, the book was borrowed and I no longer have it.

[Ptipois]

The book calls this the birth of the "movement."  Whether this story is true or not, who knows

Whether or not the birth of the movement can be retraced to this small event, "Nouvelle Cuisine" as we know it is something quite different from a cuisine nouvelle, a new cuisine of any sorts. It is indeed the brand name of the movement that started in the early 70's. To sum it up roughly, it was short cooking times, crunchy vegetables, pink-at-the-bone fish, unstarched reduced sauces, no serving dishes and everything on large individual plates with (say the meanest) not much on them. It was also the beginning of the assembly-line cooking that became an international style and is mostly prevalent now ("It's so beautifully arranged on the plate", said Julia Child - "You know someone's fingers have been all over it.") Things have changed and other styles have appeared or been adopted, but roughly we're still there. Just think that no one has ventured to propose another "nouvelle cuisine" since the 70's: new concepts all had different names (fusion food, slow food, etc.) but the term Nouvelle Cuisine has remained, to this day, anchored to the Gault & Millau definition. Nobody has come up with something different and called it "nouvelle cuisine" in a way that the 70's model would be replaced.

(Of course you may read terms like "nouvelle Italian cuisine" and so on, but it is still the original concept with an adjective added to it.)

Edited January 23, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[Boris_A]

Point's concept and success was maybe more a reaction on the cuisine of Escoffier, which is connotated with Belle Epoque, railways and Grandhotels. As Carlsbad noted, Point's cuisine is embedded in the automobile aera and the provincial restaurants along the country roads. At that time (in '33, he got his 3rd Michelin star), travelling from Paris to the Côte d'Azur took many, many hours and both, Point and Dumaine, offered great culinary pit stops. I learned that the smart Point offered a free lunch for the drivers of his high society clients and that oftenly the drivers were responsible for selecting the place for the stop ...

I hardly can imagine Point - who obviously hated travelling - taking a ship to Japan and sacrifying so much time in the 30ies.

The ideas and health considerations of the Nouvelle Cuisine came up when the stomacs were filled after the post WW2 decades.

Bocuses (rather a great communicator of the NC than being on of it's inventors) second trip - he took an airplane for the first time in his life at the age of 40 when he travelled to the US - led him to Japan. Could be a confusion at work here?

Edited January 23, 2005 by Boris_A (log)

[Ptipois]

Bocuses (rather a great communicator of the NC than being on of it's inventors) second trip - he took an airplane for the first time in his life at the age of 40 when he travelled to the US - led him to Japan. Could be a confusion at work here?

←

I thought there may be. If there ever was a French chef's trip to Japan that was considered seminal in the shaping of the "Nouvelle Cuisine" concept, it was Bocuse's. I never heard of such a thing concerning Point.

[Carlsbad]

Bocuses (rather a great communicator of the NC than being on of it's inventors) second trip - he took an airplane for the first time in his life at the age of 40 when he travelled to the US - led him to Japan. Could be a confusion at work here?

←

I thought there may be. If there ever was a French chef's trip to Japan that was considered seminal in the shaping of the "Nouvelle Cuisine" concept, it was Bocuse's. I never heard of such a thing concerning Point.

←

I'm leaning toward the confusion theory, too. Bocuse speaks of his trip to Japan in his cookbook, and how he taught a class to 1500 Japanese students, saying he learned as much as he taught there. He also says he learned how to "cook vegetables very well, which meant very quickly" in Hong Kong.

He also discusses what is translated as "the new cuisine," which he says is "the true cuisine" based first on emphasis of quality of ingredients and "striving to retain the original taste of the food." He then cites other "rules" of the new cuisine, including making up a menu only after going to the market and seeing what is available, which he says "obliges you to simplify, to lighten your menus." He notes cooking fish pink around the bone, vegetables crunchy, and pasta firm as being part of the simplification process. In the same paragraph, he credits Point for abolishing "all those sauces, those complicated, overly rich dishes, those garnishes that were the law in nineteenth-century cooking." Interestingly, he also says that he thinks presentation is "not very important."

[chefzadi]

I've been allover egullet reading posts about French food. There seem to be alot of burning questions about what it is and the direction it's taking, "the death of Haute Cuisine", French influence on American cuisine, the Michelin rating system, etc... I'm moved to offer some of my experiences and "behind the scenes" knowledge on these topics. But I'm not sure where I should post this.

[Carlsbad]

I've been allover egullet reading posts about French food. There seem to be alot of burning questions about what it is and the direction it's taking, "the death of Haute Cuisine", French influence on American cuisine,  the Michelin rating system, etc... I'm moved to offer some of my experiences and "behind the scenes" knowledge on these topics. But I'm not sure where I should post this.

←

Please do. I, for one, would love to hear your thoughts on all these subjects. On this thread is fine, but you may want to start a new one since I'm sure it will be a lively topic.

Edited January 23, 2005 by Carlsbad (log)

[John Talbott]

I'm moved to offer some of my experiences and "behind the scenes" knowledge on these topics. But I'm not sure where I should post this.

←

Please do. I, for one, would love to hear your thoughts on all these subjects. On this thread is fine, but you may want to start a new one since I'm sure it will be a lively topic.

←

I second Carlsbad's thought to post it as a new thread. You have already written so much that's interesting that I think a new thread would really be a contribution. Thanks for what you've done to date and I look forward to what's coming.

[Jaymes]

Bocuses (rather a great communicator of the NC than being on of it's inventors) second trip - he took an airplane for the first time in his life at the age of 40 when he travelled to the US - led him to Japan. Could be a confusion at work here?

I thought there may be. If there ever was a French chef's trip to Japan that was considered seminal in the shaping of the "Nouvelle Cuisine" concept, it was Bocuse's. I never heard of such a thing concerning Point.

I'm leaning toward the confusion theory, too.

Ah HA! Perhaps it was a trick question.

[Ptipois]

Ah HA!  Perhaps it was a trick question.   

←

Hm, perhaps, but what for?

[Jaymes]

Ah HA!  Perhaps it was a trick question.   

Hm, perhaps, but what for?

Well, according to the original post, the question was "Why did Fernand Point go to Japan in the first place?" And the poster said that it was a question asked in French culinary class.

Perhaps the instructor asking the question considered it for some time and decided not to ask the obvious...."Why did Bocuse go to Japan?" figuring that'd be easy to find out on the internet.

So the instructor decided to ask the question about Point, knowing that now doing any research into the answer would be long and involved and undoubtedly teach the students far more than the simpler question would have.

So, maybe it's a trick question. Maybe the answer to "Why did Fernand Point go to Japan in the first place?" is "He didn't. Bocuse did."

Just a thought.

[Really Nice!]

Thank you all for the input. Your responses and participation is very cool.

If you can find anything else about this topic, please continue to post it here.

By the way, does Point have any descendants that any of you might know of??

[Bux]

Really Nice!,

When will this subject be discussed in your class? As none of us can find any evidence of a trip to Japan taken by Chef Point and the question of the nature of the question posed to you has been raised, it will be interesting to hear what your instructor has to say about this.

[Really Nice!]

Really Nice!,

When will this subject be discussed in your class? As none of us can find any evidence of a trip to Japan taken by Chef Point and the question of the nature of the question posed to you has been raised, it will be interesting to hear what your instructor has to say about this.

←

I gave him the link to this question, so hopefully it will be soon.

[torakris]

I just read through heaps of background on this guy all in Japanese and not one mentions a trip to Japan...

I starting to think there was no trip....

Once I figured out the right way to write his name in Japanese I found hundreds of mentions of him, I did find a picture of his wife and a Japanese chef

Madame Point

second one down on the left

[Ptipois]

So the instructor decided to ask the question about Point, knowing that now doing any research into the answer would be long and involved and undoubtedly teach the students far more than the simpler question would have.

So, maybe it's a trick question.  Maybe the answer to "Why did Fernand Point go to Japan in the first place?" is "He didn't.  Bocuse did."

Just a thought.

←

Gee, that would be a vicious instructor!

[Bux]

Really Nice!,

When will this subject be discussed in your class? As none of us can find any evidence of a trip to Japan taken by Chef Point and the question of the nature of the question posed to you has been raised, it will be interesting to hear what your instructor has to say about this.

←

I gave him the link to this question, so hopefully it will be soon.

←

Now I'm really quite confused. Who is it that proposed this question in the first place what prompted the question. I had assumed it was asked by the instructor and that the answer was to be delivered in class, perhaps in a discussion or a test. My assumption would be that whoever asked the question had some knowledge that Point was in Japan at some time and that the statement that preceeded the question in your post has some facts behind it.

Soon we will be asking where you are going to school and perhaps questioning why.

[Jaymes]

I did find a picture of his wife and a Japanese chef

So perhaps the answer to the original question of why did Fernand Point go to Japan in the first place is, "To retrieve his wife."

[Really Nice!]

Now I'm really quite confused. Who is it that proposed this question in the first place what prompted the question. I had assumed it was asked by the instructor and that the answer was to be delivered in class, perhaps in a discussion or a test. My assumption would be that whoever asked the question had some knowledge that Point was in Japan at some time and that the statement that preceeded the question in your post has some facts behind it.

Soon we will be asking where you are going to school and perhaps questioning why. 

←

You're confused? If the question were to be delivered in class why would I be asking it here?

He read in a book that Point visited Japan, and after that visit hw started creating dishes using lighter sauces, smaller portions, seasonal and regional ingredients at a time when the rest of the French culinary world was into heavy sauces, large portions, and using ingredients no matter the season or region. This new style that Point developed is in line with Japanese cuisine.

This is the information I have to go on, this is why I posted the question.

[chefzadi]

Will you find out the name of the book your instructor found this information in and post it?

[chefzadi]

I just read through heaps of background on this guy all in Japanese  and not one mentions a trip to Japan...

I starting to think there was no trip....

Once I figured out the right way to write his name in Japanese I found hundreds of mentions of him, I did find a picture of his wife and a Japanese chef

Madame Point

second one down on the left

←

I tend to think of the Japanese as diligent record keepers. One would think there would be some mention at least in Japanese regarding Fernand Point's trip (which I'm increasingly believing never occurred) and also that there would be some accounts of the influence on his cooking other than someone's rather bold statement. The man mentored alot of the next generation of chefs also. I don't know how successful this will be but I will email some "sources" I know. This could take a while.

[Bux]

I did find a picture of his wife and a Japanese chef

So perhaps the answer to the original question of why did Fernand Point go to Japan in the first place is, "To retrieve his wife."

←

I'll bet that picture was taken in Vienne at la Pyramide with Point's widow. I'm also beginning to suspect the instuctor may be confused about his facts or his chef.

[torakris]

I just read through heaps of background on this guy all in Japanese  and not one mentions a trip to Japan...

I starting to think there was no trip....

Once I figured out the right way to write his name in Japanese I found hundreds of mentions of him, I did find a picture of his wife and a Japanese chef

Madame Point

second one down on the left

←

I tend to think of the Japanese as diligent record keepers. One would think there would be some mention at least in Japanese regarding Fernand Point's trip (which I'm increasingly believing never occurred) and also that there would be some accounts of the influence on his cooking other than someone's rather bold statement. The man mentored alot of the next generation of chefs also. I don't know how successful this will be but I will email some "sources" I know. This could take a while.

←

I am with chefzadi here, if there was a trip to Japan or any major influence of Japanese cooking on Point's creations, I can't imagine that there is no reference to it at all in Japanese sources...

Sites like this, that discuss his greatness would definitely mention a trip to Japan..