Looking for Closure: Screwcaps vs. Corks

[Niall]

I've found that the synthetic corks are not good for aging wine; one winery we purchase from regularly offers to replace wines with them for ones with cork.

From what I've heard, some of the UK supermarkets are already demanding that their suppliers use the screwcaps

[tommy]

i have generally been of the opinion that "screwtops are a good thing for me." i drink most of my wine young, so a lot of the issues related to screwtops vs. cork are moot. and since i hit a 5% failure rate, i figure i'm happy to see any movement in the direction of screwtops.

at any rate, the other day, i went to have a drink of one of my everyday whites, villa maria sauvignon blanc (a producer from NZ), and lo and behold, the 2002 has a screwtop. i have to say, with all of my preaching, my first thought was "damn, i'd prefer the cork."

i guess i'm all for screwtops...just not in *my* wine.

[Niall]

About a week ago ordered the Howard park Riesling with screwcap in a restaurant. The waitress had difficulty opening the screwcap.

[ivan]

I guess it hasn't occurred to anyone that synthetic corks and screwcaps will be the death of the wine-rack industry. Our children will be storing bottles upright, as God intended.

Edit to add this: If we can get past the stigma of a screw-top on our Lafite, why not dispense with the bottle altogether and go with the wine-in-a-box concept accross the board? Much more efficient to store, handle and ship, plus no breakage.

[tommy]

I guess it hasn't occurred to anyone that synthetic corks and screwcaps will be the death of the wine-rack industry. Our children will be storing bottles upright, as God intended.

Edit to add this: If we can get past the stigma of a screw-top on our Lafite, why not dispense with the bottle altogether and go with the wine-in-a-box concept accross the board? Much more efficient to store, handle and ship, plus no breakage.

are boxes air-tight?

i think the people making wine-racks for the most part make other racks as well. they'll be ok.

[ivan]

I was just kidding about the wine-rack industry, although there are some monstrosities in the world of wine-racks that no one would miss.

I wasn't kidding about the boxes, though. I'm sure they're air-tight, or can be made air-tight, and lined with the same non-reactive material used on screw-caps and artificial corks. You can make an array of volumes, from ten-liter super-size cartons down to juice-box-size by-the-glass servings. Costco would love it.

What are the practical reasons why this should not be done?

The screw-top is one big slippery slope, I tell ya.

[tommy]

ivan

boxes now aren't airtight as far as i know.

i'm guessing glass is cheaper than whatever it would be to make an airtight container that would essentially need to be pliable as well.

no one would buy boxes. synthetic corks and screw tops are one thing, boxes are another.

how do you pour from a box?

costo might love it, but the rest of the world wouldn't. restaurants for one would never go for it.

cardboard, or whatever the box would be made from, would not be a very good conductor of temp, so chilling might be a problem.

most importantly, there's nothing inherently wrong with glass that the industry and consumers could point to to rationalize the cost and absurdity of moving away from it.

[Dave the Cook]

First of all, who are you--and what have to done with tommy? The tommy we know and lo--the tommy we know would never string together that many words without a single smiley, expletive or snarky aside.

Second, I think Ivan is referring to the aseptic packaging that juice and milk sometimes come in. This packaging, which is primarily laminated aluminum foil and plastic film, is at least as airtight as a screwtop--the contents, which are subjected to UHT pasteurization, will keep almost indefinitely. Being aluminum and very thin plastic, they are quite responsive to temperature changes.

Wine has been sold in boxes (which enclose a plastic bladder full of wine) for a number of years. Not good wine, mind you, but wine nevertheless.

Having noted all of this, I agree with you, not-tommy. This will not fly, with the possible exception of bulk-purchased house wines, where the customer never sees the container.

[tommy]

Wine has been sold in boxes (which enclose a plastic bladder full of wine) for a number of years. Not good wine, mind you, but wine nevertheless.

this is what i was referring to. as far as those little aluminum boxes go, i'm guessing that a whole lotta research would be put into a new type of box, as the effects these things have on juice are not doubt negligible, but put your wine in aluminum for 3 years and see what happens.

[hollywood]

Wine has been sold in boxes (which enclose a plastic bladder full of wine) for a number of years. Not good wine, mind you, but wine nevertheless.

this is what i was referring to. as far as those little aluminum boxes go, i'm guessing that a whole lotta research would be put into a new type of box, as the effects these things have on juice are not doubt negligible, but put your wine in aluminum for 3 years and see what happens.

The wine will get alzheimer's?

[ivan]

I plan to be as unreasonable about screw-tops as the NRA is about any gun law. Slippery slope straight to wine-in-a-box hell, I tell ya.

Plastic corks don't bother me, however, although some of them are a true bitch to remove.

[nightscotsman]

Wine has been sold in boxes (which enclose a plastic bladder full of wine) for a number of years. Not good wine, mind you, but wine nevertheless.

this is what i was referring to. as far as those little aluminum boxes go, i'm guessing that a whole lotta research would be put into a new type of box, as the effects these things have on juice are not doubt negligible, but put your wine in aluminum for 3 years and see what happens.

The fluid doesn't actually come in contact with aluminum, but with the innert plastic inner layer. In Japan sake is readily available in these single serving "juice box" containers. In vending machines. Along with whisky and wine. On practically every street corner. I wanna go back to Japan.

Currently boxed wine is much like packaged cereals. There is an inner plastic bag that actually contains the product. The cardboard box is there only to contain the bag and act as a surface to put pretty pictures and branding on. For wine boxes there is a spiggot on the lower front for dispensing like a beverage cooler. In a way this is actually better than glass bottles since as you dispense the wine, the bag colapses and you get less deterioration due to exposure to oxygen. I know these things because my Mom used to keep a box of white zinfandel or rose in the fridge for an occasional before dinner nip.

[tommy]

The fluid doesn't actually come in contact with aluminum, but with the innert plastic inner layer. In Japan sake is readily available in these single serving "juice box" containers.

i know what the fluid touches. i was exaggerating. but clearly these wouldn't be suitable for wine as they are now. if they are, then Hi-C wasted a butt load of money developing them.

For wine boxes there is a spiggot on the lower front for dispensing like a beverage cooler. In a way this is actually better than glass bottles since as you dispense the wine, the bag colapses and you get less deterioration due to exposure to oxygen.

sediment.

[ivan]

sediment.

Sediment trap.

[tommy]

sediment.

Sediment trap.

far from ideal. no improvement on what we have now. again, i return to the point: what is the advantage? if it ain't broke, etc.

[nightscotsman]

sediment.

Sediment trap.

far from ideal. no improvement on what we have now. again, i return to the point: what is the advantage? if it ain't broke, etc.

As I said earlier, The plastic-bag-in-a-box approach has the definite advantage and improvement of keeping the wine fresher. Avoiding sediment and letting the wine breath are what decanters are for. I'm convinced the only reason we don't abandon glass bottles completely is pure snobishness (and I count myself among the snobs). Glass breaks easily, is realatively expensive both to make and ship, and the shapes are innefficient. Corks can taint the wine or crumble and break when extracting and may not form a perfect seal. The fact that only crap wine is available in boxes and (until recently) screwtops dooms them from the start. For all rational reasons these are better containers than glass bottles with corks, but the history, emotion, insecurity and romance surrounding wine production and drinking makes for a very conservative marketplace.

Don't get me wrong - I want to buy wine in beautiful glass bottles, and while I don't mind synthetic corks, I cringe at screwtops. I also know that these feelings are irrational.

[tommy]

corks aside, i just don't see anyone making a strong case that bottles aren't as good as boxes.

decanters are certainly for sediment. however, i don't decant every bottle, although i do mind the sediment in just about every bottle by simply not pouring the last 2 oz or so.

i haven't read any numbers on the cost of a bottle, but i've suggested it ain't much. do you have any numbers? they're recycleable for cryin out loud.

i can count the number of broken bottles that i've come across one 1 hand. i don't have any stats on breakage during shipment, however, but i can't imagine that it's anything more than negligible.

why are the shapes "ineffecient?"

your assertion that the wine will stay "fresher" in a box is curious. do you mean over time before it's opened? otherwise, i'm pretty sure that a good percentage of bottles are finished when they're opened. for the rest, people seem very happy with the various contraptions like vacu-seals and the like. thinking that air would be sucked out of the bag as the wine is poured is probably ok in theory, but there will still be air in there, and it's probably got a much greater surface area to come in contact with...which is bad. and if there *is* no air in there, well then you'd never get the last portion of the wine out. in fact, if no air gets in, no wine gets out. that's just physics. or fluid dynamics. or something. i can just picture a half glass being all caught up in the creases in the folding bag, and people shaking and squeezing this friggin box to get it out.

again, i'm interested in hearing some real solid arguments on:

1) the downside to bottles with screwcaps (or synthetic corks)

2) the upside of a box with a bag with aluminum and a spout.

[Stone]

According to 7x7 (San Francisco's new trendy mag) article: "Put A Cork In It: Who will win the wind industry's latest wrestling match" about the fight betwixt corks and screwtops:

1) Up to 10% of all wine bottles are corked.

2) Cork trees are not injured when their bark is harvested (I know you'll all drink easier now).

3) Nothing much else that hasn't already been written above.

[ivan]

sediment.

Sediment trap.

far from ideal. no improvement on what we have now. again, i return to the point: what is the advantage? if it ain't broke, etc.

The wine box is a change in packaging. As long as the product itself (the wine) does not suffer, then the benefits of non-breakable, stackable packaging are significant for the producer and the seller. Shipping costs per volume of wine would decrease dramatically. Breakage would be reduced. Warehousing costs would be reduced. For the consumer, the benefits would be negligible -- boxes are more convenient to transport and store, that's about it -- but if the savings in production costs are passed on to the consumer, there will be no complaints. A quick search yielded frightening results:

Look at this, and fear the future.

This, too, if you're not afraid of finding out what our fellow country-people are swilling. Bastards.

Read this if you think Randall Grahm is cool -- he is not. He is a traitor. Coming soon -- Big House Red in a box.

The second paragraph tells us of some traitors in France (quelle supris!) -- Domain de Fontavin. In a box.

It's happening... make it stop!

Ozzies: always ahead of the game ("Box wine sales rocketed and competition got to such a stage in the late '80s that producers were reputed to be putting better wines in the boxes than in their low-end bottles.")

I can hear it now: "Grandpa Ivan, what's a 'bottle'?"

"Well, little Ivan III, it's sort of a box made from glass."

"That's dumb."

[ivan]

sediment.

Sediment trap.

far from ideal. no improvement on what we have now. again, i return to the point: what is the advantage? if it ain't broke, etc.

As I said earlier, The plastic-bag-in-a-box approach has the definite advantage and improvement of keeping the wine fresher. Avoiding sediment and letting the wine breath are what decanters are for. I'm convinced the only reason we don't abandon glass bottles completely is pure snobishness (and I count myself among the snobs). Glass breaks easily, is realatively expensive both to make and ship, and the shapes are innefficient. Corks can taint the wine or crumble and break when extracting and may not form a perfect seal. The fact that only crap wine is available in boxes and (until recently) screwtops dooms them from the start. For all rational reasons these are better containers than glass bottles with corks, but the history, emotion, insecurity and romance surrounding wine production and drinking makes for a very conservative marketplace.

Don't get me wrong - I want to buy wine in beautiful glass bottles, and while I don't mind synthetic corks, I cringe at screwtops. I also know that these feelings are irrational.

My sediments exactly.

[tommy]

i have some serious doubt that wine in a box stays fresh for up to six weeks after opened. perhaps the wine in question is grape juice and not burgundy?

[g.johnson]

in fact, if no air gets in, no wine gets out.  that's just physics.  or fluid dynamics.  or something.

You called?

The wine sits in a plastic bag inside the box. The bag is not attached to the box so that as the wine comes out the bag collapses. There is no need for replacement by air.

[tommy]

You called?

The wine sits in a plastic bag inside the box. The bag is not attached to the box so that as the wine comes out the bag collapses. There is no need for replacement by air.

would you agree that there will be wine in the creases that the bag will no doubt collapse into? i'm still not convinced that you'd have any kind of reasonable flow if the wine isnt being replaced by air, and if there isn't any outside pressure on the bag (which clearly there wouldn't be).

[g.johnson]

The bag is flexible. The pressure is exerted on the outside of the bag.

Fill a ziplock bag with water. Seal it, hold it up and puncture it at the base. I guarantee no air will enter.

[Stone]

gravity and air pressure.