Ducasse's Grand Livre De Cuisine

[francois]

Anyway, as tomorrow I'm cooking lamb, today I brought back a few pounds of lamb shoulder (Herdwick breed), and am following the intructions for the jus.

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As others wrote, great pictures! Thanks.

Was it good? Worth the extra effort?

[MobyP]

It was... good. But not great.

I repeated the process with some veal shoulder as there are so many recipes that include veal jus. And last night I enhanced my chicken jus for a roast with about half a cup of the veal jus - and it was outstanding. By far the most interesting, complex and flavourful jus I've ever made.

This time I really focussed not only on the browning process, but also the point of reduction where all the water/liquid evaporates, and the residue begins to fry in the fat, increasing the 'caramelisation' of the components (but making sure nothing burnt, obviously).

2 issues raised. I found that the end result had an almost citrus-y tang from the maillard flavours which was too strong. I added some more veal glace (from a former reduced stock) and this balanced out the flavours beautifully. The recipe says to de-glaze and moisten with a 'light veal stock,' but doesn't really give an indication of what that means (i.e. how light?). So, playing with the balance to get the flavour which suits you is important.

The second issue is the butter. When the jus is reduced and cooled, there's an enormous amount of butter fat and solids residue which floats to the surface, despite me straining the jus several times. It's too much. I realised that it's relatively simple to add butter notes later, but difficult to take them away. So - I cut off the butter (the cold stock is roughly the texture of soft rubber, making this a simple operation), and mounted the jus with a little cold fresh butter just before serving.

In the future, I'm going to lessen the butter from the operation, and skim it once the stock is added rather than keep it through the whole process.

Edited February 24, 2005 by MobyP (log)

[FaustianBargain]

The second issue is the butter. When the jus is reduced and cooled, there's an enormous amount of butter fat and solids residue which floats to the surface, despite me straining the jus several times. It's too much. I realised that it's relatively simple to add butter notes later, but difficult to take them away. So - I cut off the butter (the cold stock is roughly the texture of soft rubber, making this a simple operation), and mounted the jus with a little cold fresh butter just before serving.

Quick fix: Just add cold water and keep simmering. The fat will rise to the top. Skim. Reduce.

Question: I havent even flipped through the book or anything, but is it meant for cooks in the home kitchen?

Edited February 24, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[MobyP]

Not really. I think it's a way for Ducasse to annotate his recipes to pass them around his various restaurants - and of course for training purposes. I'm just the sort of home cook who takes the occasional pleasure from trying something a little more involved.

[FaustianBargain]

Not really. I think it's a way for Ducasse to annotate his recipes to pass them around his various restaurants - and of course for training purposes. I'm just the sort of home cook who takes the occasional pleasure from trying something a little more involved.

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Is it expensive? Not the book, but the ingredient cost of the recipes you tried at home. cost/yield?

[francois]

Is it expensive? Not the book, but the ingredient cost of the recipes you tried at home. cost/yield?

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Specially truffles. I just hate books with a lot of recipes using truffles. They just are too expensive for my purse, and for what they are worth (at least the canned variety we have around here). As a results, these recipies are useless, with probably hardly anyone ever trying them--they are mostly for show!

[MobyP]

Not really. I think it's a way for Ducasse to annotate his recipes to pass them around his various restaurants - and of course for training purposes. I'm just the sort of home cook who takes the occasional pleasure from trying something a little more involved.

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Is it expensive? Not the book, but the ingredient cost of the recipes you tried at home. cost/yield?

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No - but it all depends on how you approach what you're doing. In the case of the veal jus, I had four pounds of veal shoulder - one of the cheapest cuts of the animal. The other ingredients are veg, water, and a little veal stock (made from bones - even less expensive than shoulder).

(And by the way, once I had siphoned off the jus, I had the makings of a great veal stew for dinner - so it paid for itself twice.)

But placing truffles as an inhibition to this kind of cooking is ridiculous. If I want to do a duck dish, I can buy a supermarket duck for 5 pounds sterling. But for fuck's sake, it's going to taste like a five pound duck.

If I do my research, and find a duck hand raised, organic and free-range, it's going to cost me a lot more. Now for a thousand bucks - which one do you think will taste better?

For me, the point of getting into food is to find the best ingredients possible - not buying the most expensive for the sake of them being the most expensive - but the best for what you can afford.

I can go and buy a chicken reared in Bresse for around 24 pounds. Alternatively, and with some work, I can start to research alternatives, and I discovered (along with many others) a chicken raised in England under the Label Anglais tag, which is less than half the price (around 10 pounds), and equals the Bresse bird in flavour (according to all of the Michelin 3 star restaurants in this country). But the point is not the price - the point is the looking. The discovery. Finding the best you can, and doing the best you can with it.

[FaustianBargain]

Finding the best you can, and doing the best you can with it.

Excellent reply, Moby. Thank you.

[francois]

But placing truffles as an inhibition to this kind of cooking is ridiculous.  If I want to do a duck dish, I can buy a supermarket duck for 5 pounds sterling. But for fuck's sake, it's going to taste like a five pound duck.

For me, the point of getting into food is to find the best ingredients possible - not buying the most expensive for the sake of them being the most expensive - but the best for what you can afford.

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I perfectly agree with you about the importance of using the best ingredient possible and I certainly go to great lenght to do so, as well as getting to know the producers.

However, there are too many cookbooks with just too many recipes using ingredients that are either unavailable or just expensive beyond reason (like fresh truffles!). Truffles are not an inhibition to great cooking, but they are to some recipes. Of course, when these ingredients are not central to the dish, it doesn't really matter.

Great cooking does not depends on these outrageously expensive ingredients. Anyone can make a good dish with a ton of fresh truffles and foie gras (but not anyone can take a good piece of meat or vegetable and cook it to perfection).

[Lowblow]

Not really. I think it's a way for Ducasse to annotate his recipes to pass them around his various restaurants - and of course for training purposes. I'm just the sort of home cook who takes the occasional pleasure from trying something a little more involved.

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Is it expensive? Not the book, but the ingredient cost of the recipes you tried at home. cost/yield?

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No - but it all depends on how you approach what you're doing. In the case of the veal jus, I had four pounds of veal shoulder - one of the cheapest cuts of the animal. The other ingredients are veg, water, and a little veal stock (made from bones - even less expensive than shoulder).

(And by the way, once I had siphoned off the jus, I had the makings of a great veal stew for dinner - so it paid for itself twice.)

But placing truffles as an inhibition to this kind of cooking is ridiculous. If I want to do a duck dish, I can buy a supermarket duck for 5 pounds sterling. But for fuck's sake, it's going to taste like a five pound duck.

If I do my research, and find a duck hand raised, organic and free-range, it's going to cost me a lot more. Now for a thousand bucks - which one do you think will taste better?

For me, the point of getting into food is to find the best ingredients possible - not buying the most expensive for the sake of them being the most expensive - but the best for what you can afford.

I can go and buy a chicken reared in Bresse for around 24 pounds. Alternatively, and with some work, I can start to research alternatives, and I discovered (along with many others) a chicken raised in England under the Label Anglais tag, which is less than half the price (around 10 pounds), and equals the Bresse bird in flavour (according to all of the Michelin 3 star restaurants in this country). But the point is not the price - the point is the looking. The discovery. Finding the best you can, and doing the best you can with it.

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Hear Hear, I couldnt agree with you more MobbP, its not all about when you get there, some of its about the journey you had on the way. Finding an ingredient localy that is as good as the best imported French Lux et Volup ingrediant is a moment to cherish in its self.

Edited March 9, 2005 by Lowblow (log)

[francois]

I received my copy of the Grand Livre yesterday. It is HUGE! In comparaison, my Larousse Gastronomique looks like a poketbook!

At first glance it looks quite nice. Every dish is pictured. As was written previously, the recipes are often sketchy, and there are often no cooking times ('cook until done'), but that does not really matter.

As is often the case, truffles are over-represented (I have this thing against truffles which I find way over-valued and over-priced. I will probably change my mind about them when someone discovers how to cultivate them and when they can be grown locally instead of getting them from halfway around the globe). However, often the truffles are not central to the dishes.

These are not the kind of cooking that can be done on the spur of the moment. They take some planning (unless you have a freezer full of all that different stocks, jellies, etc.). However, overall the recipes do not seem very difficult to do. I was surprised to see that most are for 4 people. I had expected recipes for much larger groups. That is a good thing as it gives me less math to do.

Tomorrow I will be trying a fish dish with parsley sauce and bouillabaise sauce. I made the fish stock tonight. It looks nice. I was surprised by the large amount of oil (1 cup for 1/2 recipe - using 3 quarts of water and 5 pounds of fish). Same for the large amount of saffron (5 grams!).

[Fat Guy]

Four people would be a lot of people to cook for in a restaurant. Although mise en place is done for large numbers, most restaurant dishes at this level are made to order for one person.

I just got my copy of the English version -- now I have the French and English side by side on a shelf that is noticeably bending in the middle. So far, based on spending about 15 minutes with the books, I prefer the French edition. Even with my very limited kitchen-French, I can tell that the French is less awkward -- it would be nice if they'd bring an American or British editor in on these English-language editions, and also a recipe tester to QA the translations. Nonetheless, it's great that the book is out in English, even if it hasn't translated as well as it could have, because it will now be accessible to a much wider audience -- not just to native English speakers, but also to people in places like Japan, Israel, etc., where they're more likely to be able to get through an English book than a French one.

[MobyP]

These are not the kind of cooking that can be done on the spur of the moment.  They take some planning (unless you have a freezer full of all that different stocks, jellies, etc.). 

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The thing that has changed the most in my cooking is precisely this. I now have a freezer full of stocks, most reduced to demi or glaces for storage space. Chicken stock I replenish every 2 -3 months or so - usually buying around 10-15 pounds of bones. I used to include chicken feet or a trotter for body, but I found I prefer the simpler, purer version. I end up with around 10 - 12 litres of stock, which I reduce down to approximate 3 or so cups.

Veal stock lasts longer - probably 4 months - as it has more body and so I need less. A

I always strain and reduce any left over braising liquids, as they work very well for sauces.

As someone mentioned up thread, this book is great for inspiration on how to use components, as much as anything else. Having come across a copy of the Spoon book, I far prefer this one.

[francois]

Four people would be a lot of people to cook for in a restaurant. Although mise en place is done for large numbers, most restaurant dishes at this level are made to order for one person.

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Interresting. I did not know that. It makes a lot of sense.

Last night, I did the fish with parsley-bouillabaise sauce (p 242). Nice! Smelled great, looked great and tasted great. Even the kids loved it! I used some halibut. This is definetly something I will prepare again.

I must say that I am disapointed by the poor quality of the traduction/adaptation. Considering that most readers will be from outside of France, Ducasse should have made some effort to adapt the ingredients. What for exemple is a 'mountain potato'?

Also I don't know how he learned to convert C into F but many times he is way off. For exemple he instructs to cook the fish in a 176 F (180C) oven, or in the confit tomatoes recipe (p. 826), in a 94F (90C) oven. These temperatures are not at all equivalent. The C temperatures make more sense.

Some sentences are meaningless: 'Contrary to what is usually done, to treat the semi-dried tomato and confit tomato in the same way'.

Considering the price of the book, these errors should not be.

The glossary at the end is totally useless, with hardly any valuable informations (but with a few nice pictures).

[francois]

The ingredient lists somethime include 'lobsters, seconds'.

Does anyone know what that means?

[francois]

Ducasse uses 'veal jelly' in several of his sauces, to give them body I suppose. The jelly is made with calf's feet.

These are not available in my part of the world, apparently the slaughter houses just will not bother with them. (Keller also uses them as optional ingredient in his stock)

What would be the next best thing to use?

[chefzadi]

Ducasse uses 'veal jelly' in several of his sauces, to give them body I suppose.  The jelly is made with calf's feet. 

These are not available in my part of the world, apparently the slaughter houses just will not bother with them.  (Keller also uses them as optional ingredient in his stock)

What would be the next best thing to use?

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At home I wouldn't bother. The added "benefit" is not worth the trouble. But then again it's not my business to tell anyone how much trouble to go to.

But the veal jelly he is talking about that's made from calf's feet is basically gelatin. Gelatin is available in many forms.

[MobyP]

pig's trotters are a great substitute for adding gelatin and body. Easier also to get hold of.

Also, veal glace, which has a great amount of body - so long as the taste isn't too overpowering.

Edited March 19, 2005 by MobyP (log)

[chefzadi]

Some sentences are meaningless: 'Contrary to what is usually done, to treat the semi-dried tomato and confit tomato in the same way'.

Franglish to English. Two possibilities.

"Semi-dried tomato (sundried or oven dried?) and tomato confit are commonly used interchangeably, they should not be."

"Semi-dried tomato and tomato confit are not commonly used interchangeably, they can be."

[francois]

Last night, I made the scallops with brown butter vinaigrette (p. 723). Served them with a small salad of wild aragula. Very good. Easy and quick to do if you have some good chicken stoc around.

Also did some halibut (I like that fish!) with an adaptation of the peppery sauce (p. 105). Again, it was great!

These are two recipes that I will 'adopt'.

[MobyP]

I'm falling behind here. Thanks for keeping us up to date.

[francois]

Sometimes there are little steps that add a lot to a dish.

Whenever I can find nice fresh shrimps with the head on, I use the heads and shells to make a stock for the sauce. Ducasse goes one step further. He puts everything in the blender and then through a chinois (p. 156, 'prawn sauce').

Why did I not think of that before! It is simple, does not take that much more time and makes a very significant difference. Great sauce!

[chefzadi]

Sometimes there are little steps that add a lot to a dish. 

Whenever I can find nice fresh shrimps with the head on, I use the heads and shells to make a stock for the sauce.  Ducasse goes one step further.  He puts everything in the blender and then through a chinois (p. 156, 'prawn sauce'). 

Why did I not think of that before!  It is simple, does not take that much more time and makes a very significant difference.  Great sauce!

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It's the way to make bisque.

[francois]

Sometimes there are little steps that add a lot to a dish. 

Whenever I can find nice fresh shrimps with the head on, I use the heads and shells to make a stock for the sauce.  Ducasse goes one step further.  He puts everything in the blender and then through a chinois (p. 156, 'prawn sauce'). 

Why did I not think of that before!  It is simple, does not take that much more time and makes a very significant difference.  Great sauce!

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It's the way to make bisque.

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As you can see, I am really not a professional chef. I learned to cook reading cookbooks (thank you Julia!). Funny thing is that I made bisque several times but I never thought of using the same idea when making a sauce!

[MobyP]

Do you have a digital camera? Might you be able to take photographs for us?