Food Histories of the Toysan People

[Tepee]

This sounds like yet another things Chinese and Jewish people have in common. My grandmother liked to say that eating brains made a boy smart (I don't think that was anything sexist, as I come from a family with two boys and no girls, excluding my mother, of course ). My mother, on the other hand, hates offal and said eating calf brains would make me as smart as a cow!

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OH NO! Not another cow joke! (re: history of loveletters).

Claypot food's aplenty in Malaysia. There's a very good claypot chicken rice which I have once a fortnight. I'll remember you, Ben, each time I go for one.

[Yuki]

Um... I never knew that there are so many Toysan people on this board.My mom side is from Xinhui(an hour car ride from the Toysan area and further up from Guangdong) and my dad side is from Nanha(closer to Guangdong). My parents grew up eating lots of salty fish, Fan noong, fu yu, and pork fat(although this is not a surprise since many Hong Kong people grew up eating those food before the 1970s-1980s).

From talking to my mom, finally realized that we are all Cantonese but just from different regions............ this tell you how much I know about China.

[Seitch]

Wait: You're not supposed to eat the head?

Only if it faces you .

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Seriously. I ate the head of the garlic-roasted chicken at my father's 75th birthday banquet. Had we been Chinese, would he have had the honor of eating the head, or would no-one have eaten it, or what?

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Usually, at least with my family, who ever likes the chicken head or butt gets to eat it. More often than not this is one of the more elderly members such as grammas or grampa. Most kids probably wouldn't go for the head or butt.

[touaregsand]

Usually, at least with my family, who ever likes the chicken head or butt gets to eat it. More often than not this is one of the more elderly members such as grammas or grampa. Most kids probably wouldn't go for the head or butt

I always liked the butt. We call it "dong jeep" or shithouse in Korean. A little soy, garlic and red pepper flakes. YUM!!! I was a weird kid okay?

I dunno know 'bout the heads though.

[hzrt8w]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

For making it to your 500th post, you win dinner for two at "Ah Hee's Claypot Chicken Rice" Restaurant (airfare not included).  Ah Hee is the one with the apron.

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Excellent! Excellent! Claypot is my favorite. I love the Chicken/Black-mushroom, Beef-patty with a raw egg on top, Ham Yu and pork slices over rice. And the Je Je Gai claypot, mutton with tofu sheets claypot, fish paste with lettuce and tofu claypot... Bring them on!

Where is this Ah Hee's? Malaysia?

Do you have pictures of the one famous street food stand in Singapore who's famous for their chili crabs and curry crabs? I ate there only once. The experience is unforgettable.

Also, though haven't been there in person, I have seen footage of a street food stand in (where?) Singapore or Malaysia or ??? where they cook the Ong Choy and throw the entire dish of vegetable across the street and the waiter will catch it with an empty plate? Do you know the name of that one and any picture? They call it "Fay Teen Ong Choy [Cantonese]", which means Ong Choy flying in the sky.

[hzrt8w]

Um... I never knew that there are so many Toysan people on this board.My mom side is from Xinhui(an hour car ride from the Toysan area and further up from Guangdong) and my dad side is from Nanha(closer to Guangdong). My parents grew up eating lots of salty fish, Fan noong, fu yu, and pork fat(although this is not a surprise since many Hong Kong people grew up eating those food before the 1970s-1980s).

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Yuki: I think when you said "Guangdong" you really meant "GuangZhou". Guangdong is a province in China (equivalent to a "State" in USA). GuangZhou is a city, probably the most famous one alongside Hong Kong. Most villages are mentioned in their relative direction and distance from GuangZhou. GuangZhou's old English name (from the British's invasion in the last century to about 20-30 years ago) is Canton. Which got a lot of people confused by thinking Canton (the city) = GuangDong (the province).

Hong Kong, GuangZhou, Toisan are all in GuangDong.

We are all GuangDongRen (Cantonese).

[hzrt8w]

I like chicken necks because of the great skin to meat ratio....

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I like to chew on chicken neck too. It has skin attached, and usually not much fat. Others don't like it because it's so bony. So much the better, I have no competition. I actually like to chew on the bones. Neck bones are easier to crush than thigh bones or drum stick bones.

I leave the head and butt to others... I think one can eat the head. I don't like to eat chicken heads (a bit too big). But I LOVE fried pigeon heads! I chew and eat the whole thing, beaks and all.

[Dejah]

The one I'm familiar with is the crispy skin style that has been par-boiled in some kind of strong lo chap marinade, then hung to dry before deep-frying.

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The recipe that I've learned and have tried calls for marinating the inside of the chicken with salt and five spice powder. Then par-boiled in straight red vinegar to about half cooked. (5-10 minutes) Hung up to chicken to dry for half a day. When ready to eat, deep-fry the chicken to fully cooked.

I think the vinegar (acid) extracts the water out of the skin, and hunging up the chicken helps to drain the excess moisture under the skin. So the result after deep-frying is a very crispy skin on the chicken.

BTW: This is my 500th post. A big mark. What prize do I get?

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That seems like a lot of red vinegar? Would it not flavour the chicken?

I have used about 1/4 cup of vinegar to enough water to cover the chicken for the first step. The vinegar does make the skin crispy. I add a couple tablespoons of honey to the water also. This helps to produce a nice golden colour without having to deep fry for a long period of time.

Welcome! agog!

Speaking of fan noong, did your parents ever scrape it up, then gently squeeze it into a ball so your little hands can hold it and nibble on as you leave the table to go and play?

Or, cook fon see (sweet potato) chunks with the rice, then mash acouple pieces into the fan noong before adding water to make fan jeu?

Or, in lap mai fan, cook taro with lap yook, lap ap, then eat the meat sandwiched between slices of taro?

GuangdongRen = here comes your Cantonese and Mandarin, hzrt! And I get my Cantonese and Toisanese mixed together!

Guangdong YUN...Gongung geen...people of Canton (Guangdong). Right? Ben Gaw Gaw?

You really explained the Toisanese sounds well, Ben. I knew the sounds but never tried to express them in writing. You did say when you were visiting that you have made the study of our culture a lifetime effort. It really shows in your sharing of information. Thank you!

I noticed that, although many of us speak "Toisanese", there are also variants within this dialect. It all depends on where your village is in Guangdong. I must ask my Mom when she comes on Sunday for the "exact description" of our home.

LAKSA et all: Do you often cook with clay pot? I got a new one for Xmas and haven't used it yet. Any suggestions on how to prep. it for the first use? and how to keep it from cracking? No high heat...etc

Edited March 25, 2005 by Dejah (log)

[Louisa Chu]

If I haven't proclaimed my birthright already - let me proudly state that I'm of Toysan descent on my maternal side - or as my late, sainted grandmother would have said - Hoi-than. As for salted fish, I was reminded of it the other day when I was making a brandade gelatin fritter for an amuse-bouche. Funny.

[aprilmei]

[Dejah]

One other thing that was made a little different was the "joong".  She used to soak the leaves in our bath tub for about a week before using them.  There was always a large chestnut, a piece of fat about the size of your index finger and the bright orange egg inside.  She also used to make the square sweet one with the red jelly topping inside.  Does anyone know what that red material was or was it just food colouring?  I never ate it as a kid much preferring the traditional joong.

That's all I can think of for now.

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agog:

Check out my site for joong. http://www.hillmans.soupbo.com/soos/joongzi.html

I soak my bamboo leaves for acouple of days, then boil then in vinegar and water to keep them pliable. They are kept in water until I am ready to make the joong. Someone on the forum accused me of using alot of "lieu"! I use pork butt as one of the fillers. This is cut into 2 finger-size pieces and rubbed with coarse salt to "yeap-marinate" at room temp. for 3-4 days before they can be used.

I only make about a dozen of the sweet ones for my Mom for "boi seen". She uses gon suy and a piece of red stick in the middle - called doong slem (here's where Ben's explanation of thl sound comes into play) or doong heart. Other times, she may use red bean paste. I am not fond of it, but I love the savory one.

[Dejah]

Who here makes tonic soups? 

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Perhaps we need to revive the thread on Toisanese Soups? Let's see what comes up?

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=62746

[Laksa]

No, this was different - the chicken was cut up into pieces, marinated then battered and fried - it wasn't fried whole. And it was never sold in restaurants, only in Chinese fast food take-away places. but as I said before, this stuff was much better.

If anybody would know, it would be Louisa because she knows everything.    Louisa, do you know this Chinese fried chicken?

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Okay, I have had deep fried chicken wings from Chinese take-out places here in NY that have a thin and crispy coating of batter, but I don't recall tasting in the chicken any of the marinade ingredients you mentioned. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

My mum makes a deep fried chicken dish that uses the "Kentucky" brand seasoned flour coating , so I don't think anyone would think of that as being Chinese style. It's nothing like KFC either.

I guess you're talking about Chinese take-out places in LA?

Let's wait for what Louisa has to say.

[Laksa]

Dejah, I love to eat as much as I dislike cooking. I only ever see my mum simmering stuff in her claypot, so I guess low heat is a safer bet? I heard from someone that cooking congee in a claypot over a charcoal fire adds something "extra" to the taste of the congee... has anyone here had the pleasure?

hzrt8w, Ah Hee is in Malaysia. I told him you're coming so he's expecting you. Don't keep him waiting.

[Gastro888]

What I used to do in my parents' carryout was take chicken wings, dust it with some flour, yellow curry powder (forgot the brand name...has the Taj Mahal on it) salt, white peper and sesame oil. Knock 'em a bit in the pot and then deep fry the babies for some wing heaven.

Funny, I associated battered fried chicken with Western style not Chinese.

[Dejah]

No, this was different - the chicken was cut up into pieces, marinated then battered and fried - it wasn't fried whole. And it was never sold in restaurants, only in Chinese fast food take-away places. but as I said before, this stuff was much better.

If anybody would know, it would be Louisa because she knows everything.    Louisa, do you know this Chinese fried chicken?

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Okay, I have had deep fried chicken wings from Chinese take-out places here in NY that have a thin and crispy coating of batter, but I don't recall tasting in the chicken any of the marinade ingredients you mentioned. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

My mum makes a deep fried chicken dish that uses the "Kentucky" brand seasoned flour coating , so I don't think anyone would think of that as being Chinese style. It's nothing like KFC either.

I guess you're talking about Chinese take-out places in LA?

Let's wait for what Louisa has to say.

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Helen Burke's book Chinese Cooking for Pleasure (one of my first books) gave a recipe for stuffed chicken wings. I wonder if you used her "batter" if it would be close to what you are looking for. She dipped the pieces in beaten egg then into self rising flour flour before deep frying. That should produce a lighter and crispy batter.

I use a half and half of flour and cornstarch with some baking powder and a touch of oil. The mix is activated with a tbsp. of vinegar then mixed into batter with water.

I suppose you can marinate the chicken in a number of different ways...wine, soya, ginger, five-spice powder, etc...

[Pan]

No, this was different - the chicken was cut up into pieces, marinated then battered and fried - it wasn't fried whole. And it was never sold in restaurants, only in Chinese fast food take-away places. but as I said before, this stuff was much better.

If anybody would know, it would be Louisa because she knows everything.    Louisa, do you know this Chinese fried chicken?

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Okay, I have had deep fried chicken wings from Chinese take-out places here in NY that have a thin and crispy coating of batter, but I don't recall tasting in the chicken any of the marinade ingredients you mentioned. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention.[...]

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There's a cart that's sometimes on Canal St. between Mulberry and Baxter (near the little triangle) in Manhattan's Chinatownthat sells deep-fried chicken wings that are tasty. I don't know what recipe they use, of course.

Edited March 25, 2005 by Pan (log)

[Gastro888]

Dude, Pan, I've had the chicken leg from that cart. It WAS tasty but holy moly Ah Sook oversalted that leg. I felt like I was eating a tasty salt lick. I would say it's an egg based batter with curry powder. I'm telling you, that jar of curry powder holds the secret to goooood fried wings.

[Laksa]

Other times, she may use red bean paste. I am not fond of it, but I love the savory one.

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'When I was a kid, we never got to eat red bean paste joong. We only ever ate plain joong because our family couldn't afford the ones with fillings. On my birthdays, I'd receive a teaspoon of sugar for dipping. As for meat in joong, what an outrageous luxury! Maybe that's something millionaires might eat.'

Okay, that's probably something my Dad would say.

[hzrt8w]

That seems like a lot of red vinegar?    Would it not flavour the chicken?

I have used about 1/4 cup of vinegar to enough water to cover the chicken for the first step. The vinegar does make the skin crispy. I add a couple tablespoons of honey to the water also.  This helps to produce a nice golden colour without having to deep fry for a long period of time.

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You are probably right. It's been a long time since I made it. I might have diluted the red vinegar with water. Because it's so much work, and that the Chinese Fried Chickens are so readily available where I live, I have no incentive to make it again. Probably wouldn't hurt to dilute the vinegar a little bit.

GuangdongRen = here comes your Cantonese and Mandarin, hzrt! And I get my Cantonese and Toisanese mixed together!

Guangdong YUN...Gongung geen...people of Canton (Guangdong). Right? Ben Gaw Gaw?

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True, huh? I did it so naturally! GuangDongRen [Mandarin] = Gung Dung Yun [Cantonese]

I noticed that, although many of us speak "Toisanese", there are also variants within this dialect. It all depends on where your village is in Guangdong. I must ask my Mom when she comes on Sunday for the "exact description" of our home.

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That's kind of like living in Hong Kong, many speak a variation of Cantonese (accent mostly, or just call things in their own dialect but with Cantonese pronounciation).

[hzrt8w]

hzrt8w, Ah Hee is in Malaysia.  I told him you're coming so he's expecting you.  Don't keep him waiting.

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Which city in Malaysia? I may have a business trip opportunity flying in to KL in coming months. Is Ah Hee in KL? If so, what's the address?

BTW: do you know about that "Fay Teen Ong Choy" show? Is it in Malaysia too?

[hzrt8w]

I found a couple of on-line maps to show you where Toisan is relative to Hong Kong and GuongZhou (Canton):

Here is the map of South China. With Hong Kong at the center.

In the following map, the areas circled are Toisan (roughly), GuangZhou and Hong Kong.

[Ben Hong]

First time (1991) I went back to my village, near Chek Sui (Mandarin: Chi Xi), was a trip that will always live in memory.

Holy hannah, what an experience the trip was. First I missed the train in Guangchou by waiting at the wrong gate (don't read Chinese), then after I got off the train in Toisan City (Taicheng) I had some "problems" with the independent taxi drivers (after I threw one to the ground, the others scattered), spent the night with my very patient cousin in the Wah Kieu Hotel, which was absolutely and disgustingly filthy, hired a car to take us to our village. On the way we almost killed five separate people, clipped an oxcart loaded with sugar cane, definitely killed a piglet and 3 ducks, and got the bejezus scared out of me. Spent an afternoon visiting old childhood memories and inspected the school we all chipped in to build. Visited my father's grave and generally had a grand time. On the way back , I left by hydrofoil out of Guanghai or Kwong Hoi for a 2 hour ride to HK.

On my second visit 4 years later, things were 100% better and nowadays it's almost "too easy".

[Laksa]

Which city in Malaysia?  I may have a business trip opportunity flying in to KL in coming months.  Is Ah Hee in KL?  If so, what's the address?

BTW: do you know about that "Fay Teen Ong Choy" show?  Is it in Malaysia too?

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Ah Hee is on Jalan Alor, KL. His address is kinda flexible because he cooks on a cart.

I have never heard about the fay teen ong choy show. If that's in Malaysia, don't order that dish if there are birds flying in the vicinity. If the birds don't eat the ong choy, they might contribute something to it.

[Dejah]

Ok, Po-Po was over for her weekly supper. She directed me to cook "halibut trimmings" for supper. She said this is one of her favourite Toisanese dishes.

First I had to "hok ah" the fish... in other words, season and brown in the hot wok. I had also pan fried some tofu squares. Then I cleaned the wok and fried up some slivered ginger, garlic and tangerine peel. Add the fish back on top of the aromatics, add fermented black beans, splashes of light soya and cooking wine. Top with green onion and simmer for about 10 minutes. It was delicious! Her only disappointment was "no fish head".

While eating, I asked her for the exact description of our house in Toisan. She said,

" Hoi Saon, Ngai Kui, Lungpan Toon, Oiy Gong Hu".

Can anyone understand that?