Kershaw Shun Knives

[slkinsey]

Sorry maybe this is a newbie question, but if you don't hold a chef's knife by the handle, how do you hold it?

From Marsha (zilla369) Lynch's excellent eGCI course on basic knife skills are these two pictures of a "pinch grip" on a chef's knife:

Is this pretty much a universally accepted way to hold a chef's knife? Or are there variations? Just curious...

As far as I know, the pinch grip is the "classic" way to hold a chef's knife, and is what is taught in culinary schools, etc. This is the grip you will see most professional cooks using, as well as the pro-trained cooks on television programs, etc.

In my experience, the pinch grip offers a lot more control and confidence with a chef's knife than holding the handle. This is especially true if the "handle holder" puts his or her index finger on the spine of the knife, which makes the grip even more unstable. I firmly believe that most people who are uncomfortable with a large (e.g., 10-inch) chef's knife are made uncomfortable due to an inherently unstable and unwieldy handle grip.

[RETREVR]

Once in a while I even move a second finger up to join my index finger.

Big chefs knives (11") are often blade heavy. This is ok if you keep the tip on the board(dicing carrots). Once in a while I will have the big knife in my hand and have to make a few delicate cuts. This is when I move my second finger foreward. All this does is move my hand foreward in order to ballance the blade.

My 8" Shun is ballanced. If I were to move my hand back to the handle it would make this knife(and virtually all chefs knifes) blade heavy.

Again...most other styles of knives are to be held by the handle. Paring knives end up being held in many different ways.

[JC]

Hey JC, help me understand I always thought the Kershaw's were some form of faux damascus finish and not the true results of constantly folding the metals...

The Shun comprises 3 parts, a central core of VG-10 steel and on both sides of the core, the damascus. This is what is typically called a "san mai" construction. The damascus sides on the Shun are folded metal (16 layers I think), but it is important to note that the damascus in this case is not meant for cutting, just for aesthetics (or finish as you call it). The cutting is done by the core steel. The Bob Kramer knife you showed is the same, the damascus on that is at the sides and the cutting core is 52100 steel.

In a true damascus knife, the whole blade is damascus (not just the sides) and it is meant to cut. In such a case, the metals that are being folded are of a different type/grade and heat treated to high hardness. This differentiates it from the damascus in the Shun knives, which is purely for cosmetics. Looking at Bob's site, he also has knives which are true damascus.

Edited December 6, 2004 by JC (log)

[Afterburner]

For all you folks who have and use a Kershaw Shun, what's their durability like?

I am going to be upgrading my knife collection (current model: 13-piece Farberware knife set, complete with rust spots (they came later, though), which cost around $100, that my wife and I got as a wedding present), and, well, given the choice of several like items of approximately equal quality and price, the deciding factor usually ends up being "whichever one looks the coolest."

And I have to say, I really like the look of the Shun knives (though I need to find someplace local that carries 'em so I can see how they feel in my hand).

But one of my friends cautions me that the current enthusiasm for Japanese knives is just a "fad," and that Japanese knives, being lighter and thinner, are much more "delicate" than the heavier, thicker European knives, and thus need to be kept far away from such things as, for instance, chicken bones, lest they get all nicked up.

Does his assessment in any way reflect reality? Or is he just being his usual curmudgeonly self?

Can you use a Kershaw Shun Chef's Knife as vigorously as you could use, say, an F. Dick Chef's Knife, lopping off the ends of chicken leg bones and chicken wings and so on?

[bleachboy]

My primary knife is a 10" Shun Kershaw chef's knife. My wife's primary knife is an 8 or 9 inch, I can't remember.

I use and abuse my knife and I love it. I hone it faithfully (on a Dick Multicut) before each use. I have used it to hack through chicken bones and stuff a few times, but I usually use my cleaver for that sort of chore.

It's held up like a trooper. It maintains an awesome edge. I love the shape of the handle and the heft. Whenever I use any other knife I hold it with disdain -- it just doesn't feel as good as my 10" chef's. I would definitely recommend it, and would buy it again. I went through a number of other knives that just didn't measure up before I settled on the Shun Kershaw.

EDIT: And on the subject of Japanese knives being a "fad" -- the Shun doesn't feel or act like a typical Japanese knife. I'd say the shape is much more western and it is a heavy knife. The shape of my chef's knife, I guess you'd call it French? I'm not a knife expert, but it's neither thin nor lightweight nor unusually shaped.

Edited January 28, 2005 by bleachboy (log)

[bilrus]

I always thought that the Japanese steel is harder than the steel used in the German knives, allowing it to hold an edge longer. That certainly seems to be the case with the Shun Santoku that I have.

[slkinsey]

A harder steel can keep an edge longer, but it also takes a lot longer to get it sharp again once it does go dull. Hard steel is also usually more brittle and prone to chipping.

This is not to say that harder steel isn't as good as softer steel... but it's also to say that it isn't definitely better either. It's always a tradeoff of sorts wrt hardness. Full carbon knives go in the opposite direction. They're soft and lose their edge fairly rapidly... but at the same time they return to a razor's edge with a swipe along a steel or a brush across a stone Is one better than the other? Not really. Just depends on what you want.

[JohnN]

After hanging out a bit on the forums mentioned in your other thread, which, ironically, was motivated by checking out the Shun knives, I'd say that the general consensus is that cutting bones with a Japanese knife like the Shun Classic is not recommended.

This is mainly because they are 1) harder, and 2) have a more accute angle than most of the German chef's knives. This means they are both more brittle and have a thinner edge.

HOWEVER, it is also the case that most people who try them find these shortcoming are outweighed with the advantages. Cuts easier, holds an edge longer, lighter, no bolster.

I suspect most people do what I do. Keep one knife for this purpose. Currently I have a Henckels Four Star for this purpose (part of my original set) and at some point I'll replace it with a Messermeister Meridian Elite.

-john

Edited January 31, 2005 by JohnN (log)

[Behemoth]

I love my shun, but I would never hack through chicken bones with it. I use poultry shears or a cleaver for that kinda thing. Come to think of it, I would never use my heavy german chef's knife to hack through chicken bones, either.

[EdS]

You can pick up a cheap heavy Chinese cleaver that you can chop up chicken bones all day with for around $10.

[RETREVR]

A harder steel can keep an edge longer, but it also takes a lot longer to get it sharp again once it does go dull.  Hard steel is also usually more brittle and prone to chipping.

This is not to say that harder steel isn't as good as softer steel...  but it's also to say that it isn't definitely better either.  It's always a tradeoff of sorts wrt hardness.  Full carbon knives go in the opposite direction.  They're soft and lose their edge fairly rapidly... but at the same time they return to a razor's edge with a swipe along a steel or a brush across a stone  Is one better than the other?  Not really.  Just depends on what you want.

←

Lets not forget that harder steel can hold a more accute edge which gives better cutting performance. Chipping can be an issue. I use hard Japanese steel 99% of the time. If I need to chop hard stuff I use my Wusthof....even then I usualy end up with a tweeked edge.

It depends on the high carbon steel we are talking about. Most of the high carbon Japanese steels can be hardened way beyond what you would find in German stainless. Even very hard carbon steel is sometimes fairly easy to put an edge on, and keeps that edge for a very long time. Carbon steel like old hickory knives is soft, easy to sharpen, and will not hold an edge very long.

In my book the trade-off with hard Japanese carbon steel is cosmetic.

[Melanger]

I purchased the 8 inch chefs knife as a special treat for myself a few months back. Within two weeks of using it at work (gentle things like slicing melons) the blade corroded and had major chunks knocked out of the cutting surface. It was the strangest thing I have ever seen knife wise. I returned it to the store (sur le table) and they graciously exchanged it for a new one which has been pressed into service at home (too nice for work). It has been great and hubby is developing some nice knife skills courtesy of the sharpest edge in our kitchen. I was wondering if anyone else has had a problem with deterioration of the blade or did I somehow wind up with a defective one...

[EdS]

I've never heard of such a thing. The wild speculation on my part is that the knife was left for some time in high-strength or highly-heated chlorine solution, assuming the problem really is corrosion.

Stainless Steel Corrosion

Stress Corrosion Cracking

I'm pretty much clueless on the subject, so please forgive me if I'm way off base, but maybe you'll find something in those links that'll be interesting.

Edited August 20, 2005 by esvoboda (log)

[firedogut]

I know there have been a few posts on the shun knife but most are at least 1yr old, some being up to 2 years old.

for every one who owns this knife how has it held up over time? Any issues or do you still love the knife?

I just got my set of shun knives and love them. I paid $215 for a 7 piece set

7" Santoku

6" Utility

9" Bread Knife

3 1/2" paring knife

kitchen shears

9" Steel

11 slot bamboo block

I was amazed on the price......most stores sell similar 7 piece sets for $420-$450 vs the $215 i paid.

Now i want to add a chef knife, and maybe one other. i am also looking for a good Cleaver for less then 20 bucks, any out there?

next thing is a new pan set........

[ScorchedPalate]

I still love my Shun santoku, but I find it doesn't sharpen as well, nor hold an edge as long, as my big (non-Shun) chef knife.

~A

Edited September 29, 2005 by ScorchedPalate (log)

[k43]

i am also looking for a good Cleaver for less then 20 bucks, any out there?

←

Bridge has nice Chinese cleavers, $24.95 for a big one and $42.95 for a really big one.

Bridge Chinese cleavers

I have the smaller one, which works very well. However, I had to do a little alteration. The edge along the top is flat with sharp corners, which can draw blood from your cutting hand knuckle if you use the "chef's grip" with your thumb and index finger pinching the blade. This needs to be rounded over -- a relatively simple job with a fine metal file and various grades of fine sandpaper.

[wattacetti]

Have the 10" chef's and boning knife from the Shun Classic; the nakiri, 4 and 8" deba, and the 8 and 10" yanagiba from the Pro line.

They're harder to sharpen than the Wustofs I've used in the past, but I'm getting better at it with the waterstones; I do not use a steel on any of the blades, though I'm trying to find a ceramic one for the two Classics. Finish and edges on all the knives have held up quite well (hand-wash, immediately dry).

I've had to adapt a bit with respect to the single-bevel design of the Pros (the knives naturally want to turn in clockwise as you cut), but I haven't regretted my purchases. The nakiri and the longer of the two yanagibas have turned out to be my favorites, but that's a personal use thing. I do get use out of all of them.

Anyway, suggest you visit your local Chinatown for a cleaver.

[Octaveman]

Shun has come out with a new line of knives called Shun Elite and only sold through SLT. Powder steel core surrounded by damascus. They look real nice and with the powder steeled core, they will hold their edge much longer than before. They are expensive though. Tojiro and Ryusen have powder steel knives that are awesome too and are cheaper. You can find them Here and Here. The blazen is higher-end so the handle quality is better than the Tojiro but the blades are the essentailly same.

Cheers,

Bob

Edited September 29, 2005 by Octaveman (log)

[Gustatorian]

i am also looking for a good Cleaver for less then 20 bucks, any out there?

If I may suggest a low-end cleaver that can do anything (including trim small branches),: Lee Valley Chinese Cleaver

and if you need a set of pans, try Paderno, from PEI Canada.Paderno Pots for Eternity

[Human Bean]

for every one who owns this knife how has it held up over time? Any issues or do you still love the knife?

I've only had my Shuns for about a year, but they continue to hold their edges well, are easy to sharpen, and a joy to use.

[Berlinsbreads]

I just ordered a Shun Chef's knife and I'm wondering what type of sharpener I should get for it? I don't own any of those "automatic" sharpeners because I heard on a cooking show that they can be bad for high end knives. I have an OLD stone but I'm thinking I would like to get a new stone or device for sharpening my knives. Besides this new Shun I'm getting, I own a Henckles classic Chef's knife, a Mac Santoku and various paring knives. I use a steel on them right now. Any suggestions??

[Berlinsbreads]

Also, has anyone here used the Alton's angle Shun knives? If so, do you like the angle on these? What about the special "Ken Onion" knife?

[D & R Sharpening]

I do not use a steel on any of the blades, though I'm trying to find a ceramic one for the two Classics.

Hi wattacetti,

May I suggest looking at "HandAmerican's Glass Smooth & Ceramic Steels". Price is no factor as you won't find better products of this kind anywhere.

Oh, and on your single beveled (chisel ground) knives, be sure to steel only the beveled side. The reverse side (flat side) must be layed down flat on a polishing stone (just like sharpening) even when steeling.

--Dave--

PS - Hi there Bob (octaveman) - Nice to see you.

[slkinsey]

May I suggest looking at "HandAmerican's Glass Smooth & Ceramic Steels". Price is no factor as you won't find better products of this kind anywhere.

I both agree and disagree with this statement. I agree that these are fantastic products. I own both the glass smooth and ceramic steels from HandAmerican. I disagree that price is no factor, however. Fortunately, this consideration seals the deal in HandAmerican's favor. $35 for a smooth steel by HandAmerican? A smooth steel by F. Dick will cost close to a hundred bucks! Everyone should have the glass smooth and ceramic steels from HandAmerican.

[D & R Sharpening]

May I suggest looking at "HandAmerican's Glass Smooth & Ceramic Steels". Price is no factor as you won't find better products of this kind anywhere.

I both agree and disagree with this statement. I agree that these are fantastic products. I own both the glass smooth and ceramic steels from HandAmerican. I disagree that price is no factor, however. Fortunately, this consideration seals the deal in HandAmerican's favor. $35 for a smooth steel by HandAmerican? A smooth steel by F. Dick will cost close to a hundred bucks! Everyone should have the glass smooth and ceramic steels from HandAmerican.

←

Hi slkinsey,

I should've been more clear with my statement as I agree 100% with yours.

--Dave--