El Bulli--From wonderful to absurd

[Bux]

I still feel Joe's question--would you eat shit if it was served at El Bulli, is just like asking when you stopped beating your wife.

[slkinsey]

Sam, forgive me. Where did I get the idea you spent some childhood time in the NC woods? 

Have a family house in the mountains of Western North Carolina. Had plenty of souse meat, head cheese and the like there... but no squirrel brains.

[Jonathan Day]

To add to the list of "delightful, disgusting" things: fugu, the poisonous blowfish eagerly sought after by Japanese gourmets; Asian sauces made by fermenting fish guts; mushrooms grown in horseshit; rhubarb, whose poisonous leaves surround succulent stems; vegetables (taro?) that require hours of treatment to remove their toxins; blue cheeses whose odour (says Korsmeyer) is "rather similar to the smell of bile or vomit"; durian fruits.

[slkinsey]

Taboos are socially constructed.

As Carolyn Korsmeyer points out in her recent article "Delightful, Delicious, Disgusting" (The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism 60:3, Summer 2002, 217-225) the line between the disgusting and the delicious can be a thin one...

This is an interesting and salient point, Jonathan. Steingarten has remarked several times that newborn children are not repulsed by the sight or smell of rotting and/or maggot-infested meat.

[MatthewB]

Sam, forgive me. Where did I get the idea you spent some childhood time in the NC woods? 

I've plenty of ideas.

Edit: Gee, gosh, golly. Oh, wait. Gee, isn't this thread about El Bulli rather than (. . . left unsaid . . . )?

Edited November 4, 2003 by MatthewB (log)

[Joe H]

Bux, I apologize if I seemed disrespectful. That was not my intention at all. Rather, I believe that I am just taking the argument that El Bulli is pushing the culinary edge and exploring new, perhaps even taboo (to some/to some cultures) "food" as the next level of development. A level that he may have to ascend/descend to for new ideas. Certainly, some of what is currently being served represents a creative, adventurous attempt to discover new tastes, textures, temperatures and sensorial experiences. At some point it would seem to me that he will be forced to cross a boundary, as it were, and attempt to reintroduce that which was formerly unacceptible to many, but in a palatable form, perhaps even a more than acceptible form that might represent a new, even enlightening perspective for viewing that which formerly was branded as disgusting. Having said all this (and I do realize this argument is epistemological) there must be some line that is crossed. I'm just asking where is the line? Is it far enough along that excrement-in some form-is acceptible? Is it far enough along that a human placenta is acceptible? (http://www.tabloid.net/1998/05/29/D3.html) is an interesting link for this, providing documentation for this as a foodstuff to some, fried with garlic and televised on British television. Or is the line beyond this?What if El Bulli had served the garlic fried placenta? Would that have made it any more legitimate?

And, then of course, how many on this board would push themselves along that line just because it is being drawn by El Bulli?

Anyway, all of this is only cerebral. I have no interest in this restaurant, no interest in the direction it is going and no interest in the type of "food" it is serving. There are some things which simply aren't going into my mouth for any reason. Some of what is being served at El Bulli is among this. But this is me. And it is not important that I sway anyone else's opinion on this board. Yet I am curious how far some of you will go and that is why I bring up the examples that I do.

[slkinsey]

Interesting thoughts, Joe.

I wonder to what extent the aesthetic and intellectual aspects of food can be separated from the sensual and gustatory pleasure aspects. For me, for example, one of the main pleasures of single malt scotch has been intellectual. I like the fact that one can taste the peat, the sea, the heather and the oak and glean something about the place of origin, raw ingredients, distillation process and subsequent treatment. Whether or not it tastes really good is, in some ways, secondary to my enjoyment. In fact, an argument could be made that well-done blended scotches taste better than single malt scotches but are not as intellectually interesting.

Certainly I can envision food that might be very interesting from an intellectual standpoint but might not necessarily taste all that great. And, for me, I am willing to go down that path to a certain extent. But I am sure everyone has a certain distance they are willing to travel in that direction. For most people I imagine there is some minimum level of sensual and gustatory pleasure they feel must be met. This has real parallels in the music and art worlds. For example, although Maria Callas has legions of admirers and was undoubtedly a great interpretive artist, I have always had trouble listening through her technical flaws and the fact that her voice often sounded like a cat being beaten with, er, another cat. These considerations are, it seems, quite relevant to El Bulli, but might make an interesting wider topic all on their own.

[Bux]

First no problem with a little disrespectfulness on the board anyway, assuming it's done properly with good intentions. I guess I'm left behind in that I haven't had the sense Adria was at all interested in the taboo. I didn't see the food going in that direction or coming from that direction. I suppose he mixed salty with sweet in a way that was not part of our culinary vocabulary, but I don't think of that as breaking taboos. This is what he does though. He plays with tastes and textures, but always with things that are natural to eat in his culture. He emulsifies things, he freezes them, he explodes them, he liquifies them and he combines flavors, but I havebn't seen him work with nasty things. I think you've been illserved by the comments made by that chef and pointed in the wrong direction. I would not be surprised to find the same items he uses, on the menu in, say, Michel Bras or Georges Blanc. What is surprising is how he uses these foods. Perhaps one of us should make a list of all the foods he's used and see where that leads us.

[robert brown]

What happened to Albert Adria's terrific chocolate desserts or his ice cream? What about the thoroughly magical dishes such as the mojitas, the dehydrated popcorn and pizza-flavored toast? How about the wit of a dish that combines in a fun-to-eat and witty way the two most common products of Italian cuisine: Parmesan and spaghetti? On and on it goes, but you can read more about delicious, mind-boggling Adria dishes in my write-up from the summer of 2002 and "Eight at el Bulli" that Jonathan Day and I wrote for the Daily Gullet. Believe me, Adria cares about how his clients respond to his dishes. Someone in the kitchen looks at the plates that come back from the dining room and a maitre d'hotel will ask you why you left a dish nearly untouched. I don't think Ferran is deliberately about to serve shit, both literally and figuratively. This doesn't mean that he won't try something that may surprise or shock people in unpleasant ways. I have had several dishes there that didn't work for me and that I did not enjoy eating in the course of 25-30 dishes. It just means that when you go there, Adria is experimenting with what many have called "experimental" food.

[Boris_A]

On tradition, Adria's cooking and the use of anachronistic ingredients (i.e. rabbit brain)

An architectural analogy:

Can this work Stone House, Tavole, 1988 by Herzog&DeMeuron - a combination of most tradtional ingredients (drystone) with a concrete framework - classified as traditional? or modern? or neomodern?

Same question for the Dominus Winery, wall detail, also by Herzog&DeMeuron.

In my opinion the use of archaic (traditional) ingredients in a modern arrangement is the landmark of neomodernism.

[Bux]

It just means that when you go there, Adria is experimenting with what many have called "experimental" food.

I absolutely agree with what you say there and how you express it, with the possible exception that I'd modify the last sentence to note that although any dish served may be perceived as "experimental," it has been thoroughly tested in Adria's kitchen/laboratory and probably perfected. I may have felt an experiment has gone awry, but I never felt lke a guinea pig. Perhaps I should add that at no time in two meals did I ever feel as if I was participating in a fraternity hazing. I think that's the feeling some may have about El Bulli and I feel it's totally misguided.

[Jonathan Day]

This doesn't mean that [Adria] won't try something that may surprise or shock people in unpleasant ways. I have had several dishes there that didn't work for me and that I did not enjoy eating in the course of 25-30 dishes. It just means that when you go there, Adria is experimenting with what many have called "experimental" food.

Just to build on Robert's cogent point. The Adria brothers are turning over almost the entire repertoire of el Bulli at least once a year, if not more often. "Restless" rather than "experimental" would be the term I would apply to their work. They never seem satisfied.

Hence the cooks at the French Laundry have, by now, probably cranked out millions of salmon and creme fraiche "ice cream" cones and servings of "oysters and pearls", all of them delicious. A noble effort, one worthy of respect. But this is not Adria's way. Last year's foams become this year's encapsulations which turn into next year's "airs". This is highly risky cuisine. Not everything will work for every diner. The "caviar of ceps" that we had, for example, was to me acceptable but (as food) not thrilling. Its package was charming, and the form of caviar challenging -- it just didn't taste that good.

Given that in a meal of 30 courses el Bulli can serve up

• 10 that are outstanding (and I include delicious in that)
  
• 10 that are very good and intellectually challenging
  
• 7 that are just good
  
• 3 where you scratch your head and say, "I didn't get that"
  

is absolutely remarkable, especially given that of those dishes perhaps only 1 or 2 was served in the prior year. And the prices for the food and wine are so generous that there is very little risk involved, beyond getting to Roses in the first place.

(I am just making these numbers up, by the way -- the performance in our meal was for me more like 15 outstanding, 9 very good, 5 good, 1 "I didn't get that").

[degusto]

You are really spot on Jonathan. I think the difference between Adria and others is his relentless desire to try to innovate and challenge his own ideas and creations like no one else does. This should be rewarded. How many French or other chefs can you say that about?

I think we should criticize French chefs in particular for not trying harder than they do. Over the last six years or so what has happened? Ducasse serves more or less the same food at ADPA and at Louis XV. Troisgros serves more or less the same food. It is the same with almost all the other three star restaurants in France where I have been. Even Michel Bras has undergone very minor changes in this sense. The only chefs that I know that at least to some extent have tried to renew what they are doing are Passard and Gagnaire, but it pales in comparison with Adria. Should we not demand more from these chefs at the prices some of them have started to charge? You should now expect to pay around 300 euros for just the food at certain Parisian three-stars not to mention the ridiculous prices at Veyrat for partly Adria inspired food.

A recent meal at L’Ambroisie highlighted this. Although the meal was technically as perfect as you expect from Pacaud, who is probably the only chef that is actually cooking, the aftertaste of a bill that make you feel you paid by the spoon makes the meal hard to digest. Considering the lack of changes of the food over the last ten years just makes it harder.

Adria may be the only top chef who truly lives for his food. Others are more interested in branding and opening up new restaurant ventures. I am sure that if Ducasse spent as much time renewing himself as he is spending on opening up new restaurants, his cuisine at his top restaurants, if he had only two, would be quite different.

I think it is Adria's commitment to food, joy and enthusiasm that are the reasons why he will be remembered as one of the greatest chefs ever. If he is able to come up with 60 to 80 new dishes a year and we only find even a third or a fourth of those truly great, so what? Some chefs like Ducasse have not been able to come up with that many original dishes in ten years. Ducasse’s big cookbook that cost more than 200 euros is a great example of the lack of creativity and innovation. There are probably some 400 recipes in this complete work of Ducasse’s cuisine, although I haven’t counted. When you look at it in detail you realise that preparations are doubled. Asparagus are served with morels and morels are served with asparagus. Similar prepartions are made with just different fish species or different meat and so on. So if you take away all the doubles how much is left? 100 or 200 dishes? Maybe a few more, I don’t know. But it is hardly impressive, when you consider all the people working for Ducasse and all the restaurants he has, that he cannot produce more than that.

I still think the best food is served in France and that will be the case for a very long time. The French restaurants are more consistently turning out high quality products. But I am getting fed up with the greed and the lack of innovation and spirit among French chefs and their lack of interest in the food. Although my experience from that time is limited, I think that French chefs on the top level where more interested in their food in the eighties than they are today.

Adria should be hailed for being interested in the food and for his desire to challenge himself and to innovate. This thread has really taken a lot of absurd turns. But on the other hand people may have been inspired by the header.

[bourdain]

Adria, at all times, serves dishes that he believes to be--in the traditional sense of the word--"good". At the same time, the El Bulli mantra is to "never repeat", to always seek new ways to do things, to find new ways to delight. Almost all the dishes I had at El Bulli were takes--or expressions of traditional concepts, done in surprising or startling new ways. Most of the time, it worked--often brilliantly. Other times, ( "cherries in fondant"--actually cherries slathered in Iberico ham fat) not. Adria likes to use the example of Iberico ham as an example of "good" transformation--an example of "processed" food being "better" than it was in original form. ("Jamon is "better" than raw pork).

He's not looking to get people to eat the inedible--through guile or chemistry. He IS looking to find new ways to treat food he sees as overlooked or undervalued. An example being the peach. At the Taller, I watched him experimenting--again and again--with slicing and caramelizing peach slices in such a way as to mimic a pan-seared tranche of foie gas. The idea being that the customer might approach the finished dish (when perfected) with the same high expectations as for foie.

Adria is asking Big, difficult questions--of himself, of his customers, of chefs in general. But I think--and this is my own opinion--that what he's really trying to do is use ever means available to reinvent (as if for the first time) something as simple as a peach or an egg. Or, as he told me, sitting over a plate of impeccably fresh, tiny, simply cooked sea cucumbers (espardenyas?) at Rafa's; "THIS is what I want. This is what we are trying to do at El Bulli. To remind us of Rafa's." He took particular pride at dinner serving a dish made entirely from the meat, shell, and guts of a fresh ecrivisse-no other ingredient--an attempt to "get" the experience of sucking the head of a really fresh crayfish (as at Rafa's).

So, in a sense, he is genuinely trying to play God. If he could "make" an apple, I am sure he would--and I see nothing wrong with that. That he--unlike any before him I'm aware of--is trying--and in such a heartfelt way-- is admirable. Few others who are toiling in the same fields have succeeded. It's very dangerous ground. As Eric Ripert said, "There's only room in this world for one Ferran Adria, maybe two. NOT three or four."

I found it particularly interesting--and very telling--that on a recent trip to Paris, both newer, trendy restaurants I ate at were shamelessly duping some of his older concepts.

The most telling detail about the Adrias is Ferran's choice of favorite eateries: a ham shop in Barcelona where they serve simple, unadorned plates of sliced jamon--and cans of tuna and clams--and a simple grill-in-olive-oil-and-salt joint in Roses. Alberto, his brother is enthralled by a sushi place down the street from the lab--and claims to find much inspiration there.

The "lab" aspect of what they do has been, I think, overstated (by me among others) BEFORE we actually ate at El Bulli.

It is, I found, damn near useless to try and talk about Adria until you've experienced what he does first hand. The disconnect between how the food "sounds' when described and even "looks" is considerable. The efforts of his imitators are--sadly--more often than not--unencouraging. But There are very good reasons why El Bull is the number One destination for travelling chefs. While easy to dismiss in principle--it's not so easy when you've eaten there.

[Bux]

Actually, for one paricular French chef (in Washington DC?) is was easy to dismiss Adria's food as shit after eating there. After reading Tony's rather eloquent post, I think very few people are going to accept the idea that Adria intends, or succeeds, in serving crap to his guests. It's unfair perhaps, for me to berate a chef or his opinions, if he's never going to post here and I suspect said chef is not a likely eGullet member because I see no evidence of an interest in thinking about food or cooking beyond that which he already excels in doing. I've had bad meals from chefs who seem to be trying to emulate Adria. I've had meals that were most unsuccessful and still left me curious as to what the chef might eventually accomplish. I have a hard time with conservatism that's blindly defensive.

Tony's post may not be the best or most definitive post on Adria, but it's one of the most compelling for dealing with both the simplicity of Adria's concerns with the underlying metaphsyical aspect of recreating the world. I think it's fair to express the opinion that cherries in ham fat tastes like shit, but only so long as one makes it clear that one knows it's really not shit. I don't know if French chef knows the difference, or if he just can't explain it as well as Bourdain, but I have a need to put down statements I feel encourage people to limit their outlook and a similar reaction in the other direction when I read perceptive posts like this one.

By the way, I think it's "espardenyas" in Catalan and "espardeñas" in Spanish, but I have a terrible memory and am consequently a terrible speller. We had a long and informative discussion on this subject, but the information therein is overshadowed by my memory of "sea cucumbers" at El Bulli and Can Fabes. Sometimes eating is better than talking about food.

[Elissa]

I think it's fair to express the opinion that cherries in ham fat tastes like shit, but only so long as one makes it clear that one knows it's really not shit.

Is that like saying, it seems as if some people on eG spew mostly tripe, but really I know it's just words?

Edited November 6, 2003 by Elissa (log)

[pedro]

By the way, I think it's "espardenyas" in Catalan and "espardeñas" in Spanish, but I have a terrible memory and am consequently a terrible speller. We had a long and informative discussion on this subject, but the information therein is overshadowed by my memory of "sea cucumbers" at El Bulli and Can Fabes. Sometimes eating is better than talking about food. 

You're almost right, Bux. That's the proper spelling in Spanish, but in Catalan I believe it's "espardenyes".

[Bux]

By the way, I think it's "espardenyas" in Catalan and "espardeñas" in Spanish, but I have a terrible memory and am consequently a terrible speller. We had a long and informative discussion on this subject, but the information therein is overshadowed by my memory of "sea cucumbers" at El Bulli and Can Fabes. Sometimes eating is better than talking about food. 

You're almost right, Bux. That's the proper spelling in Spanish, but in Catalan I believe it's "espardenyes".

Yeah, but I was absolutely right when I said I had a terrible memory and am consequently a terrible speller.

[mongo_jones]

Or, as he told me, sitting over a plate of impeccably fresh, tiny, simply cooked sea cucumbers (espardenyas?) at Rafa's; "THIS is what I want. This is what we are trying to do at El Bulli. To remind us of Rafa's." He took particular pride at dinner serving a dish made entirely from the meat, shell, and guts of a fresh ecrivisse-no other ingredient--an attempt to "get" the experience of sucking the head of a really fresh crayfish (as at Rafa's).

The most telling detail about the Adrias is Ferran's choice of favorite eateries: a ham shop in Barcelona where they serve simple, unadorned plates of sliced jamon--and cans of tuna and clams--and a simple grill-in-olive-oil-and-salt joint in Roses. Alberto, his brother is enthralled by a sushi place down the street from the lab--and claims to find much inspiration there.

as someone who will likely never be able to afford to buy the el bulli cookbook, let alone eat there, i have been enjoying this discussion a lot. i've been taken especially by comrade bourdain's evocative critiques of adria's philosophy and practice. reading the excerpts above, however, i have to ask: is the el bulli experience truly revelatory only for people (chefs or gourmands) who have been ingrained in the classic french idiom and now need to be (re)awakened to different ways of thinking food? can the rest of us plebs just eat at rafa's to begin with and not worry about returning our taste-buds to a place/time where we can appreciate it?

yes, yes, i am a crass philistine. but we eat too.

[Jonathan Day]

There is far more to Adria than a reactionary strike against classic French cuisine, even though that is where he started. His simplicity is different to a place like Rafa's. That's why the ideal move would be to dine at both restaurants.

El Bulli's prices are reasonable, for what they provide. For most of us, the cost of getting to Roses far exceeds that of dining at el Bulli.

[vserna]

There is far more to Adria than a reactionary strike against classic French cuisine

Shouldn't a strike against classicism be termed "revolutionary" rather than "reactionary", Jonathan?

[Jonathan Day]

You are right, Victor -- "reactionary" implies a retrograde move. In fact we could dispense with the adjective altogether and just talk about "a strike against classical French cuisine".

[mongo_jones]

There is far more to Adria than a reactionary strike against classic French cuisine, even though that is where he started. His simplicity is different to a place like Rafa's. That's why the ideal move would be to dine at both restaurants.

El Bulli's prices are reasonable, for what they provide. For most of us, the cost of getting to Roses far exceeds that of dining at el Bulli.

yes, well the cost of getting there would not for me be separable from the cost of the meal--i'm not planning any trips to spain, and if i was my extra money would be invested instead in a game at the bernabeu or the nou camp.

as for the first point, i don't think you've fully addressed my question--which to be fair i may not have fully articulated. let me put it this way: does el bulli make sense without an immersion in particular traditions/idioms of cooking. what does el bulli, or adria, have to offer, for instance, to someone who has spent their entire life eating sichuan or bengali food? in other words, is the el bulli phenomenon (whatever you make of it) possibly understandable only within a particular european food context? if so, is this context really so important that goings on in it need to be talked about as embodying the future fate of all food?--i'm not saying that anyone here is directly making that claim; but it seems to me to be the surreptitious subtext of the conversation (not just on egullet): that high cuisine=particular european traditions.

from a less fraught angle i am trying to make sense of his rafa's comment. he says that is what he is trying to get to via his bleeding edge route. what does that mean? that rafa's evokes a sense of the purity and simple wonder of food and he is trying to surprise/shock people into returning to that point? well, does everybody require that surprise and shock--or is it only a particular set of diners (whether the adjective we use to describe them is highly aestheticized or decadent)?

also, his chemical/culinary experiments to create food puns and hybrids (i'm making him sound like the dr. moreau of expensive food)--how are these qualitatively different from the long tradition in chinese cooking of making soy proteins and gluten resemble and taste like pretty much any meat you want? i'm not saying he's doing exactly the same thing but the idea itself has been explored in great detail and with great versatility in another culinary tradition (albeit one that doesn't usually get a seat at the banquet table of "high" cuisines). if it isn't the novelty or originality of his food camoflauge that's significant, what is?

i'm not trying to come down hard on el bulli--it sounds very interesting, if not entirely appetizing--just trying to understand the terms of the discussion. i'm sure these are not entirely original questions--i tried reading the entire thread but the rabbit brains excursus did me in--so please forgive me if i am retreading worn ground.

[Bux]

what does el bulli, or adria, have to offer, for instance, to someone who has spent their entire life eating sichuan or bengali food?

Excellent question and one I'm not in a position to answer. I wonder if anyone who's not spent their entire life eating sichuan or bengali food, could answer with any accuracy. The only way I could begin to approach the concept might be to ask myself would I enjoy or appreciate the food of a revolutionary chef in India, Pakistan or any part of the world, where my appreciation of the finesse of the traditional food is limited. My guess is that you'd find it interesting, but not necessarily more so than many simpler but exceppent examples of local cuisine.

When I first had lunch at El Bulli, there was a large group of American and Canadian hikers and bicycle riders having lunch. There meal finished shortly before ours did and we got to talk to a few of them out on the terrace after lunch. It turned out that none of them were foodies. Many had not been to Europe before and none of them were the kind of people who did the gastronomic circuit's in France. They were all rather well off financially and most were rather middle aged, but exceptionally healthy as one might expect from bikers and hikers. They had all signed up for a luxury athletic tour of Spain and the organizers booked the best restaurants. They all seemed to love the food in spite of not having much experience in classic haute cuisine. Their experience would not be analagous to yours as they all had life long exposure to western food, but their palate was not trained to appreciate classic haute cuisine. To an extent, they were less aware of the creativity involved, but in another way, they were far more open to new ideas than a more trained palate might be. We've had testimony here that a well known French chef cooking in America thought his meal tasted like "merde."

[pedro]

Interesting questions, indeed. IMHO, I would summarize them in two:

a) Do you have to be aware of a context to notice a change in it?.

I think you have.

b) Would you be able to appreciate the results of that change on their own foot?.

Again, yes. Why not?. When I first tasted Indian food in a restaurant in Madrid, I found it enjoyable and interesting, having no clue regarding whether I was sampling the most avant-garde cuisine made in India, or an ultra classic version of their most traditional dishes.

The underlying issue I believe you're raising is what's more valuable in Adria's cooking, a) or b). For me, probably a).

Edited November 29, 2003 by pedro (log)