El Bulli--From wonderful to absurd

[Bux]

If everything you hold dear in based on cultural relativisim - then we really don't have anything to discuss - because you're looking at the world through eyes that are totally different than mine.

[robyn]

I like all the people who put forth the various analyses of how fine cuisine has changed over the years, usually in the phrase "the trend towards this" and "the trend towards that"; the end of haute cuisine; the mixing of various cuisines; dishes that purport to show that cooking is art; tasting menus with small portions; 15 teensy courses; and on and on. The biggest change, however, is that the food that great restaurants threw out 15 years ago was that which the kitchen never used versus today's garbage, which is the food the customer didn't finish. One day soon everyone will realize that change in how we dine is determined at its roots by economic considerations. This is why there are fewer great chefs that many experienced eaters have a curiosity in (and Adria leads in that department, at least for me) and why they are often just as happy to dine in an "old-fashion" restaurant where the cooking bears some resemblance to evocations that are more than a chef's "statement". To me, tapas are, and should remain, bar food. It is unfortunate that they now do service as the meal itself. I can see their appeal to chefs, however. They can be prepared ahead of time and they create less waste. The worst, however, is that too many high-profile chefs have taken all the challenge and the romance out of high-end dining. It is becoming increasingly more a matter of "you eat and drink what I tell you, or tough luck".

I have to disagree with Miguel about discovering the qualities of a restaurant. I like to go in as wet behind the ears as possible at a restaurant I have never visited. The cleaner the slate your present, the better notion you will have of how a restaurant handles its general clientele. In fact, I find my analytical powers compromised even if I go with people who know the waiters and chef or have some kind of a leg-up on a place. I know that if the staff is kind and generous to me, it is because of some combination of how they perceive me and how forthcoming they are.

I have no idea how old most of the people here are. I'm close to 60. In my experience - tapas was the stuff you ate in Spain between 7 and 9 because you were starved and most restaurants didn't serve dinner until at least 10. I never handled jet lag very well - so when in Spain - my head would usually be in my plate by 10. Found it very practical to eat a nice leisurely lunch - and have tapas for dinner - then go to sleep. I'm not saying the tapas wasn't good. Some of it was very good - but it just wasn't a meal - and it was never meant to be a meal.

By the way - I agree with you about the service and reception one should get arriving at a restaurant as a stranger. It may be more or less formal depending on the nature of the establishment - and more or less friendly depending on the nature of the country/city you're in. But it should always be professional. Of course - if one is not a stranger - one should expect more - but - sadly - sometimes you don't get it. I will never ever go to Le Bernardin in New York. It used to have an outpost in Miami where my husband and I dined frequently. Same corner table for two every time. We were good customers. My husband spent some time in a hospital - and the first week I arrived at the restaurant alone - I really needed to get out a bit - I was shown to a horrible table in the bar next to the kitchen door. Had some words with the staff - but Maguy Le Coze wasn't about to give a good table to a woman dining alone - no matter how good a customer she was. Didn't make it through that meal - and never returned - even after my husband recovered. I've received similar treatment at restaurants when traveling on business alone. Perhaps "women dining alone" would be a good general acid test of how restaurants treat their customers. Robyn

[vserna]

in any event, what comrades serna and parsons seem to miss in their more than not-quite condescending takes on posts made by me, boris_a and others is that we are quite clearly not talking about the food at el bulli. in fact, this is made quite clear in many of the posts. what we were discussing/attempting to understand was aspects of adria's theory and philosophy of food and relating it to larger cultural narratives. i don't quite get what the problem with such discussions is or why they need to be predicated on prior ingestion, digestion and excretion of the actual food at el bulli. adria is a food theorist. people are presumably buying his books for more than the pretty pictures. are you suggesting that this aspect of his work is not to be taken seriously?

Oh. Oh. I'd suggest the word "comrade" applies more to those who want to turn Ferran Adrià into what he is not nor does he intend to be than, for instance, to me. Manipulation and tergiversation of a person's thoughts is a typical exercise in totalitarianism... So please don't consider me a "comrade".

Your tirade gives me a better understanding of this whole discussion: not only do several posters ignore Ferran's actual cuisine, but they haven't read his books, either.

[pedro]

[...] To me, tapas are, and should remain, bar food. It is unfortunate that they now do service as the meal itself. I can see their appeal to chefs, however. They can be prepared ahead of time and they create less waste. The worst, however, is that too many high-profile chefs have taken all the challenge and the romance out of high-end dining. It is becoming increasingly more a matter of "you eat and drink what I tell you, or tough luck".

[...]

Robert, I'm not sure I fully understand your point. I'm assuming that you enjoy El Bulli and Adria's cooking, which is highly influenced by the concept of tapa, as Adria himself has acknowledged.

The whole concept of tasting menu and almost imposing it to the customers, as noticed to me by several chefs, makes the kitchen work more as a factory, with all the advantages in terms of consistency and optimizing the delivery of dishes, and all the disadvantages of losing the artisan touch, than as a workshop. And at least in Spain, I'd say Adria has been the champion of this dining experience, though back in 99 it was possible to order a la carte at El Bulli. Surely, given the amount of R&D he invests every year to create almost completely new menus, he's well justified to do so and I believe he overcomes the shortcomings around this way of dining.

PS: Robert, you should post to this forum often, we miss your contributions.

[Bux]

I would also argue against any attempt to define what tapas are or should be, in the way I'd argue against anyone who would set limits as to what painting can be. As long as I'm free to rant against any particular bar or presentation, I fully support the chef's right to get creative. There are any number of places in Donostia alone, that double as tapas bar and restaurant. The joy of eating in these places in not diminished by the choice to eat a meal or a snack or to combine your intake from the restaurant menu and the bar menu.

There exists in Spain, or at least in parts of Spain, a joy of eating that surpasses formality. I enjoy tapas as bar food and the restless tourist that I am enjoys the practice of hopping from bar to bar for opportunity to sample the different ambiances as much as the different food. At the same time, there were many bars l visited on my last trip that I might have been happy enough to find a table and work my way through the various offerings over a leisurely "meal" that would be very similar in nature to a tasting menu. Miguel would probably prefer to do that, and I have some sympathy for that preference. I have to acknowledge that I returned to certain bars on a second night and that I believe several bars had the potential to offer a complete dinner, bite by bite, that was every bit as satisfying as most meals I have had and as well balanced in spite of the the tendency of bars to specialize in their offerings.

I would also noted that there are tapas bars that specialize in hot offerings and many that offer both hot and cold tapas. It's probably true however, that the hot tapas often lend themselves to reheating.

Dinner at El Bulli is, as Pedro says, "highly influenced by the concept of tapa." I'd also note that commenting on 25 courses being too much to eat is exactly the sort of thing Russ and Victor seem to have spoken about in their demands that one eat the food before talking about it. I have come out of both American restaurants in the US and French restaurants in France, feeling far more stuffed, than I felt when I left El Bulli.

[robyn]

I would also argue against any attempt to define what tapas are or should be, in the way I'd argue against anyone who would set limits as to what painting can be. As long as I'm free to rant against any particular bar or presentation, I fully support the chef's right to get creative. There are any number of places in Donostia alone, that double as tapas bar and restaurant. The joy of eating in these places in not diminished by the choice to eat a meal or a snack or to combine your intake from the restaurant menu and the bar menu.

There exists in Spain, or at least in parts of Spain, a joy of eating that surpasses formality. I enjoy tapas as bar food and the restless tourist that I am enjoys the practice of hopping from bar to bar for opportunity to sample the different ambiances as much as the different food. At the same time, there were many bars l visited on my last trip that I might have been happy enough to find a table and work my way through the various offerings over a leisurely "meal" that would be very similar in nature to a tasting menu. Miguel would probably prefer to do that, and I have some sympathy for that preference. I have to acknowledge that I returned to certain bars on a second night and that I believe several bars had the potential to offer a complete dinner, bite by bite, that was every bit as satisfying as most meals I have had and as well balanced in spite of the the tendency of bars to specialize in their offerings.

I would also noted that there are tapas bars that specialize in hot offerings and many that offer both hot and cold tapas. It's probably true however, that the hot tapas often lend themselves to reheating.

Dinner at El Bulli is, as Pedro says, "highly influenced by the concept of tapa." I'd also note that commenting on 25 courses being too much to eat is exactly the sort of thing Russ and Victor seem to have spoken about in their demands that one eat the food before talking about it. I have come out of both American restaurants in the US and French restaurants in France, feeling far more stuffed, than I felt when I left El Bulli.

" 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less.' " (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland)

Words have meanings. If you look up tapas in my Spanish menu reader - it's defined as "in between meal snacks". In my very large Spanish/English dictionary - it's defined as " an assortment of tidbits and appetizers served with wine or cocktails". If a couple in Madrid asked me and my husband to join them for tapas at 7 - I wouldn't think it necessary to cancel my dinner reservations. So you can define it however you want. To most of the world - the word has a definite meaning. I will just have to remember to ask you for your definition should you ever ask me to join you for tapas (depending on your definition - my husband might not approve <smile>).

Ditto for painting. You can call a pile of cow dung a painting if you care to - but it isn't.

None of this means that a chef can't be creative - or that someone can't sit at a bar and make a meal out of tapas. Just like one can make a meal out of "appetizers" at a bar. My husband and I frequently do - we'll also sit at a bar and split a meal for one into a meal for two. It can be great fun - and we can have some very good - sometimes excellent food. But it isn't fine formal dining.

I frankly don't have a distinct recollection of the hot or cold versus hot/cold places. I just know that my particular favorite was always angullas. Think it was the garlic lover in me that found that particular dish appealing. And I don't recall dishes being reheated.

By the way - for those of you who might be in Spain - I mentioned that I disliked it. My reason was simply that I encountered a lot of anti-American sentiment when I traveled there. Too many "OTAN NO" wall paintings in various towns. And I unfortunately speak enough Spanish to be drawn into political arguments when I'm sitting at those tapas bars. Individual people were nice on a one-on-one basis (people in the Basque country would even speak to us in Spanish <smile>). But it got depressing after a while dealing with pervasive anti-American sentiment. No offense intended to your country - that's just how I felt. Robyn

[robyn]

If everything you hold dear in based on cultural relativisim - then we really don't have anything to discuss - because you're looking at the world through eyes that are totally different than mine.

I may be mistaken, but the beauty of a place such as eGullet is that intellectual discussions may be held between those whose eyes and whose cultural values are totally different.

[mongo_jones]

It would be like walking out at midnight - and having a heated discussion with someone about whether it was night or day.

well, during the long nights near the arctic circle this could be a little confusing. especially if your watch stops.

[robyn]

It would be like walking out at midnight - and having a heated discussion with someone about whether it was night or day.

well, during the long nights near the arctic circle this could be a little confusing. especially if your watch stops.

I have a nice quartz watch - never stops <smile>.

It would be nice to get back to the beginning of this thread - which started basically - I had one terrific meal - and one pretty terrible meal at this restaurant. I know I'm not going to be in Spain next year (UK yes - Spain no) - so I won't have the opportunity to eat at El Bulli. But if I happen to get to Spain in 2005 - and assuming everything stays the same as it is today - which it should with a 3 star restaurant - they shouldn't change that quickly - do you recommend it - or not - and why?

And do you recommend or not recommend a place like La Broche in Miami (branch of same restaurant in Madrid - related by technique and chef to El Bulli)? Why or why not? I will be in Miami next month - so this is definitely doable. Is it a great meal - or simply weird and overrated. (Note today's article in the Wall Street Journal - 10 most overrrated restaurants in the US).

Life is full of philosophical questions. When I eat - I don't want a lot of existential philosophy - I just want some good - very good - or great - food (for good I can cook at home - for very good or great - I have to go elsewhere). Robyn

[Bux]

" 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less.' " (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland)

Words have meanings.  If you look up tapas in my Spanish menu reader - it's defined as "in between meal snacks".  In my very large Spanish/English dictionary - it's defined as " an assortment of tidbits and appetizers served with wine or cocktails".  If a couple in Madrid asked me and my husband to join them for tapas at 7 - I wouldn't think it necessary to cancel my dinner reservations.  So you can define it however you want.  To most of the world - the word has a definite meaning.  I will just have to remember to ask you for your definition should you ever ask me to join you for tapas (depending on your definition - my husband might not approve <smile>).

Words have meaning and those meanings change. I suggest you pick up various editions of a dictionary to see how quickly some words change. Nevertheless, dictionaries, at best, confirm how a word has been used up until the time of publication. Both of your definitions are incomplete and they certain aren't in agreement. I have a Spanish/English dictionary that defines "tapas" as "appetizer, free lunch," but it's too heavy from me to carry around and there's the possiblity I can't persuade the guy behind the bar to believe it, even if he can understand English.

[robyn]

<<I have a Spanish/English dictionary that defines "tapas" as "appetizer, free lunch," but it's too heavy from me to carry around and there's the possiblity I can't persuade the guy behind the bar to believe it, even if he can understand English. >>

A suggestion (serious one). If you are going to travel a lot - especially in western Europe - take some language courses. It's not that hard to learn Spanish (it's totally phonetic) - and it's a useful language in the US. Once you know Spanish - it's easy to add some Italian. A little Spanish and Italian both go a long way. People are flattered that you've taken the effort to learn their language. French is a lot harder in my opinion - and I have to say that a little doesn't go a long way. My husband and I both speak Spanish - he better than I (we spent many years in Miami). But whenever we want to pick up a bit of a new language - enough for restaurants - hotels and sightseeing - a semester or two at a local state university will do the trick (with Italian - which isn't offered at our local schools - my husband wound up taking private lessons). Regards, Robyn

[balex]

  It would be like walking out at midnight - and having a heated discussion with someone about whether it was night or day. 

This is way off topic, but this is not a very good example. All you are saying is that there are some things that you are so sure of that you are not prepared to discuss them. And in this class of propositions you are adding American foreign policy and the defiinition of 'tapas' a word in a language that is not your native tongue.

To most of the world - the word has a definite meaning.

With respect, the word has a very different meaning in England and Spain, and probably also in America, just as other words do like 'entree'.

And Bux -- brush up your language skills -- you are lowering the tone here!

[robert brown]

Pedro, It is nice to know someone misses me. Thank you.

I love tapas as much as whoever is sitting along with me at a tapas bar. I was only trying to point out that there is a trend, in keeping with the New Dining Parsimony, that leaps on tapas and uses them as a kind of shortcut. . I think if you want to make a meal out of tapas, you should call a spade a spade and do it at a tapas bar. While Adria includes what he calls "tapas" in his menu, they are only a smallish proportion of the entire dinner. I sense, however, that more chefs are leaping on the "tapas" bandwagon at the expense of other ways of cooking. I avoid these places, so I cannot really say to what extent this is taking place.

While I am at it, here is my latest hypothesis about Adria and el Bulli. I think you have to see the restaurant as an extension of the "taller" (studio/laboratory) in that it is the testing or proving ground for what he and his colleagues develop there. I don’t think Ferran is primarily interested in being a restaurant chef these days, which is not to say he doesn't care about running an honest, high-class operation, which el Bulli is. However, el Bulli exists primarily to propagate what the el Bulli principals refer to "our way of cooking", which is why chefs can always obtain a reservation and aggressive, well-connected foodies get the lion's share of the other tables. However, regardless of who you are, you do not go in there expecting that, unlike what other great chefs attempt, the goal is to please you to the maximum, or hope that every dish does.

Earlier this year, I believed that to "get" what el Bulli was about depended much on one's sensibilities. Now, however, I believe that you have to think of yourself as a guinea pig as much as anything, realizing that Adria will throw at you whatever he wants. Still, he wants to know how people react to it. (There are people in the kitchen taking note of what comes back untouched or lightly touched). If Adria wanted to use el Bulli so that it becomes a part of the lifetime dining experiences of as many people as possible, he would find a way (which obviously he can't) to comfortably return to serving lunch and keeping the restaurant open seven days a week in the shoulder months. Meanwhile, however, he is also attacking gastronomy from every angle, documenting and sharing his work and influencing what we eat regardless of the club-like nature of the el Bulli restaurant.

[Bux]

<<I have a Spanish/English dictionary that defines "tapas" as "appetizer, free lunch," but it's too heavy from me to carry around and there's the possiblity I can't persuade the guy behind the bar to believe it, even if he can understand English.  >>

A suggestion (serious one). If you are going to travel a lot - especially in western Europe - take some language courses. It's not that hard to learn Spanish (it's totally phonetic) - and it's a useful language in the US. Once you know Spanish - it's easy to add some Italian. A little Spanish and Italian both go a long way. People are flattered that you've taken the effort to learn their language. French is a lot harder in my opinion - and I have to say that a little doesn't go a long way. My husband and I both speak Spanish - he better than I (we spent many years in Miami). But whenever we want to pick up a bit of a new language - enough for restaurants - hotels and sightseeing - a semester or two at a local state university will do the trick (with Italian - which isn't offered at our local schools - my husband wound up taking private lessons). Regards, Robyn

Perhaps I should have mentioned that Spanish is my wife's first language. Unfortuantely all of my in-laws, cousins included speak English fluently. Thus I've not learned as much as I should have in the past forty years. On the other hand, it's given me the incentive to jump ahead in Catalan and Euskara, at least in terms of menu items. Neither of us are really fluent in French, but our daughter is married to a Frenchman and we get by even when with her in-laws. I could, and have here on eGullet, tell tales related to my ability to communicate what I want when I'm hungry. I've relied on dictionaries and phrase books as well as menu translators and know to take then all with a grain of salt out of experience.

[robyn]

<<I love tapas as much as whoever is sitting along with me at a tapas bar. I was only trying to point out that there is a trend, in keeping with the New Dining Parsimony, that leaps on tapas and uses them as a kind of shortcut. .>>

<<However, el Bulli exists primarily to propagate what the el Bulli principals refer to "our way of cooking"...>>

Hope you don't mind some questions.

What do you think the signs of the New Dining Parsimony are? And to what do you attribute the Parsimony - if it's something other than trying to eke out a profit in a business where it has always been difficult to make a profit - and where it's become increasingly difficult the last couple of years? I live in a golf resort area which is a suburb of a metropolitan area - and I know business spending at hotels/restaurants went into a big tail spin for about 2 years. It started to come back this spring - but it still hasn't recovered to pre-2000-2001 levels. Even our best restaurant - it's not comparable to the best in New York of course - but it's pretty good - run by a former head chef at the local Ritz Carlton - has been forced to sign up with IDine to try to attract customers Monday-Thursday.

Also - what - in your opinion - are the principal hallmarks of the El Bulli "way of cooking" (I am sure that I will stumble on a disciple of the school - if I haven't already - and I'd like to understand what the chef is trying to accomplish with the food I'm eating). Thanks, Robyn

[Bux]

And Bux -- brush up your language skills -- you are lowering the tone here!

English or foreign language skills? I've already got one editor sending me e-mails with spelling corrections.

[robyn]

<<Perhaps I should have mentioned that Spanish is my wife's first language. Unfortuantely all of my in-laws, cousins included speak English fluently. Thus I've not learned as much as I should have in the past forty years. On the other hand, it's given me the incentive to jump ahead in Catalan and Euskara, at least in terms of menu items. Neither of us are really fluent in French, but our daughter is married to a Frenchman and we get by even when with her in-laws. I could, and have here on eGullet, tell tales related to my ability to communicate what I want when I'm hungry. I've relied on dictionaries and phrase books as well as menu translators and know to take then all with a grain of salt out of experience.>>

OK - so you cheat having a Spanish as first language wife. We had to start from scratch . We get by fine in Spanish in most places - it's almost a necessity to speak Spanish in Miami for business purposes. It's just difficult sometimes to understand the very idiomatic Cuban or Puerto Rican Spanish (it's much easier in Spain - or talking with people from places like Columbia). And - we did fine in Italian when my husband was current. French is always a problem. No matter how much you study - the French will always make you think you haven't studied enough - that they can't possible understand you. They're worse than Jewish mothers in terms of guilt.

With regard to menu readers - I bought some very good ones back in the 1970's. Written by a fellow named Al Ellison. He was a Cornell hotel school grad/law school grad who lived in Miami Beach. I met him years later when we wound up living in the same condo. He's older than us - and was a "foodie" before there was such a thing as a foodie. His readers are excellent (still have them) - not at all like more commercial books - they actually helped us to read menus! I'm not sure whether he's dead or alive now - but I'd bet a few bucks that the books are out of print. They're worth looking up on a web site like Alibris. I'm sure they're out of date in terms of newer trendier dishes at the most expensive restaurants - but they'll cover all the basics of a local cuisine. Take care, Robyn

[Bux]

Robert, I'd not likely to subcribe to any tight pigeon holing of Adria or El Bulli, but your old and new hypotheses fit well enough within my range of thoughts. Ferran Adria is the most accomplished cook in the western world today--undoubtedly the most important one as well--but he's a thinker, or in todays parlance--an idea man--above all else. His thinking doesn't stop at the kitchen. Just one example is his consultancy with nH Hotels where he's been tapped to help them not with consultation on a menu, but on a basic rethinking of what restaurant is and how a hotel restaurant might function in the future. I think I can say that in support of what you've already said.

I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with the trem "guinea pig" in relation to his clientele, but I'll agree that his natural audience is composed of chefs and dedicated diners with a natural curiosity and tolerance for experimentation. I'm resistant to the term "guinea pig" only because I feel that he's done the ultimate experiments and has already perfected the dish before he serves it at El Bulli. That the newness of the dishes and the general level of his creativity insure a certain kind of risk is undeniable, so this becomes a matter of semantics as may any difference we have regarding tapas and dinner.

[robyn]

  It would be like walking out at midnight - and having a heated discussion with someone about whether it was night or day. 

This is way off topic, but this is not a very good example. All you are saying is that there are some things that you are so sure of that you are not prepared to discuss them. And in this class of propositions you are adding American foreign policy and the defiinition of 'tapas' a word in a language that is not your native tongue.

To most of the world - the word has a definite meaning.

With respect, the word has a very different meaning in England and Spain, and probably also in America, just as other words do like 'entree'.

And Bux -- brush up your language skills -- you are lowering the tone here!

I only have 2 things to say in response to your post. One's a statement - one's a question.

The statement is simply that I have lived in multi-cultural environments for my whole adult life. I never dismiss people who speak English as a second language when they have something to say simply because they frequently say it in bad - poorly accented English. I do not expect to be dismissed simply because I am speaking a language as a second or third language.

The question is: What is the definition of tapas in England - and what is the definition in Spain? (I suspect we have more Spanish speaking people from different Spanish cultures in Florida than England does - but I'm willing to hear what people in England think it is).

By the way - if I recall what I said correctly - I said that food things were trivial compared to the issues that I thought were "beyond discussion". But - even though they're comparatively trivial (if I didn't say it before - I'll say it now) - I'd like to know the proper Spanish and English definitions of "tapas". Robyn

[pedro]

The question is:  What is the definition of tapas in England - and what is the definition in Spain?

I can cover the spanish side of the question. Acording to the Dictionary of the Spanish Royal Academy of the language (Diccionario de la Real Academia Española de la lengua:

Tapa: "Pequeña porción de algún alimento que se sirve como acompañamiento de una bebida" or "small piece of some food served as complement of a drink".

[pedro]

I love tapas as much as whoever is sitting along with me at a tapas bar. I was only trying to point out that there is a trend, in keeping with the New Dining Parsimony, that leaps on tapas and uses them as a kind of shortcut. . I think if you want to make a meal out of tapas, you should call a spade a spade and do it at a tapas bar.[...] I sense, however, that more chefs are leaping on the "tapas" bandwagon at the expense of other ways of cooking.

Robert, I believe we're more or less in agreement here. However, I tend to think that the tasting menu as the only practical choice, that many restaurants nowadays intend to impose, are worse than the tapa approach you describe.

In this site, a quality that seems to be highly appreciated in a restaurant is consitency, the ability to provide day in day out the same dining experience. For sure, having a tasting menu almost as the single choice, helps a lot to get that consistency. However, I'd prefer to some extent to have some ups and downs, and give room to some degree of experimentation and risk. It would increase the probabilities that if you only pay a visit to the restaurant in long periods of time, something could be not so good as you would expect. But when I think of the restaurants I go at least once a month, they share the pattern I've just described.

[balex]

To most of the world - the word has a definite meaning.

snip

I do not expect to be dismissed simply because I am speaking a language as a second or third language.

snip

The question is: What is the definition of tapas in England - and what is the definition in Spain?

Sorry, my previous post comes off as a bit harsh. I am not dismissing you; I am merely saying that (as a linguist) I consider the evidence of a non-native speaker of the definition of a word is not conclusive. And thus one shouldn't consider one's own opinions on the meaning definitive in the same way that one does (and should) in one's native tongue.

Re-reading the embedded quote above I also see it is ambiguous, and on one reading I agree with it -- in most of the world there is a definite meaning which varies from place to place, as opposed to the reading ' there is one definite meaning, such that this is the meaning for most of the world' (footnote: a quantifier scope ambiguity)

The Spanish definition we all know from our experiences in Spain. In England it is used to mean -- ' a small portion of Spanish food'. The portion size is the determining factor. This is generally about 30%-50% of the size of a normal portion -- so quite a bit bigger than a normal tapas portion in Spain (is this right?). Almost anything can be served like this.

You will generally be served seated at a table, at lunch or dinner, in a normal restaurant way.

This also seems to be the case in some parts of America -- in Santa Fe, I went to quite a good Spanish restaurant, where this was the way they did 'tapas'. There at least the range of dishes had some relation to the sorts of food that you get served in Spain.

[vserna]

The Spanish definition we all know from our experiences in Spain. In England it is used to mean -- ' a small portion of Spanish food'. The portion size is the determining factor. This is generally about 30%-50% of the size of a normal portion -- so quite a bit bigger than a normal tapas portion in Spain (is this right?).

There is a bit of a semantic confusion here.

'Tapas' is a plural form - the Spanish word in the singular form is 'una tapa'. (From its primitive origin: 'una tapa' means 'a cover', as something that was placed on top of a tiny sherry glass in Seville bars, some say to keep the flies away, and was offered free of charge to the customer who ordered the sherry.) A tapa is not a smaller portion, it's actually a tiny morsel: a potato chip with an anchovy on top, or a stuffed olive and a pickled gherkin on a tiny skewer, or a tiny bread slice with a pickled mussel...

When, in Spain, you go out 'de tapas', it means 'to sample many different tapas'. To make things more precise, someone will propose to go out to 'cenar de tapas', or 'dining on tapas': this way you know that the tapas will be replacing a regular dinner, not just acting as a peripatetic hors d'oeuvre session. The smaller portion of a dish that you mention will not be called 'una tapa' in Spain; it will be called 'una ración' - literally, 'a portion'. Most of the time, on a bar spree, one will have a few 'tapas' and a few 'raciones'.

[balex]

Yes, thanks for the clarification : it clearly means something rather different in England. In fact in some places you can order the food either as 'tapa' size portions (= racion?) or as 'normal' size. That said I am sure there are a few places in London which do it the right way.

Don't get me started on what 'barbecue' means in England ...

[vserna]

That's not just an English problem! Except in places like Dallas, Durham or St. Louis, most people around the world think that barbecueing is grilling some steaks and burgers on a metallic grill with wheels in a garden or back yard... Heck, when I was growing up in New York 40 years ago I can tell you that none of us had an idea what real southern, smoky barbecue slowly cooked in a wood-burning smoker, was or what it tasted like... That was as foreign and exotic as tapas back then.