An Ideal Negroni

[lesliec]

I can see the Lucien Gaudin as being part of the continuum of 'Negroni-like' drinks. It has gin, vermouth and Campari; where it differs is in adding the fourth ingredient. So maybe we should class it as a 'Negroni-plus' - I bet there's as many of those as there are three-ingredient variations.

We've enjoyed the LG several times at home and I had a cracker one at Mea Culpa in Auckland when we were up there last weekend. I don't get sourness/astringency from it; I don't like sour in cocktails, so I think I'd notice!

Mea Culpa's a nice bar, by the way; up there with Wellington's Hawthorn Lounge but smaller.

[Czequershuus]

The Lucien Gaudin is actually one of my favorite cocktails, and while I can see it being an extension of a Negroni, I tend to think of it in a mental category of vermouth/amaro sours, where the acid role in the drink is split between the citrus and wine-based portion. I do think it can be a sensitive drink though, one that requires very fresh vermouth and decent limes.

[EvergreenDan]

The Lucien Gaudin is actually one of my favorite cocktails, and while I can see it being an extension of a Negroni, I tend to think of it in a mental category of vermouth/amaro sours, where the acid role in the drink is split between the citrus and wine-based portion. I do think it can be a sensitive drink though, one that requires very fresh vermouth and decent limes.

Citrus? Lime?

Are there two similar cocktails with the same name?

[EvergreenDan]

Boy, did not like this. The orange put me off. I'd try it again with Aperol or Amer Boudreau, though.

[Czequershuus]

Woof, that will teach me for posting late at night after a full day of work. Conflating completely different things I had read in my mind. Carry on about your business everyone one, nothing to see here *slink round corner*

[lesliec]

You need a drink, maybe ...

[Rafa]

Remove the "maybe" and we have ourselves a forum motto.

[Plantes Vertes]

By product of stupidity and confusion I invented a drink tonight. It was meant to be one of the Herban Botanists from here:

1oz Botanivore Gin

1oz Cynar

1oz Cocchi Americano

Bittermens Orange Cream Citrate

Orange Twist

... but I accidentally made it into:

Délit de Fuite

1oz Botanivore Gin

1/2oz Cynar

1/2oz Campari

1oz Cocchi Americano

Homemade Orange Cream Citrate

Orange Twist

and it was good. The orange citrate is rather sweet; I will add some Angostura next time to modify the creamy flavour. At that point I don't know whether Negroni can stretch to cover it but in any case it is eminently repeatable.

[FrogPrincesse]

This looks very nice, PV (I like the name too).

So how do you make orange cream citrate?

[Plantes Vertes]

I reduced a few TBS cream, ~1tsp citric acid and 3 big whacks of orange peel until they went, um, smaller (translucent and sticky).

I took inspiration from the descriptions online but I haven't tasted the original so have no idea if that was right. It seemed to work

[FrogPrincesse]

Very cool. Thanks.

[FrogPrincesse]

These past few weeks the Varnish in LA has been celebrating its five year anniversary with a month-long celebration where past bartenders come to serve their creations. I haven't been able to attend but I am there in spirit...

Last night Chris Bostik served the Nice Legs cocktail, another delightful Negroni variation. This one is the red version of the White Negroni. Suze for the bitter element, and barolo chinato for the aromatized wine (it's a quinquina made from Barolo wine).

 

Nice Legs: 1.5 oz Beefeater gin, 0.75 oz suze, 0.75 Cocchi barolo chinato, rock(s), orange peel.

 

 

 

[campus five]

Funny I saw that recipe in my twitter feed, and immediately sent it to evernote for safe keeping. I believe I'll have that before dinner. 

[FrogPrincesse]

It's a good one. It got a little write-up a while back in LA Weekly (Best Negroni Variation) and Serious Eats (although they were using Salers at the time).

[haresfur]

I have come to the conclusion that I just don't like vermouth much - at least the ones I've tried.  So I made a Negroni substituting Dubonnet and was happier.  It is sweeter so you may want to dial back but what I found interesting was a spicy note and the Gin coming forward more.

 

No picture - it looks like a Negroni.

[EvergreenDan]

I have come to the conclusion that I just don't like vermouth much - at least the ones I've tried.  

Oh dear. Let us help our friend. What vermouths have you tried?

Edited March 19, 2014 by EvergreenDan (log)

[lesliec]

Oh dear. Let us help our friend.

 

We must, indeed, come to the aid of Haresfur.

 

The last (but one) vermouth I bought was Dubonnet, but I've now reverted to Punt e Mes as my 'standard'.  I've also been very happy with Dolin.  The Dubonnet was OK, but not as good (to my taste) in things like Negronis as the other two.

 

If you can find it, there's a Catalan vermouth (Priorat Vermut) which is delicious just on its own, chilled with a bit of orange zest.  But I'd go Punt e Mes any time for mixing.

[haresfur]

Oh dear. Let us help our friend. What vermouths have you tried?

 

Mainly M&R and Cinzano.  I don't think my Dan Murphy's has Punt e Mes anymore and I've never seen Dolin. I can get Nolly Prat but it is about twice as expensive and I wasn't impressed when I was first getting into cocktails.  Since I can only get large bottles and am reluctant to buy a bottle to have it go bad, I figured I will hold on revisiting dry vermouth drinks for trips to bars.

 

I didn't think Dubonnet was considered vermouth.  I used to drink it on the rocks as a kid (ok, my parents used to drink it on the rocks and I sampled).

[FrogPrincesse]

 

I didn't think Dubonnet was considered vermouth.  I used to drink it on the rocks as a kid (ok, my parents used to drink it on the rocks and I sampled).

You are correct. Dubonnet is an aromatized wine, but not a vermouth. It's a quinquina.

[ChrisTaylor]

Mainly M&R and Cinzano.  I don't think my Dan Murphy's has Punt e Mes anymore and I've never seen Dolin. I can get Nolly Prat but it is about twice as expensive and I wasn't impressed when I was first getting into cocktails.  Since I can only get large bottles and am reluctant to buy a bottle to have it go bad, I figured I will hold on revisiting dry vermouth drinks for trips to bars.

 

I didn't think Dubonnet was considered vermouth.  I used to drink it on the rocks as a kid (ok, my parents used to drink it on the rocks and I sampled).

 

Nicks sells reasonably priced 1L bottles of Punt e Mes. They also sell Dolin.

[campus five]

Mainly M&R and Cinzano.  I don't think my Dan Murphy's has Punt e Mes anymore and I've never seen Dolin. I can get Nolly Prat but it is about twice as expensive and I wasn't impressed when I was first getting into cocktails.  Since I can only get large bottles and am reluctant to buy a bottle to have it go bad, I figured I will hold on revisiting dry vermouth drinks for trips to bars.

 

I didn't think Dubonnet was considered vermouth.  I used to drink it on the rocks as a kid (ok, my parents used to drink it on the rocks and I sampled).

 

Yeah, I really don't enjoy M&R or Cinzano... or Dolin Rouge for that matter. And I really, really hate Noilly Prat.

There's an "oregano" note that I really dislike (kind of like bad faux-italian food), and Noilly Prat almost has on "olive" note that I find especially nauseating.

Also, I found all of them very "thin". They couldn't really stand up to the whiskey in a manhattan for me. 

 

But Carpano Antica, Cocchi Vermouth Di Torrino, and Contratto Rosso are all amazing.

I used to be a die-hard Antica fan, but that vanilla can be a bit much, and the Cocchi and Contratto have enough fullness without being quite as overbearing. 

Contratto may be my current favorite, but I haven't yet starting using the bottle I bought, so I haven't really played with it enough to compare.

We did a tasting and it came out tops. 

Still, I'll take Antica in a heartbeat if the other two aren't around. 

 

If I'd only had the first four, I'd call it a day with Sweet Vermouth, too.

Mahattans and Negronis are perhaps my two favorite cocktails, and without decent vermouth, they can be completely ruined. 

 

That said, Cinzano stands out for me as the least bad option. It has a similar profile to M&R, but less so, if that makes sense. 

Also, I find sufficient dilution in a negroni to help a little with mediocre vermouth. Of course, there's nothing that'll make Noilly Prat Rouge drinkable to me. 

[lennyt]

Yeah, I really don't enjoy M&R or Cinzano... or Dolin Rouge for that matter. And I really, really hate Noilly Prat.

There's an "oregano" note that I really dislike (kind of like bad faux-italian food), and Noilly Prat almost has on "olive" note that I find especially nauseating.

Also, I found all of them very "thin". They couldn't really stand up to the whiskey in a manhattan for me. 

 

But Carpano Antica, Cocchi Vermouth Di Torrino, and Contratto Rosso are all amazing.

I used to be a die-hard Antica fan, but that vanilla can be a bit much, and the Cocchi and Contratto have enough fullness without being quite as overbearing. 

Contratto may be my current favorite, but I haven't yet starting using the bottle I bought, so I haven't really played with it enough to compare.

We did a tasting and it came out tops.

 

Haha, I just bought a bottle of the Contratto based on our mutual hatred of Noilly Prat, that swimming, stale, stewed 'olive' note put me off vermouth for years! The contratto is great, I had a few glasses on ice with a kumquat twist, it has a perfect bitterness which sticks to your tongue like a negroni should, but I find it still has an oregano note which stands out IMO too strongly in the negroni, and it's very sweet. Granted the oregano note isn't 'faux-Italian' like the other vermouths but more sprightly and herbal. So I tried this in a Rob Roy (unpeated) and it worked perfectly since the afterburn of the whisky merged with the oregano turning it into something else entirely, an almost piney freshness which goes up your nose! So top marks in that area, but I'm still searching for a sweet vermouth that really allows the gin to shine in a negroni. I'll have to try the Cocchi. I find M&R lets the gin through but its thin and just not great quality compared to other vermouths. So right now I'm using Sacred Spiced English vermouth because its something which I keep around (for drinking straight), it's incredibly rich with a lot of woody depth, not too sweet. An exceptional quality drink, but like the Antica I guess, once you've put it in a Negroni it kinda "makes" the negroni due to its richness, and the other ingredients taste like more of an afterthought.

 

Also, I'm now using Sacred's Rosehip Cup instead of Campari in my Negronis. I think it was designed partly in order to replace the Campari in a Negroni, and like Campari it contains orange peel and rhubarb along with a bunch of other botanicals... I know that some view the Campari as the 'constant' in a Negroni, but I see it as a weak link in many ways, since it is hard to swap out for a 'better' Campari. Let's face it, I'm sure the original Campari was more interesting than the garish coloured drink of today. I even heard that Gran Classico is closer the original Campari, but I saw earlier in the thread that it gives a completely different flavour and viscous texture to the drink.

I find that the bitterness of the Rosehip Cup mimics that of Campari very well, it hits the 'negroni' point in the spectrum even though it isn't quite as bitter as the Campari, so perhaps a mix of the two is called for, or a more bitter vermouth. I will investigate...

 

Another thing, kumquats and physalis fruit work well along with the orange twist, their flavour is so similar it simply expands the profile of the orange - it doesn't taste like there is anything other than orange in there, just a very, very good orange!

[brinza]

Yeah, I really don't enjoy M&R or Cinzano... or Dolin Rouge for that matter. And I really, really hate Noilly Prat.

There's an "oregano" note that I really dislike (kind of like bad faux-italian food), and Noilly Prat almost has on "olive" note that I find especially nauseating.

Also, I found all of them very "thin". They couldn't really stand up to the whiskey in a manhattan for me. 

 

But Carpano Antica, Cocchi Vermouth Di Torrino, and Contratto Rosso are all amazing.

Interesting that you made the comment about oregano, because I definitely get that with M&R, slightly with Dolin, and especially with Vya, but I don't taste that at all in Cinzano, which is actually my favorite everyday vermouth.  I agree with you on Noilly Prat rouge.  I've only had one bottle (a 375ml) and didn't care for it at all.    I'd use Cocchi Vermouth di Torino more often if I could get it easily.  I might have to try the Contratto before PA decides it's too good for us to have.

[Kerry Beal]

Dittany of Crete - aka Origanum dictumus is a common vermouth herb - and often one of the predominate ones.  Bet that is where your oregano flavour comes in.

[EvergreenDan]

I made a white-ish Negroni last night with equal parts Redemption white rye, Breckenridge Bitters, and dry vermouth. Not earth shattering, but a nice variation. My wife sniffed and made "that" face, so I made her's with white rye, Campari, and Punt e Mes. She said, "yum."