Foie Gras Ban/the Ethics of Foie Gras

[Kent Wang]

China's already a big producer.

←

Really? Are they exporting? I've never seen any Chinese foie gras at retail. Maybe they're more readily available through wholesale channels. How is the quality?

Animal cruelty laws are way behind in China. At least we can be sure they won't be banning foie gras any time soon -- unless PETA pushes through an international treaty! That would be scary.

[PCL]

Chinese produced foie is just fine.

It's not as silky as 'the real thing', or so my memory tells me, but I haven't eaten foie for a while. Might pop into the local for a slab tonight.

[Ohba]

China's already a big producer.

←

Really? Are they exporting? I've never seen any Chinese foie gras at retail. Maybe they're more readily available through wholesale channels. How is the quality?

Animal cruelty laws are way behind in China. At least we can be sure they won't be banning foie gras any time soon -- unless PETA pushes through an international treaty! That would be scary.

←

Well, to put it into perspective, foie gras is a FRENCH speciality, and I'm not aware of any serious attempts to ban it in France. The movement to ban it in various parts of the States is, globally speaking, an irrelevance, and can just be added to the long list of British and American food neuroses that other countries would do very well to avoid.

I don't know much about the Chinese foie gras, though I've heard it's of inferior quality at present. Not having had the best of the best French, I couldn't say what that means. It might be perfectly acceptable as a cheaper alternative. Do they export it? I would imagine that is the reason they began producing it in the first place. The quality may well improve, as has happened with other Chinese products, and even if it doesn't, not everyone is going to insist on the finest hand-reared produce. Any more than they insist on the finest cheese, fish, beef, or 18 year old single malt whisky, so I guess there will always be a market for it.

[a2k]

I do not take the animals who have died for my meals for granted, and for you to assume the opposite is not really all that fair to me.

ETA: I forgot to say that everyone is entitled to their own opinions; I assume that you disagree with mine, and that you believe foie gras production is inhumane.  That's your perogative.  But please don't assume that I haven't thought this through.

←

Hi Megan. I'm not assuming anything about you (I don't even know you!). I was replying directly to the original poster (who I do happen to know), and who clearly stated that he takes foie gras for granted.

After a quick search around the web and within eGullet, it appears that it may be possible that our children may not be able to enjoy the fabulous delicacy we take for granted today.

←

Actually, he was the one that assumed you take it for granted (by using 'we' instead of 'I'), so you should probably take your issue up with him.

[a2k]

I just can't agree with this statement enough. I have had friends who worked in chicken farms and holy hell if PETA published pictures of what his job was it would be amazing.

As long as we're talking about assumptions, it seems like there are a lot of assumptions about what PETA is and isn't doing that are fairly incorrect. A quick look at their FAQ might solve this.

PETA has published pictures of what happens in chicken farms. Check'm out here: http://www.torturedbytyson.com/ (though not before a meal!).

And they certainly are targeting Tyson and other factory farmers to put pressure on them to use more humane production methods. Here's a press release they put out last week about it:

PETA BECOMES CKE SHAREHOLDER, SPEAKS AT ANNUAL MEETING IN ST. LOUIS TO CALL FOR MORE HUMANE CHICKEN SLAUGHTER

For Immediate Release:

June 26, 2006

Contact:

Matt Prescott 757-622-7382

St. Louis - At CKE’s annual meeting in St. Louis tomorrow, PETA—which recently purchased 220 shares of stock in Carpinteria, Calif.-based CKE—will read a statement calling on the fast-food giant to move toward the humane poultry-slaughter method of "controlled-atmosphere killing" (CAK), which puts birds "to sleep" quickly and painlessly. In its statement, PETA points out that McDonald’s studied CAK and concluded that in addition to being the most humane form of poultry slaughter, it also results in economic benefits. CKE, which operates the Carl’s Jr. and Hardee’s restaurant chains, has made no movement on animal welfare.

As part of its campaign to move the industry toward implementing CAK, PETA has become a shareholder in 24 companies, including McDonald’s, Burger King, Wendy’s, Denny’s, and Tyson Foods.

When: Wednesday, June 27, 10 a.m.

Where: Chase Park Plaza, 212 N. Kingshighway Blvd., St. Louis

PETA’s statement for CKE’s annual meeting is available by request.

For more information, please visit PETA’s Web site PETA.org.

[SWISS_CHEF]

It's just another American fad...didn't you guys do this in the 20's with alcohol? Relax, you can always move to France where they view things like this much more logically!

[hhlodesign]

And they certainly are targeting Tyson and other factory farmers to put pressure on them to use more humane production methods.

"Putting pressure on" is vastly different from from introducing legislation. The New York ban was introduced by the Humane Society of the United States (amongst other organizations)

Humane Society Press Release

Granted, not PETA. But the point being that they know the general public will be much less sympathetic to their cause if the production methods they are trying to ban (vs. putting pressure against) affects working class citizens buying cheap chicken, vs. the perceived "privileged few" eating foie. This is exactly why this issue gets to me so much. Not that fact that I want to eat foie gras, and they are trying to take that away. But the idea that certain people have less rights than others.

Edited July 7, 2006 by hhlodesign (log)

[hhlodesign]

Actually, he was the one that assumed you take it for granted (by using 'we' instead of 'I'), so you should probably take your issue up with him.

←

Sorry Megan!

[Megan Blocker]

After a quick search around the web and within eGullet, it appears that it may be possible that our children may not be able to enjoy the fabulous delicacy we take for granted today.

←

Actually, he was the one that assumed you take it for granted (by using 'we' instead of 'I'), so you should probably take your issue up with him.

←

Fair enough, a2k! Henry, defend yourself!

ETA: Just saw Henry's post...you're forgiven.

Edited July 7, 2006 by Megan Blocker (log)

[H. du Bois]

It's just another American fad...didn't you guys do this in the 20's with alcohol? Relax, you can always move to France where they view things like this much more logically!

Sort of, but there isn't going to be enough of a foie gras market to bring on the Al Capones and the relief of bathtub gin. It will probably function more like the Cuban cigar ban (illegal due to the trade embargo). Not that many cigar smokers in this country, but those who are know their worth and would love to smoke them. And, as things like these always go, the super rich simply acquire them as they please.

Would love to move to France. Can you help me get an EU passport?

[Pontormo]

While Henry already mentioned just how many threads concern Chicago's legislated ban and the ethics of foie gras, I thought this one on trans fat should be linked since it is in the Hearland's regional forum rather than up here among the Starters.

I am reminded of something I probably have mentioned before, but when a food co-op took over a supermarket on a major artery in New Haven, Connecticut that joined lower-income neighborhoods to Yale and downtown, the earnest staff decided it would carry mainstream items such as ketchup and potato chips (radical circa 1980; no artisanal Organics then) to attract fok away from competition so they might be "taught" to eat better by browsing the other aisles. As an incentive, foods with high nutritional value were priced low and junk food, while available, cost more.

Now, that may be patronizing, but at least the economic incentives provide options that a full-out ban does not. What bothers me most about Chicago's action is that it is also market-driven; it's not purely Ethics through Legislation. Cigarettes cause serious illness, death and cause huge medical expenses that affect non-smokers. They harm humans vs. the animals we raise to consume. Why doesn't Chicago simply ban smoking anywhere in the city instead?

[SWISS_CHEF]

........Would love to move to France.  Can you help me get an EU passport? 

←

With a name like Du Bois I would have thought you were a shoe-in. The French should be spitting on your shoulders!

[H. du Bois]

........Would love to move to France.  Can you help me get an EU passport?  

←

With a name like Du Bois I would have thought you were a shoe-in. The French should be spitting on your shoulders!

Alas, du Bois is only a nom de plume. But they should spit on my shoulders anyway.

[andiesenji]

PETA is not as squeeky-clean regarding the treatment of animals as they would have everyone believe.

My very first personal experience with the results of PETA meddling was when one of my basenjis, sold to a couple in Pennsylvania, was released from her crate at a dog show, along with several other dogs, in 1981. My beautiful bitch puppy (just 8 months old and already with 9 points toward her championship) ran into a busy street and was struck and killed by a car, as were three other dogs, and several others were injured. The puppy's owners had a 7-year-old daughter who saw the incident. She was traumatized too.

This was not just another puppy, I had imported her mother from Australia at considerable expense, had bred to a top-winning dog who had produced several champions and who had excellent temperament(also a substantial fee). She was to have been an important part of my future breeding program and was the only bitch puppy in the litter.

The PETA activists left behind flyers that said "caging live things is cruel." When I learned what had happened, I would have liked to chase those awful things calling themselves people, in front of a car and let them feel the impact, the terror and the pain.

It is 25 years later and I am still so angry about this heedless and horribly inhumane action that I actually believe I could kick the bejeezus out of anyone who admitted to being a PETA member in my presence.

Ingrid Newkirk has made multiple statements that she believes that all domestic animals should be made extinct so they could no longer be "exploited." She is the worst kind of fanatic. In my opinion she should be extinct.

It is a great tragedy against nature when any living creature becomes extinct but that is what will happen if these PETA activists get their way.

Who will give a place to this breed of ducks and who will spend money on feed for them if they can't be used to produce foie gras? Would you spend money on pasturage and grain for cattle if you couldn't make a profit? I don't think so.

The saddest and strangest thing is that these legislators that vote for these food bans can't understand this point and what is even more ridiculous is that some of them have financial interests in business that actually produce animal products.

I believe animals should be treated humanely and I think the battery raised chickens and turkeys should be better regulated as should cattle feed lots, pig farms and the manner in which they are slaughtered.

I also believe that there should be a total ban on whaling and have contributed to the supports for many years.

There has to be a point where someone says, enough! PETA is not for animal welfare, they are forso-called animal rights which they apparently believe should take precedence over human rights.

However, their hands are not clean, they have been caught multiple times on camera, euthanizing animals in a shelter that they maintain, including identifiable pets with identity chips turned over to them while the owners were on vacation and these particular two dogs and one cat got out when the pet-sitter left a door ajar. She tried to recover the animals but was told to return on the following Monday with proof of ownership. When the owners went to the shelter three days later they were told the animals were euthanized "because they were in poor health and had been abused." This was disputed by the animals vet and the shelter was sued and settled out of court.

Lest you think I am making this up....

PETA's nasty secrets.

and about

Ingrid Newkirk...

Edited July 8, 2006 by andiesenji (log)

[Stu-i-moto]

Forgotten in all this discussion about what we want to eat, are allowed to eat, etc. is the fact that there are 2 small businesses (one in CA; one in NY) that produce these products that will go out of business as a result of this. And that's IF they make it through the terrorism that PETA crackpots put them through.

I won't die withough Foie Gras, but I honestly wonder what difference I can really make. I'm wondering out loud-

Maybe someone can create a form letter that all can send to their appropriate legislators to let them know that they *strongly* oppose the ban(s). This is probably the most effective method. Then it will become a war of numbers - how many letters "we" can generate, vs. how many PETA activists can generate. Legislators move when they get mail.

Boycotting Whole Foods doesn't seem like a productive thing, if the goal is to get the legislation affected.

[johnsmith45678]

Anybody see the Penn & Teller Bullshit episode about PETA? I really enjoyed it. F#*%ing self-righteous arrogant hypocrites (PETA).

[Milagai]

Who will give a place to this breed of ducks and who will spend money on feed for them if they can't be used to produce foie gras?  Would you spend money on pasturage and grain for cattle if you couldn't make a profit?  I don't think so.

I believe animals should be treated humanely and I think the battery raised chickens and turkeys should be better regulated as should cattle feed lots, pig farms and the manner in which they are slaughtered.

I also believe that there should be a total ban on whaling and have contributed to the supports for many years. 

I'm not getting into the stuff about PETA and foie gras etc.

I'm curious about 2 points:

First, how come you oppose whaling? Those animals are not

factory farmed or raised inhumanely?

Re breeds of ducks going extinct, maybe they'll become

like breeds of dogs / cats - raised for pets and profits

come from that. And has not modern farming made

several older breeds of cattle near-extinct?

Milagai

Unrelated to this particular thread: one of the problems

is that meat has gone from being a once-in-a-while treat

(for the masses) to large hunks dominating the food plate

at every meal. So much grain and water for feed, instead

of being directly eaten. At this rate it will take the resources

of something like 5 planets to feed the people in this one.

[andiesenji]

I believe whales are intelligent.

The slaughter and processing of whales is horrible. They are dragged up the ramp into the factory ships and some are still alive when they begin peeling off the hide and blubber. I have a film of a mother whale with a nursing baby, "harvested" and after processing the mother the whalers watched and made jokes about the baby following the ship for days until it starved to death because it wasn't big enough to make it worth harvesting. It was a Norwegian ship.

[Snowy is dead]

If half the ire directed at foie gras was directed instead at the poor state of education in this country (witness my grammar) no one would even be having this conversation.

Inhumane treatment of people by people across the country far outweighs what happens to a duck on a heavily regulated farm in New York. Let opponents of foie gras tackle homlessness instead. Or something else. Cancer, poverty, global warming, whatever. There are no shortage of things that affect people with far more devastating effect than foie gras.

[johnsmith45678]

I believe whales are intelligent.

←

So, unintelligent animals are okay? Where's the line, intelligence-wise?

[Milagai]

I believe whales are intelligent.

←

So, unintelligent animals are okay? Where's the line, intelligence-wise?

←

I too am curious about this....

People who have pigs for pets say that pigs are more

intelligent than dogs.

Then others eat dogs / cats ....

Horses are said to be not so bright, but most people

in the West hate the idea of eating one.....

(and let's not get into the intelligence of

some of our fellow humans .... )

Also curious about the film you refer to.

I have heard about similar films

showing similar scenes for cows crying

for their calves (taken off to veal pens because

they are male) etc.

I agree that the slaughter and processing of any animal

is pretty horrible in most situations.

Milagai

[FabulousFoodBabe]

Back to the topic: to me, it's not so much a matter of foie gras being banned. It's obviously an easy target, both economically (less $$ to fight back), and emotionally (aww, the lineup of baby ducklings waddling behind their Mommy, how could you just not want to cuddle them?).

It doesn't seem so far off that our government will be legislating what we "must" eat, not only what we are not allowed to produce and consume. For the greater good, of course, and not only the greater good of those fluffy little birds. Hah.

[Brian Brenner]

Back to the topic:  to me, it's not so much a matter of foie gras being banned.  It's obviously an easy target, both economically (less $$ to fight back), and emotionally (aww, the lineup of baby ducklings waddling behind their Mommy, how could you just not want to cuddle them?).

It doesn't seem so far off that our government will be legislating what we "must" eat, not only what we are not allowed to produce and consume.  For the greater good, of course, and not only the greater good of those fluffy little birds.  Hah.

←

I find the slippery slope implications of this ban quite frightening. If this ridiculous trend of banning foie continues on the premise of cruel treatment of animals, it would be a no brainer for those opposed to meat eating in general to make the case that all raising of animals for slaughter is in one way or another cruel. It could be argued in one fell swoop that raising livestock for slaughter is cruel, or specific handling practices during the process of raising livestock are cruel. Thus, leaving the argument open to endless bantor and nitpicking. Not to say that the foie haters would ever have a chance at trying to ban hamburgers or chicken breast, too many would laugh and oppose, but the groundwork and precedence for the argument will certainly have been laid. How long before we hear more of veal being banned?

On a different tangent, as a professional chef, I was deeply irratated to hear that such chefs as Charlie Trotter and Rick Tramonto spoke out in favor of the ban in Chicago. Seems a bit hypocritical as Chef Trotter has reference to fifteen foie preparations in his "Meat & Game" book alone and Chef Tramonto has an entire chapter dedicated to foie preparations in his "Tru" cookbook. Perhaps we should ban the sale of these books as they encourage the delicious preparation of this banned ingredient. While I do not mean to diminish the accomplishment and contribution of these great chefs, I never understand it when I hear a cook or chef say "I don't eat..."

[jesteinf]

On a different tangent, as a professional chef, I was deeply irratated to hear that such chefs as Charlie Trotter and Rick Tramonto spoke out in favor of the ban in Chicago.

←

Not true. Trotter was probably the one that got the ball rolling on things in Chicago, but he is against the ban. Tramanto is definitely against the ban, as he is the one who called Trotter a hypocrite in the first place for serving any kind of meat in his restaurant. The most prominent person to speak out in favor of the ban was someone who was in the cast of MASH.

[Brian Brenner]

On a different tangent, as a professional chef, I was deeply irratated to hear that such chefs as Charlie Trotter and Rick Tramonto spoke out in favor of the ban in Chicago.

←

Not true. Trotter was probably the one that got the ball rolling on things in Chicago, but he is against the ban. Tramanto is definitely against the ban, as he is the one who called Trotter a hypocrite in the first place for serving any kind of meat in his restaurant. The most prominent person to speak out in favor of the ban was someone who was in the cast of MASH.

←

I appreciate the info. In Detroit chef circles, and I don't know how we ended up with this misinformation, many are under the impression that both were in favor of the ban.