Vietnamese Baguette for banh mi

[NhumiSD]

Hi all,

Iam in love with the baguette. But this version that I want to make is a Vietnamese version, that Ive heard uses part rice flour???

The crust is crispy and light. The bread is not at all dense.

The vietnamese baguette is supposedly taken from the French Baguettes.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

-Nhumi

[Redsugar]

Corinne Trang's debatable recipe for Vietnamese Rice Baguettes.

Edited September 16, 2004 by Redsugar (log)

[bong]

SAIGON BAGUETTE

....

[source: Corinne Trang, *Authentic Vietnamese Cooking: Food From a Family Table* (1999)]

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This same recipe (and other thoughts) have been discussed recently on this eGullet thread: Bahn Mi Recipe

The consensus is that this recipe does not work.

[NhumiSD]

Ive also read up on this recipe and have heard that it doesnt work. I would think that too much rice flour would not give enough gluten in a bread recipe. Thanks for posting.

I will probably have to just try increments of rice flour in a already good baguette recipe.

-Yumi

[Redsugar]

This morning was the first time I've heard of baguettes made w/ rice flour. (I predominantly use rice flour in pastry creams.) The Trang recipe is excerpted across the Web. Yumi has indicated a positive outlook -- viz., that she'll run trial batches, varying the proportion of bread ::: rice flours in the baguettes. Bon chance!

Subsequently, I've looked through a of couple of my bread-file binders, and have spotted only two recipes containing rice -- albeit one of them uses cooked white rice, which is added to a batter-method bread. The recipe looks sound, and I would expect it to provide a fine, crusty loaf. But then, it's only tangentially related to the sought-after baguette.

The other recipe I located, was one which I had clipped from a Toronto newspaper a few years back. That bread is made solely from rice flour. I kept it primarily to have on hand if there was a contingency in which it could be served to someone w/ an intolerance to wheat products.

[phaelon56]

How about keeping the amount of rice flour the same but adding some gluten? Might that work?

[Kapuliperson]

I'm going to try that this afternoon.

[NhumiSD]

How about keeping the amount of rice flour the same but adding some gluten?  Might that work?

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What I think is that, we start with a baguette recipe we already know how its texture is, and that uses AP flour. Then we can substitute some AP flour for rice flour. This should lessen the amount of gluten. Iam thinking the texture would be less tough since rice flour is mainly starch. Using the same baking and fermentation process, we should be able to compare the baguettes purely based upon its AP flour :: rice flour ratios.

Iam sure there will be a ratio where the amount of rice flour will be too much so that it makes the loaf dense, as the CO2 produced cant be trapped due to not enough gluten.

Since we started with AP flour which has less gluten then bread flour, we may not need to substitute so much rice flour in the recipe.

I wonder if we can try this using even less gluten flour like pastry flour???

Has anyone ever worked with wheat startch, tapioca flour??

-Nhumi

[Redsugar]

Recently, I had mentioned elsewhere in the P & B forum that I have been using a mixture of three-quarters unbleached flour (it lacks whitening agents and thus provides a slightly creamy color in the bread) to one-quarter pastry (soft wheat) flour when making Fr. Bread baguettes. (I haven’t formed the loaves into any other of the classic shapes using this proportion of flours.) The reason I began using it, on the suggestion of a friend, was that she assured me it would provide flavour closer to the genuine pain de Paris.

To my knowledge, rice flour is infrequently used in breadmaking – although it is lovely for dusting the dough when shaping it into loaves, esp. elegant braids. The rice flour dries the dough but does not adhere to it so the powdery appearance which results when dough is dusted w/ wheat flour is eschewed. It’s a delight to use, for example, on ropes of Challah bread.

Cooked rice grains can be added to some white breads and, I suspect, they would produce fine loaves. I had indicated in my previous post in this topic-thread that I have a recipe in my files which calls for a measure of cooked white rice. Also, I have made French millet and rye breads on countless occasions; but I know of only one regularly produced Parisian-type bread that uses a non-wheat flour, viz., pain sportif, which has a mixture of wheat, rye, and soya flour in it. Undoubtedly, there are others.

As most of us have learned from our technical books, flour provides the basic structure of breads (and, for that matter, cakes, batters, & pastry). But the structure is further dependent upon the type of flour – as well as the raising agent. Bread flour must be aearated by yeast. Most yeast-breads require kneading in order to strengthen the gluten, which, in turn, strengthens the cellular structure of the baked loaves.

Soft flours produced a softer, spongier texture: one cannot, of course, beat air into bread flour, but soft flours are easily leavened by thorough beating which causes aeration of the dough. It is primarily for this reason (as well as the flavour enhancement) that I incorporate pastry flour in my baguettes. The texture of the a.p./pastry-flour baguettes is coarse & “holey.” If a closer texture is sought, then the bread should be left to rise a second time after it is punched down, before shaping it into loaves.

I believe that Nhumi has embarked on a quite soundly logical course toward finding an acceptably textured rice-flour baguette, by As to the remark re CO2, let’s remember that the reason for slapping down the cushion of dough on the worksurface is to compress the C02 bubbles. This is performed so that the dough will have a better “skin.” However, when using gluten-free rice flour in a French-bread recipe, surely we want to avoid compressing the bubbles! Also, shouldn’t these loaves be baked at a lower temperature than the all-wheat versions?

Clearly, it does not seem probable to expect the rice-flour baguettes to be utter duplicates of the real thing. The rice flour will add hardness rather than soft texture to the loaves because it is less capable than wheat flour of holding the CO2 gases and less absorbent. So then, should the dough be a lot moister? It appears we have a dilemma on our hands: Knead the dough fairly vigorously to work up the wheat-flour gluten, or shun kneading in order to prevent hardening? The better wisdom seems to be that we should avoid knocking out those blessed bubbles.

When we add other grains to bread – such as cornmeal, oats, and bulgur – the reason is to impart greater variations in the texture. But with rice-flour we’ve entered a different scenario in which to experiment. When Nhumi concludes w/ the vital mention of starch & tapioca flour, we are led to another important consideration: The sugar/starch interaction may be a key to providing the sought-after texture.

“French bakers once served eleven-year apprenticeships, but intensive courses at a school run by the Grands Moulins de Paris now turn out qualified boulangers in three months.” (Paul Rambali, Boulangerie: The Craft and Culture of Baking in France, p. 125)

[Abra]

A group of us is doing a cook-through of the current issue of Food and Wine, and I'm making the banh mi recipe. I'd love to make the baguettes myself, and have scoured the web for a good recipe. There's one all over the place called Saigon Baguette that calls for 50% rice flour, but several other sites have criticisms of that recipe, saying the rice flour percentage shold be much lower. Does anyone have a tried and true great Vietnamese baguette recipe?

[beccaboo]

I haven't actually made these, but a reliable book (Home Baking by Jeffrey Alford and Naomi Duguid) has a recipe with 1 cup of rice flour, 1 cup of pastry flour, and 4 cups of all-purpose. There's some baking powder, too, in addition to the yeast, and a little bit of malt.

Edited August 29, 2005 by beccaboo (log)

[Abra]

Thanks so much, Becca. Would you be so kind as to list the exact ingredient amounts? I can take it from there, unless there's some unusual technique involved. Maybe I should post this in the Asia forum too.

Edited August 29, 2005 by Abra (log)

[beccaboo]

1 C rice flour

1 C pastry or cake flour

2 t baking powder

2 C water

1 T yeast

1 T wheat malt syrup or 1.5 t sugar

1.5 t salt

4 C AP flour, approx.

You make it pretty much like normal bread--mix everything up, knead, let rise, divide into 8 pieces, rest, shape into mini-baguettes, rise, bake on baking stone with steam @ 425F for about 20 minutes.

[Abra]

Thank you - I really appreciate it! That's an interesting recipe. I'll report back on how it turns out.

[glossyp]

Please do report on your results. I have tried to bake these myself as well with mixed results varying from disastrous to moderately okay. Of course, very few, if any, people in Vietnam bake their own baguettes. They do like the French and purchase them from a bakery or one of the many purveyors who cycle about the city with their fragrant loaves for sale. Now I'm craving a baguette and coffee!

[Abra]

Uhm, did your disasters involve a recipe like the one posted above? I'd rather learn from your experience than create my own disasters!

And now that I think of it, are we talking mochiko here, or some other sort of rice flour?

[torakris]

Uhm, did your disasters involve a recipe like the one posted above?  I'd rather learn from your experience than create my own disasters!

And now that I think of it, are we talking mochiko here, or some other sort of rice flour?

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I have had this same recipe (Alford-Duguid's) dog-eared for quite some time now but have never gotten aound to it....

In the comments/glossary section in the back of the book they talk about rice flour and decribe two types: rice flour and glutinous rice flour and comment the that they are not interchangeable as glutinous rice flour makes softer and stickier doughs.

Mochiko is a glutinous rice flour so this could be why some people have had disasterous results. Look for a regular rice flour.

[glossyp]

Uhm, did your disasters involve a recipe like the one posted above?  I'd rather learn from your experience than create my own disasters!

And now that I think of it, are we talking mochiko here, or some other sort of rice flour?

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I have had this same recipe (Alford-Duguid's) dog-eared for quite some time now but have never gotten aound to it....

In the comments/glossary section in the back of the book they talk about rice flour and decribe two types: rice flour and glutinous rice flour and comment the that they are not interchangeable as glutinous rice flour makes softer and stickier doughs.

Mochiko is a glutinous rice flour so this could be why some people have had disasterous results. Look for a regular rice flour.

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Just getting back in so sorry for the delay in replying. The most successful of the recipes was indeed like the one supplied by beccaboo. Torakris is correct in noting that there is a big difference between mochiko flour and regular rice flour. I used regular rice flours in all of my efforts. I was inspired by my first visit to Vietnam and a desire to recreate the wonderful bread. I was assisted by my Vietnamese friend (who, I'm sure, secretly thought I was crazy but kindly said nothing, only raising an eyebrow at some of the results!) who consulted with his mother and various relatives regarding hints or tips that might help.

Understanding more about the general chemistry of bread making now (thanks to eGullet and Peter Reinhart's BBA) I can look back on the experience and pinpoint a couple of the problems. One was the overall difference in climate - hot and humid vs. cool and moderately humid. Two was a measurement problem. I rigidly adhered to the measurements and failed to adjust according to what the dough was "telling" me. That's why I'm interested to see how it works for you. I may even have another go at it.

[tamiam]

Hi Abra--You could also get Gabriel's recipe from Jan or I. We got it while taking his Vietnamese class.

My recollection is that the rice flour is very low gluten so the dough is really sticky and needs lots of kneading.

[BettyK]

1 C rice flour

1 C pastry or cake flour

2 t baking powder

2 C water

1 T yeast

1 T wheat malt syrup or 1.5 t sugar

1.5 t salt

4 C AP flour, approx.

You make it pretty much like normal bread--mix everything up, knead, let rise, divide into 8 pieces, rest, shape into mini-baguettes, rise, bake on baking stone with steam @ 425F for about 20 minutes.

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Aha - Baking powder? This will probably make all the difference.

I've tried Corinne Trang's recipe several times with different amounts of rice flour but it never worked. So, maybe the key is BP. Can't wait to hear Abra's results.

Edited August 30, 2005 by BettyK (log)

[Apicio]

I have been a fan of bahn mi since the first wave of Vietnamese immigrants started arriving in Canada. But before I discovered bahn mi, I was even a bigger fan of those rolls they use for the bahn mi because it reminded me of the breakfast rolls we have where I came from (the Philippines). My question to you all is, when eating either the bahn mi or the vietnamese rolls alone, did you ever suspect that it contains rice flour or baking powder? I never did and if you tried to persuade me that they do contain these two items, I would tell you that you are pulling my leg because they look and taste exactly like french baguette that by French law should only contain wheat flour, water, salt and the levain. The Dominican pan de agua and the Mexican bolillos are two close cousins that do not contain any rice flour or baking powder either.

[Abra]

I don't think I've ever seen any other rice flour than mochiko - I'll have to look around. Tam, when Gabe used it, what brand was it, do you remember?

[beccaboo]

I don't think I've ever seen any other rice flour than mochiko - I'll have to look around.  Tam, when Gabe used it, what brand was it, do you remember?

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Asian grocery stores (the Viet Wah in Seattle is where I get my rice flour and tapioca flour) have lots of different rice flours. I just get the plain (not 'sweet' or 'glutinous') rice flour, and it works for most recipes. Mochiko's cheap there, too.

[Abra]

Thanks, Becca. I didn't know you were here in my area. I just looked in the back of my cupboard and found an unopened box of Joshin-ko plain rice flour. I can't remember when I bought it, but I must have known I'd need it. Great - I'm going to start my dough right now!

[NhumiSD]

Thanks, Becca.  I didn't know you were here in my area.  I just looked in the back of my cupboard and found an unopened box of Joshin-ko plain rice flour.  I can't remember when I bought it, but I must have known I'd need it.  Great - I'm going to start my dough right now!

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Ive been trying to figure out the same banh mi recipe. Will also try this with you guys. Cant wait.

-Nhumi