Chinese condiments

[anil]

Whats unique to Hong Kong is that it's not purchased by the Restaurants but by the Front of the house employees. This is due to it being traditional that all customers leave small cash gratuity for the use of the Mustard or Red Sauce, Hot Sauce, Worcestershire, Various Vinegars that the diners "CHOOSE" to use with their meal. This payment has nothing to do with the standard service charge added to almost all Restaurant checks but is payed as a welcome .....

Along with nuts,tea{scented sometimes} and other nibbles. However in many restaurants in the Kowloon/HKG-Island area have started quietly adding per person charge to cover these nibbles. This tradition is tollerated by some, and not by others.

Irwin, the practice that you speak of is one of the customs that we're seeing less and less of, agreed?

It has become less prevlant in the top end restaurants associated with 5-star hotels; but has creeped into restaurants in New Territories and other outer islands which did not have this in the '80s.

If you have dim-sum at City Hall, the server will add the condiments appropriate to the dish your ordered in a small container. Small yum-cha places along Canton Rd. have done away with adding extras and have two soys and a container of hot-chilli-oil in the table....

One has to keep in mind, Hong Kong is a very fast adapter of eating traditions and innovations - both from the main-land as well as outside the Chinese realm. Nothing is sacred while everything is revered in terms of eating.

A truely great city for constant dining 24hours a day :)

"Did you eat yet ? "

Edited February 22, 2005 by anil (log)

[PCL]

XO sauce?  I really doubt it they "give" this away for free.   I think they will provide you with some upon request but would add extras to your bill.

Mustard for sui-yuk, char siu I understand. But shark-fin soup?  Hmmmm, that's unusual.  Typically what some would use is a bit of vinegar, which really brings out the taste.  Any other condiment may overpower the delicate taste of shark-fin.

Worcestershire sauce is not usually brought out automatically unless accompanying dim sum dishes such as steamed beef balls, and egg rolls.

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I said "supply" never once implying them 'giving' anything away... or bringing anything out automatically...of course XO comes at a premium, unless you're friends with the low-pan.

Mustard and sharks fin adds piquancy to the soup without the fire of chilli. We're talking about a measured dose here, not a dollop. If it's a dollop, then you're Chee-Seen. sharks fin i don't think has any taste, but fishiness. It's a texture thing no? Or a status thing? I stay away from the stuff (yes yes, conservation and all that), but if pressed to be polite, i'd scoff it nonetheless.

edited to add the last line about sharks fin.

Edited February 23, 2005 by PCL (log)

[hzrt8w]

I said "supply" never once implying them 'giving' anything away...  or bringing anything out automatically...of course XO comes at a premium, unless you're friends with the low-pan.

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Why do they called that "XO" sauce anyway? I once thought it was because they prepare the chili sauce with XO class Brandy. No kidding... No wonder that stuff is expensive! Oh, only later found out that the "premium" ingredient to make the XO chili sauce is the dried scallop.

[jo-mel]

I'd read that XO sauce was named so, because a bottle of it was as expensive as the brandy. I guess the name worked as the name gets your attention.

Am I the only one who likes to have her egg rolls, dumplings, etc, WITHOUT any condiment dip? I lust like the mixed flavors of the food as it is. (Altho I do like oyster sauce with steak) Even my beloved New England Fried Clams --- one with tarter sauce is enough. I want the rest just plain ----- and NO ketchup on the fries!

[wesza]

It interesting on how the "Hong Kong" often evolves from the eyes of the diner, who as things become more progressive sometimes we lose sight of what the root rationale caused things to become local customs or traditions.

When we began opening different types regional Chinese Restaurants everywhere in Hong Kong we decided to provide all the condiments at no charge to our customers to provide consistency for the regional kinds of operations, even more important we offered a higher compensation to our employees.

The custom still persist in the majority of more reasonable priced eateries as well as all of my favorites the "Tai Pai Tungs", "Hawkers" and "Street Side Vendors".

Another interesting oddity still existing in Hong Kong is that many of the westernized restaurants use Caterers to provide employee meals that are served from in home kitchens with small tables or in the restaurants themselves because the Westernized/European Foods are not easily prepared at the Restaurants due to the different kitchen set ups. This may seem to be a reason, but what's more interesting is that the employees are generally not happy having to eat westernized food on a daily basis.

At our Restaurants where we employed Shanghai and Cantonese Employees the only type of meals that they agreed to share together based on its taste and flavor was meals done by "Toysan Families" who provided 3 dishes, soup plus rice per table for lunch with 4 dishes, soup and rice for dinner. All employees were expected to leave a small tip or gratuity for the condiments.

I often feel that because of sharing so many of these meals I developed such affinity to Toysan Cooking that it's has become my favorite. in Hong Kong just by the meals served you were able to tell what village the cook originated from, but it was always a amazing value that always tasted good.

It in my opinion characteristically the most food orientated community in the world when the 2 main spare time activities are Eating out and Mai Jong. I miss it every day

Irwin

[Ben Hong]

At our Restaurants where we employed Shanghai and Cantonese Employees the only type of meals that they agreed to share together based on its taste and flavor was meals done by "Toysan Families" who provided 3 dishes, soup plus rice per table for lunch with 4 dishes, soup and rice for dinner. All employees were expected to leave a small tip or gratuity for the condiments.

I often feel that because of sharing so many of these meals I developed such affinity to Toysan Cooking that it's has become my favorite. in Hong Kong just by the meals served you were able to tell what village the cook originated from, but it was always a amazing value that always tasted good.

It in my opinion  characteristically the most food orientated community in the world when the 2 main spare time activities are Eating out and Mai Jong. I miss it every day

Irwin

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Irwin, shhh. Putting up statements like that would probably creat a run on the dwindling supply of Toysan Mui. Hey Gastro888, your price just went up (inside joke)

Seriously, I am pleased that a person of your gustatory and business experience saw fit to verify for all the uniqueness and fantastic taste of "the food of my Mother" . Thanks, cheers.

[Gastro888]

So how many organic roasted suckling pigs is it now?

Wow, it is way cool to hear someone praise Toisanese cooking who's not Toisanese. (are you wesza?)

In my family, we don't do condiments at the table. That's a no-no. If something needs salt/soy sauce you get up and go get it. Duck sauce and mustard have their place for sure (hey it's like me liking the Marriott Hot Shoppe cafeterias as a child) but authentic cooking doesn't have the thermonuclear orange duck sauce or mustard.

Sidebar: my friend's father takes duck sauce, mustard, soy sauce and catsup and mixed them together to dip Chinese food in when he's eating it. Since it's her father I can't say anything but I recoil in horror every time he does it...ai ya!!!

[wesza]

So how many organic roasted suckling pigs is it now? 

Wow, it is way cool to hear someone praise Toisanese cooking who's not Toisanese.  (are you wesza?)

In my family, we don't do condiments at the table.  That's a no-no.  If something needs salt/soy sauce you get up and go get it.  Duck sauce and mustard have their place for sure (hey it's like me liking the Marriott Hot Shoppe cafeterias as a child) but authentic cooking doesn't have the thermonuclear orange duck sauce or mustard. 

Sidebar: my friend's father takes duck sauce, mustard, soy sauce and catsup and mixed them together to dip Chinese food in when he's eating it.  Since it's her father I can't say anything but I recoil in horror every time he does it...ai ya!!!

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Ben & Gastro888:

I am only Toysan in my stomach. After all I make many dishes using Duck or Geese Gizzards, Dried Scallops [Congee] and Dates. If I was fortunate enough to be invited for Dinner I would never expect Condiments since it would be a question of face. I always leave promptly after dinner is over. I have collected Pearl River Oysters that weighed in excess of 2 pounds [saved the Shells], spent time at the Amoy Canning Company Plant and use Pearl River Soy both light and dark at home. The only thing about me thats different is I generally prefer "Po Lei Cha" with Toysan Meals. Can't forget, "Steamed Pork with Salt Fish and Salted Egg", plus Veggies are better when seasoned with Oyster Sauce and First Press Peanut Oil.

Irwin

[Ben Hong]

The duck gizzards seal the deal. Irwin is henceforth a genoowine, bony fidy, honest to PoPo, Toisan Loh.

[Dejah]

Ben & Gastro888:

I am only Toysan in my stomach. After all I make many dishes using Duck or Geese Gizzards, Dried Scallops [Congee] and Dates. If I was fortunate enough to be invited for Dinner I would never expect Condiments since it would be a question of face. I  always leave promptly after dinner is over.  I  have collected Pearl River Oysters that weighed in excess of 2 pounds [saved the Shells], spent time at the Amoy Canning Company Plant and use Pearl River Soy both light and dark at home. The only thing about me thats different is I generally prefer "Po Lei Cha" with Toysan Meals. Can't forget, "Steamed Pork with Salt Fish and Salted Egg", plus Veggies are better when seasoned with Oyster Sauce and First Press Peanut Oil.

Irwin  

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Ah, Irwin, you are a "Hoy Saon Doi" at heart . . errr... at stomach.

Dried duck gizzards, duck feet, "honey date - meet dow", Chinese almonds - lan dee in dried bak choi tang . . . YUM!

Here's another candidate for "honourary Toisanese" along with Auntie Yetti!

[Gastro888]

Irwin, props to you for eatin' like a country boy. Holla back, young!

Funny, when I was eating Chinese food in Frankfurt and Rome, there wasn't hot mustard OR duck sauce at the table, just soy, salt, and pepper.

During my trips to HK, I never saw hot mustard at the table - dim sum or otherwise. I don't know many HK people who use mustard - far as I know within our community, it's considered a Western condiment. Usually the spice is provided by chiles and not mustard. Mustard on cheong fun? Who does that? (Then again, I think the yeow tew in cheong fun is a little much....)

Whatever and however people want to eat is cool by me but I don't think it's authentic to use duck sauce or mustard. But if you enjoy eating it, go for it.

Sidebar: Funny story about condiments: I went out to eat with a friend and we were eating Asian food and the first thing he does before he eats is shower it with soy sauce. I was mortified b/c:

1. He didn't taste the food before he used the condiment (big no-no according to my pops, master foodie)

2. He was Asian (AI YA!!!!)

I'm just sayin'....

[Dejah]

I always enjoy my "bak jam gai" with hot mustard, and oyster sauce with my "sew yook".

Everyone here seems to think that hot mustard is not Chinese. Some of my well travelled customers used to request "Chinese mustard" meaning the hot mustard. I used Keen's powder, the same stuff they used to plaster on hubby's chest when he had croup. To this day, he won't eat the stuff!

[hzrt8w]

During my trips to HK, I never saw hot mustard at the table - dim sum or otherwise.  I don't know many HK people who use mustard - far as I know within our community, it's considered a Western condiment.  Usually the spice is provided by chiles and not mustard.  Mustard on cheong fun?  Who does that?  (Then again, I think the yeow tew in cheong fun is a little much....)

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Sure we use mustard. What's a particularly good combination is when you eat BBQ items (pork, gizzards, intestines, chicken feet, etc.), you mix a bit of sesame oil, some mustard and a bit of hoisin sauce. That condiment combination is the best.

As for cheung fun... most won't use mustard. But putting on some hoisin sauce (or the locals called "sweet sauce" - more red color), chili sauce, soy, sesame paste and sesames. It's great! Yeow tew (savory fried bread dough) in cheung fun is very popular too. I love it.

The "Chinese" mustard is much hotter than the mustard most Americans put on their hot dogs. When I was working as a waiter in a Chinese restaurant, I saw a young customer came in. He ordered some appertizer (fried spareribs). We served it with sweet-and-sour sauce and mustard. He poured the mustard on to the sparerib in the same way one does on hot dogs and started to get his big bite. He almost choked!

Whatever and however people want to eat is cool by me but I don't think it's authentic to use duck sauce or mustard.  But if you enjoy eating it, go for it. 

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Duck sauce (really should be called what it is: plum sauce) and mustard, and any other condiment as well, all have places. To a Cantonese, plum sauce is usually for Roast Ducks only. But it doesn't mean you can put in on egg rolls, fried wonton, or on sushi for all anybody cares.

[wesza]

Ben, Dejah and Gastro888,

Thank you all for the honor of being part of your heritage.

I have a Seattle friend whose parents are originally from Toysan whose father is 88 years old and is recovering from a stroke. Since his parents left China at a very young age he and his siblings speak village Cantonese barely, but are not familiar with most traditional Chinese foods.

I was thinking that my favorite "Toysan Dish" that was only available at several Restaurants in Hong Kong located in "Kowloon City" and "North Point" or prepared by someones Grandma would be a special treat if anyone has a recipe. My wife learned to prepare several versions, but her recipes are in storage hard to access so if anyone can help I would appreciate the information.

"Loufo-tong" was the type of Soup, that simmered all day long at the Home or Restaurants where it was served in many variations always the most popular menu choice even though it was considered a humble soup of the day. It was always worth the trip to be able to enjoy these soups often made with Pork Neck and Back Bones, Chicken Feet and on Holidays with Large Chunks of Pork Shoulder, rarely with Seafood except Salt Fish, Dates, Herbs and ?

Whenever I eat at a new Chinese Restaurant I always ask if there is a "Soup of the Day" but this seems to be something not done at least in Seattle. The only time I ever get to eat a Soup different from the menu choices is at places where they know me well enough that I will be offered whatever Soup's being served for the staff meal, rarely do I get lucky but when I do I really enjoy eating the soups.

Thank you,

Irwin

[hzrt8w]

Whenever I eat at a new Chinese Restaurant I always ask if there is a "Soup of the Day" but this seems to be something not done at least in Seattle. The only time I ever get to eat a Soup different from the menu choices is at places where they know me well enough that I will be offered whatever Soup's being served for the staff meal, rarely do I get lucky but when I do I really enjoy eating the soups.

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It probably depends on the city. In San Francisco and Sacramento where I live, "house" soups are very common and are all complimentary because of fierce competition in the Chinese restaurant business -- even at restaurants where they offer "specials" -- dishes at only US $5.25 during dinner time.

The next time you visit San Francisco, try "East Ocean" restaurant (726 Clement Street in Richmond District).

[Ben Hong]

Lo fo tong or literally "old (long) fire soup" is a standby for many Chinese restaurants of the neighbourhood or village style. In old Chinatown (Spadina-Dundas area) of Toronto, there's at least two mom and pop holes-in-the-wall where they still carry on this tradition. Very plain, very rudimentary places where there's literally a "mom and pop" or in Toisanese "ah Sook and ah Sim" (aunt and uncle). In these places you will find a heated steam table with the cooked meats of the day, that is, lots of offal cooked loo style, your varieties of bbq poultry and meats, stews, joong, noodles, etc. *drool, slurp*.

Whenever I enter one of these places to grab a meal I am greeted like my real aunt or any matronly Chinese woman would , that of course makes me feel as if I have arrived home after travelling Lord knows where. There are no formalities here, just like you wouldn't expect any when you go to your mother's. The style is matter of fact; greetings, wash your hands, sit down, then "ah Sim" brings you a cup of tea, chopsticks and spoon and ask what you would prefer today. That question is often unnecessary, because one would always say I'll have what "ah Sook" cooked especially well today, or please make the choice for me (I like everything that I see). She would then go to the front to her helpmate and ask for something on my behalf, go to the kitchen to bring me a huge bowl of lo fo tong, and hence to the front of the place where my meal is all ready; whether it's something over rice, a couple of small dishes of bbq, stews or whatever, maybe a few sprigs of gai lon or yu choy and of course all the rice you can eat. For under $5.00 Cdn, I have to carry my stomach out the door . This is not fancy, it's not pricey, it's not haute cuisine but it is HONEST food, that is wholesome, soul satisfying stuff that only a frugal Toisanese would appreciate. BTW the more they see you, the bigger the portions .

Now back to your question. Lo fo tong can be anything that you want to put into a soup pot, the proviso being that all ingredients can last some time in the simmering process and that they also need a long time over gentle heat to fully develop flavour. Common tongs are "Choy gon (dried bok choy) and dried duck webs with red jujubes and pork bones, carrots with bbq bones and chin pay, lobok gnow lam, 4-flavours soup, ching bo leng, lo fo watercress soup, etc., etc. These soups are uncommonly flavourful and savoury (no msg) because all the remainders of the bbq pig, and other meats go into the stock (there's no shortage).

Omigod, do I drool!!!

[wesza]

Ben:

It's like you were eating with my family tonight. My daughters "Birthday Meal" that I prepared was at her request what Mommy made for us during the Cold weather [65 degrees] in Hong Kong.

I made without knowing the name }"Choy Gon Soup" the Dried Bok Choi with Dry Duck Giblets, Dry Duck Web, Dates in a Meaty Pork Bone Stock with some Far Due Wine. For the entrée I prepared Boneless Pork Leg [Top Round] prepared "Braised Red Cooked" that we bring to the table the whole piece covered in it's gravy the cut up table side with Scissors and served.

I also made "Baked Salted Chicken in Clay" giving the Birthday Girl the Hammer to do the honor. Served with a Chopped Ginger, Parsley, Garlic, Peanut Oil Condiment.

Vegetable was "Baby Pea Sprouts" quickly sautéed served with picked Dungeness Crab Meat in White Sauce over the Pea Sprouts with Baked Quail Eggs as a decorative edible garnish,

Our "Rice" was steamed together with "Duck Sausage", "Salted Oil Duck" and "Vancouver Lap Cheong".

This was the first time my 3 grand daughters had ever eaten the Chicken or the Pork which the helped me to prepare requesting that we make other of Grandma's dishes together in the future.

Will I be able to find any places in Vancouver or Richmond area when I visit Vancouver that serve Toysan ?

Irwin :

[Ben Hong]

Irwin, what you served your family would be a classic Chinese banquet by any description. I admire your sense of adventure.

As for places that serve Toisan dishes in Van, your best bet would be to ask. I haven't spent any time in Van's Chinatown oh, it must be five years. My last few trips there have been in and out types and Richmond is normally where my business contacts and friends gravitate. Keep looking though because there are still a large residual population of old style places around Chinatown.

[Gastro888]

Wow, Ben, I never knew there were restaurants like that! We certainly didn't have them in the DC/DelMarVa area. There were probably restaurants like that in NYC/SF, I'll bet. Wow. That's fascinating. (UNCLE BEN, WRITE A BOOK, WILL YOU?!)

Honestly, my mother never made lo fo tong the way you describe. I love choi gon tong - I always feel healither after drinking those soups. Growing up, I was rarely sick and I attribute it to the power of the tonic soups my mom made. Even drinking simple Chinese tea will make you feel better on a so-so day. Ah, the blessings of the Chinese cuisine.

[JasonZ]

Thank you all for a fascinating education ... it shows me how much I have to learn!!

I am European-born, American-raised, but Chinese by gastronomic choice ... may I ask a few questions?

I haven't seen the term "Toisanese" in any of my cookbooks -- is it more descriptive of a region, of a people, or a subculture? How can I find out more about its cuisine? Any recommendations for restaurants in NYC that would be Toisanese authentic?

Thanks again,

JasonZ

[Gastro888]

Hey JasonZ-

Thanks for asking. I defer to our resident experts, Ben Hong and Dejah for answers to your questions about Toisan. In regards to a restaurant in NYC for Toisan cuisine, there really isn't one - you'll get the Cantonese cooking but it's hard to find Toisanese cooking. Most of the dishes are homestyle, not meant for restaurant consumption, ya know? (It's country village cuisine...good, decent, salt of the earth food but not restaurant cuisine)

Toisan people are Cantonese, so I guess you can say we're a subculture but we're definitely distinct.

[Ben Hong]

Gastro is right.

Toisan is a small coastal county in Guangchou province (adjacent to Hong Kong). It was the source of the manpower that built the railroads and opened the mines and lumber camps in the late 19th-early 20th century. Up until the late 1960s Toisanese people comprised 95% of ALL the Chinese population in North America. The so called Chinese food that was generally available to the general population up to the 1970s was a bastardized and corrupted version of Toisan and Cantonese foods. (I never heard of kungpao chicken or the silly old fart called General Tso. I really would be surprised if any Toisan mother made sweet and sour spareribs or foo yong for her family).

[sheetz]

Toisan is part of the Cantonese culinary region, so you probably won't find any restaurants that specialize in "Toisanese" food, just Cantonese. In essence, the Toisanese are the countrified cousins of the city slickers in Guangzhou (Canton)and Hong Kong, and this is reflected in their respective cuisines. While the food in HK and Guangzhou is more refined and sophisticated, the food of Toisan is more rustic and earthy.

[hzrt8w]

The nearby Thunder Valley Casion offers seafood buffet for $24.99 in weekends. All-you-can-eat king crab legs! This single item alone would worth the ticket price. The king crab legs are served hot - steamed - with the customary melted butter. The butter tastes good but I got stuffed quickly.

Next time, I am thinking of bringing some Chinese sauces or condiments to the buffet. What I have been thinking are:

- A jar of Yank Sing Hot Sauce or XO Sauce

- A mix of sesame oil and Chinese red vinegar

Can you think of any other Chinese ready-made sauces/condiments that would go well with steamed king crab legs? Maybe soy sauce?

[SundaySous]

$25? your making me both hungry and jealous. Bring a large ziplock bag 1/2 filled with ice. Take your first plate of crab legs and remove the meat to the bag. Now go back for second plate, careful to leave a guard at your table. Now you have both steamed and chilled crab.

Why limit yourself to Chinese?