Eating Adventures in Atlanta

[tanabutler]

Well Robyn, historically, you and I never seem to see eye-to-eye…and this is just one more instance.  You opinion is noted and respected.  However your statement about my grading of The Dining Room is faulty.  The restaurant received a “B” grade based not on the chocolate dessert but rather on six of the previously served dishes. In fact, as I noted, I felt the chocolate dessert was outstanding based on my general dislike for chocolate (and if anything, this dish helped raise the grade.)

Emphasis mine.

Jeff, I was hoping you'd see that and note it.

I have no idea of the history between you and Robyn, or Robyn and anyone, mostly, and this is not an issue for me, asking about what one experiences in a chef's tasting.

This is probably going to evolve into a new thread. I have many Tasting Menu questions to ask.

Varmint? You cain't have my okra. It's all in reserve for Chef Hemant or Suvir to turn into something edible. So shush.

[docsconz]

Great report and discussion. I have my own opinions on Tasting menus, whiich coincide with a number of posters here. They can be found as part of the discussion on this thread.. Thanks, Tana, for turning me on to this report.

[robyn]

I have to come down on Robyn's side on this discussion. If you look at a tasting menu and realize that half of the items are things you don't really enjoy, then don't get the tasting menu. I ate at The Dining Room about three weeks ago and had the signature menu (the same option as in the original post, but somewhat different that evening), largely because I looked at it and decided  that I particularly wanted the things offered on that menu. Had they not appealed I'd have ordered a la carte (except that there isn't really an a la carte option at The Dining Room---you're either ordering the short menu or the long one and that's the the end of that).

In the case of a chocolate dessert, well, it's chocolate. And it's altogether unlikely that Bruno Menard (who is a great guy and a talented chef, no question about it) is going to do something so transcendently wonderful with chocolate on this one particular occasion that I'm going to say "Thank goodness I got the chocolate, my meal would otherwise have been ruined". I'm a lot more likely to say "Oh, god, I'm going to die. Why did I get the chocolate? It's too heavy for me. I know to never get the chocolate dessert." And for all his careful design of the signature menu, if you asked him personally whether or not he thought it was important that you have the chocolate dessert, he'd look at you and laugh and say "Fuck, are you kidding? Get what you want."

When I went there last summer - I had the Crustacean menu (I'd call it more of a "theme" menu than a tasting menu). Sounds a little silly - but I love crustaceans - and light seafood is perfect for the south in the summer (the first 3 courses were cold courses - which wouldn't normally suit me except I'd been traipsing around in 95 degree heat all day - so cold courses hit the spot).

We did meet Bruno Menard our last trip. Very nice guy. When he saw how much we were enjoying what we were eating - he brought out a couple of "new experimental" dishes for us to sample. He seems to love diners who are enthusiastic about his food - and we love chefs who are enthusiastic about their diners. A perfect match.

As for chocolate - there are people who love it and people who can leave it alone. I'm in the former camp. My husband is in the latter. My most memorable dessert this most recent trip to London was (of course) a chocolate dessert. Robyn

[robyn]

Well Robyn, historically, you and I never seem to see eye-to-eye…and this is just one more instance.  You opinion is noted and respected.  However your statement about my grading of The Dining Room is faulty.  The restaurant received a “B” grade based not on the chocolate dessert but rather on six of the previously served dishes.  In fact, as I noted, I felt the chocolate dessert was outstanding based on my general dislike for chocolate (and if anything, this dish helped raise the grade.)

Off the top of my head, I can list 5 meals I’ve eaten in the past year that have exceeded to greatly-exceeded my meal at The Dining Room.  When I’m presented with dishes that are overwhelmed by assertively cacophonous flavors, contain components that are overcooked, and lack proper saucing then obviously I’m not going to give the meal an “A”.  While The Dining Room may be the best restaurant in the Southeast, keep in mind, I’m grading against the rest of the country.  My grades are given based on food, service, and value; and are never based on a single dish.

I don't remember people as much as I remember postings. So I can't remember our areas of disagreement (I'll take your word about it).

Just curious - where are the meals you've eaten in the last year you thought were better than the Dining Room? No question there are better fine dining restaurants in the world (I've just returned from a week of eating in London - and had at least 3 meals there that were better).

But I get terribly confused when someone gives Mary Mac's (a touristy fried chicken place where the fried chicken in my opinion isn't even that good) or the Varsity (the kind of greasy spoon burger/hot dog place you see profiled on The Food Network as a "local institution") a better absolute rating than the Dining Room. Or perhaps your ratings weren't meant to be absolute? If you want to say that the Dining Room is a B compared to an A++ at ADNY for fine dining (perhaps 2 New York Times stars as opposed to 4 - or 1 Michelin star as opposed to 3) - I couldn't disagree with that. But don't tell me that the Varsity is an "A" and the Dining Room is a "B" - unless you have some really warped idea of what you're supposed to find and like when you're traveling in the southeast. Are you saying that about the best you hope to find when you eat in the southeast is fried chicken and hot dogs and BBQ - and that other diners who travel here ought to stick to those timeworn cliches? Robyn (southerner by choice and proud of it)

Edited June 6, 2004 by robyn (log)

[robyn]

I have no idea of the history between you and Robyn, or Robyn and anyone, mostly, and this is not an issue for me...

I had no idea we had a "history" either .

My goal here is to encourage people to explore fine dining options in the southeast (the southeast - it isn't all about BBQ anymore <sigh of relief>). We don't have much - and we're probably not world class yet - but we should patronize it so we don't revert to all BBQ - all the time 10 years from now. I live in the Jacksonville FL area - where we've just gotten our first hints of finer restaurants in the last 5 years. Should I trash them because they're not as good as the best in London or New York? No way. Because 10 years from now - I don't want to live in a city where the only dining quest is for the best fried chicken. Robyn

[docsconz]

I may be wrong, but my interpretation of the ratings were based on value, in other words the quality of the experience per dollar spent.

[therese]

may be wrong, but my interpretation of the ratings were based on value, in other words the quality of the experience per dollar spent.

Yeah, let's hope.

But the Varsity still way over-rated. Unless, of course, jeffj was actually paid to eat the food there.

Even my children won't eat a Varsity hot dog. A frosted orange, sure, and onion rings if you manage to get them before the fryer fat's broken down into a fatty acid nightmare, but that's pretty much it. The Varsity does actually make a nice chicken salad sandwich, but then that's nobody's idea of what you "should" be eating there, so never mind. Better to hang out looking the pimps and hookers like we expect, right?

[robyn]

I may be wrong, but my interpretation of the ratings were based on value, in other words the quality of the experience per dollar spent.

I don't know how you do that. It's as silly as trying to compare your meal at Per Se with a hot dog from a street vendor in New York. Or a meal at ADNY with a meal at a dim sum place in Chinatown. Would you ever try to do that?

My rule when it comes to fine dining world wide is that price or any concept of value simply isn't an issue. You grade the food - that's it. It would be impossible to do things differently simply because costs in major cities vary a lot (e.g., our meals in London were probably 30-40% more expensive than similar meals in New York - should I downgrade all our meals in London because of that?) - and the costs of ingredients in high end restaurants can affect the price of a meal rather markedly (you want truffles and caviar and foie gras and lobster and vintage wine in the restaurant you'll pay X - you want the local pork loin with the local wine in the same restaurant - you'll pay a lot less).

When a person attempts to review food - I think he or she has to compare apples with apples. Robyn

[Truffle]

For anyone with feedback, input on a restaurant in the Atlanta vicinity with the name one part Cheyenne's............please post! Many thanks.

[Gifted Gourmet]

For anyone with feedback, input on a restaurant in the Atlanta vicinity with the name one part Cheyenne's............please post! Many thanks.

Cheyenne's Mexican Restaurante

700 Sandy Plains Rd, Suite B-1

Marietta, GA 30066

[jeffj]

When a person attempts to review food - I think he or she has to compare apples with apples.  Robyn

I'll keep this brief...the statement above is exactly correct. The whole point of my grades is to compare apples to apples. Of course I'm not comparing The Dining Room to The Varsity and stating that The Varsity presents better food. That comparison would be utterly ridiculous...kinda like comparing apples to oranges wouldn't you say. So you can't directly compare a Varsity 'A' grade with a Dining Room 'B' grade. I guess I assumed that was obvious.

The Varsity gets an 'A' in the realm of sub $10 fast food joints that serve traditional american fare (ie burgers, hot dogs, fries, etc.)

The Dining Room gets a 'B' when compared to over $150 meals that are served in the nation's finest restaurants (ie ADNY, The French Laundry, etc.)

I guess I should have realized that including grades in my reviews would cause controversy. But their whole point is to help people judge how a restaurant compares to other similar restaurants.

Five better meals I had in the last year: two meals at The French Laundry, two meals at Trio, a meal at Charlie Trotters, and possibly a meal at Fifth Floor.

Don't think that a 'B' is negative...I've also had several 5 star meals in the past year that have been worse than The Dining Room...

P.S. As for The Varsity...my girlfriend agrees with you therese...she didn't find it to be as enjoyable as I did.

[Gifted Gourmet]

I guess I should have realized that including grades in my reviews would cause controversy.  But their whole point is to help people judge how a restaurant compares to other similar restaurants.

I had thought of your "grading system" as being more of a list for "the best of " category restaurant, a system which would allow one to compare apples with apples.

Thanks for your followup for clarification of the grades you gave. At a very initial, cursory reading of your post, I thought that the vaunted Ritz Carleton got a B while the Varsity got an A ?? ... in retrospect, I see it more clearly.

Perhaps a code to explain your "grading" at the beginning of the post might make things simpler.

[therese]

P.S. As for The Varsity...my girlfriend agrees with you therese...she didn't find it to be as enjoyable as I did.

Admit it, jeffj, you just liked it because they gave you one of those hats, didn't you?

[For those of you've who've not had the, ahem, pleasure of dining chez V, children (and anybody else who wants one) are given those little paper caps that male counter staff wear, the sort that fold flat into a rectangle.]

[Gifted Gourmet]

Admit it, jeffj, you just liked it because they gave you one of those hats, didn't you?

You think jeffj really sold out his rating on the Varsity for a paper hat?? Migawd, what is this world coming to?

maybe the Ritz Carleton needs to rethink their meals and try a "gimmick" ...

[robyn]

Admit it, jeffj, you just liked it because they gave you one of those hats, didn't you?

You think jeffj really sold out his rating on the Varsity for a paper hat?? Migawd, what is this world coming to?

maybe the Ritz Carleton needs to rethink their meals and try a "gimmick" ...

The Ritz Carlton does have a "gimmick" - a dessert trolley like ADNY. Of course - it might not be enough of an inducement for someone who wants a paper hat . Robyn

[therese]

My next visit to The Dining Room I'm planning on taking the shorter menu just so I'll have more room for the sweets trolley.

The hell with the hat.

[robyn]

The Varsity gets an 'A' in the realm of sub $10 fast food joints that serve traditional american fare (ie burgers, hot dogs, fries, etc.)

The Dining Room gets a 'B' when compared to over $150 meals that are served in the nation's finest restaurants (ie ADNY, The French Laundry, etc.)...

No problem. I can buy that. The three restaurants where I had better food in London were 1 Michelin 3 star and 2 Michelin 1 stars (and the 1 stars were both new - the 1 star was the first Michelin rating). And they were more in the $300+ plus range (a pound buys roughly what a dollar does - but the pound costs about $1.80). I think the Dining Room compares favorably with what I'd call the "second tier" of fine dining restaurants (which certainly wouldn't include the restaurants you mentioned). So - in that context - B is about right. I haven't found any first tier restaurants in the southeast yet - indeed they are few and far between no matter where you travel. Robyn

[micropundit]

Interesting discourse.A point that could use some clarification is : what is fine dining in the context of the Southeast?For example,Atlanta is tied with New Yorkand Chicago for the most Mobile 5 star restaurants-2- acoording to the 2004 ratings.Yet New Orleans is considered to be the fine dining capital of the region.A similar situation obtains with regard to the AAA 5 Diamond awards-Atlanta is the leader among Southeast /Southwest cities.I realize that it is an article of Faith that no southern restaurant could possibly compare with New York's finest,however is it possible that there are some better than passing offerings below the Mason Dixon line?

[robyn]

Interesting discourse.A point that  could use some clarification is : what is fine dining in the context of the Southeast?For example,Atlanta is tied with New Yorkand Chicago for the most Mobile 5 star restaurants-2- acoording to the 2004 ratings.Yet New Orleans is considered to be the fine dining capital of the region.A similar situation obtains with regard to the AAA 5 Diamond awards-Atlanta is the leader among Southeast /Southwest cities.I realize that it is an article of Faith that no southern restaurant could possibly compare with New York's finest,however is it possible that there are some better than passing offerings below the Mason Dixon line?

I think perhaps a better phrase than "fine dining" when I'm talking about the Dining Room in Atlanta is world class. And - when I'm talking world class - it doesn't matter where the restaurant is - the southeast specs aren't any different than those anywhere else. Given this context - I think a "B" world class restaurant - which the Dining Room probably is - is usually an excellent place to dine. And it beats out a lot of restaurants I've dined at in places like New York.

I don't know much about Mobil ratings - but I looked it up and there are only 13 star restaurants in the US. I've only eaten at 3 - so I don't know enough to comment on that particular rating system.

In my opinion - the southeast has a lot of "good eats" - which I generally prefer to mediocre "fine dining" (which I define as $100+ restaurants with kind of ho-hum food). I find that my best eating experiences - no matter where I am - tend to polarize at the ends - "good eats" and "world class".

Just an aside about New Orleans. I'm sure this won't make me popular - but I'm not especially fond of most of the food I've eaten there because it has much much too much salt. My husband and I have a code phrase for it - "New Orleans mouth" - which means we wake up in the middle of the night after a meal somewhere and need to chug a liter of water. Robyn

[micropundit]

Robyn:

Thanks,that clears it up for me.

[destro800]

As fast as my beloved city is 'growing,' it remains -- and will remain -- a culinary and cultural backwater.

The truly good meals here are the ones that embrace the Southern (and more and more, the 'nuevo'-immigrant) vernacular and do not attempt to play catch up with the 'haute-quarters' of NYC, Spain, and Tokyo, etc.

Not trying to derail the conversation here -- an amazing job was done. I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

[therese]

Have to disagree, destro800. What truly good meals that embrace the Southern vernacular are we talking about here? Watershed fine, South City Kitchen hit or miss, a few others out there. Are we not supposed to prepare it or eat it if it doesn't contain Vidalia onions? Should Seeger and Menard just pack up their bags and leave us heathens to live on a steady diet of greens and cornbread?

[robyn]

As fast as my beloved city is 'growing,' it remains -- and will remain -- a culinary and cultural backwater.

The truly good meals here are the ones that embrace the Southern (and more and more, the 'nuevo'-immigrant) vernacular and do not attempt to play catch up with the 'haute-quarters' of NYC, Spain, and Tokyo, etc.

Not trying to derail the conversation here -- an amazing job was done. I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

I have seen uncouth uneducated (about food) people dining in Atlanta - but I have also seen similarly uncouth uneducated people dining in cities that are supposed to be "frontwaters" (as opposed to "backwaters" ). I think you give people in other parts of the world credit for more sophistication than they have (in general). Robyn

[Gifted Gourmet]

I think you give people in other parts of the world credit for more sophistication than they have (in general).

On this point, Robyn, I most certainly agree. The Europeans I expected to see were not going to the opera and eating elegant fare .. rather, it was a lot of regular folks in pubs and beerhalls who loved watching sports on their tellys ... and their eating habits were not unlike ours. Another illusion from the past.

[micropundit]

Have to disagree, destro800. What truly good meals that embrace the Southern vernacular are we talking about here? Watershed fine, South City Kitchen hit or miss, a few others out there. Are we not supposed to prepare it or eat it if it doesn't contain Vidalia onions? Should Seeger and Menard just pack up their bags and leave us heathens to live on a steady diet of greens and cornbread?

There are some points worth pondering here.What is Atlanta's culinary status in the grand scheme of things? Yes we have 2 5 star restaurants but one is on the brink and the fate of BLAIS was not a positive.COMMUNE has reportedly closed and many of the new(er) places are Johnson Studio clones.

Is there an Atlanta style;is it cutting edge;and,does anyone really care?