The French Laundry 2006 -

[robert40]

I very rarely read any complaints regarding service. Every so often I will hear of someone disappointed with the food which I contribute to personal taste. I have found that those who enjoy more pronounced bold flavors usually are more likely not to praise the food.

I also can't wait to hear what happened but suspect u.e. is busy traveling and will give us a full report soon.

[BigboyDan]

Well, I don't really want to get into the definition of "service" as it relates to restaurants, as much of what can be defined is from personal preference. But..., that's the point: the service should match the expectations of those served, or exceed them. The service that I experienced at TFL was indeed unique to that establishement, and if that is their intent, what are they thinking? As the old quip goes, "I have been to better places"... and I know what I know...

[molto e]

I felt our service was impeccable at TFL. As our resident "Doc" pointed out any restaurant is a human institution so there can be a lapse anywhere. This type of experience is an anomaly for TFL. It will be interesting to hear how the dissatisfaction was dealt with.

[ludja]

Well, I don't really want to get into the definition of "service" as it relates to restaurants, as much of what can be defined is from personal preference. But..., that's the point: the service should match the expectations of those served, or exceed them. The service that I experienced at TFL was indeed unique to that establishement, and if that is their intent, what are they thinking? As the old quip goes, "I have been to better places"... and I know what I know...

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It would be interesting to hear details if you remember some of the miscues.

edited to add: This is of course separate from your experience, but two good friends of mine who lived in France for over five years and had occasion to dine at a range of French-starred restaurants thought the service was comparable between TFL and the french starred restaurants. (They've been to TFL 3 or 4 times.) Interestingly, they do have a friend who is not native to France or the US but spent a bunch of time in France and now lives in the US who makes it an article of faith that no US restaurant can match the service in French starred restaurants. It wasn't surprising when his preconceptions were fulfilled in his one visit to TFL...

Again---Truly, I'm not saying this story has anything to do with your attitude or experience. It just reminded me of this guy b/c he also made a comparision to French starred restaurants. In his case, the fact that service at TFL would be less than a French star restaurant was an "idee fixe" before he ever went there though!

Edited May 18, 2006 by ludja (log)

[BigboyDan]

I never said that their were miscues. Service should never undermind the food, it should enhance it, sometimes literally, with table-side service. I just felt, knew, that the service was intentionally pretentious to the point of being a distraction. Now, the French perfected pretentious service, but they've learned to make it work... Also, French servers at multi-starred restaurants know damn well that they are serving the best food on the planet, they have no doubts, and they don't need to sell it to the patron.

[ludja]

I just picked a word to capture your general displeasure with the service, sorry if it was felt to be a misrepresentation.

Do you think the fact that it was a tasting menu iwith many courses had an impact or were you comparing it to other similar tasting menu experiences?

(My friends said the service was a bit more intrusive on the one occasion they went there with a larger group which included six people as opposed to their other experiences with two to four people.)

[robert40]

Well, I don't really want to get into the definition of "service" as it relates to restaurants, as much of what can be defined is from personal preference. But..., that's the point: the service should match the expectations of those served, or exceed them. The service that I experienced at TFL was indeed unique to that establishement, and if that is their intent, what are they thinking? As the old quip goes, "I have been to better places"... and I know what I know...

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It would be interesting to hear details if you remember some of the miscues.

edited to add: This is of course separate from your experience, but two good friends of mine who lived in France for over five years and had occasion to dine at a range of French-starred restaurants thought the service was comparable between TFL and the french starred restaurants. (They've been to TFL 3 or 4 times.) Interestingly, they do have a friend who is not native to France or the US but spent a bunch of time in France and now lives in the US who makes it an article of faith that no US restaurant can match the service in French starred restaurants. It wasn't surprising when his preconceptions were fulfilled in his one visit to TFL...

Again---Truly, I'm not saying this story has anything to do with your attitude or experience. It just reminded me of this guy b/c he also made a comparision to French starred restaurants. In his case, the fact that service at TFL would be less than a French star restaurant was an "idee fixe" before he ever went there though!

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You make a interesting point and one that I have believed ever since the FL opened.

Too clarify this is in no means directed at any recent post just a general opinion. But I always thought that those going into the French Laundry with the preconceived show me your the best attitude usually leave disappointed and those going in with I'm leaving this experience in your hands and I'm here to enjoy myself leave with an experience of a lifetime.

[russ parsons]

there's always a lot of that, but it's also true that the french laundry has a definite style of service, just as they have a definite style of cuisine. it is one they work very hard at perfecting. it is very ceremonial and not a little showy sometimes, though a lot of fun if you let yourself get into the spirit of it. the staff has terrific elan. if you accept it at face value, it can be seen as enhancing the experience of the meal ... after all, in real life who wouldn't want to have that many highly trained servants eager to make us happy? if you go in expecting that it is going to be another pretentious restaurant, i'm sure you can find that, too.

[BigboyDan]

preconceived

Uh... I've worked in two three-starred French restaurants; and have eaten at all of them, except La Ferme de mon Père in Megève. As I stated: I know what I know... TFL is exellent, but I'd change the intent of the service for a restaurant offering that level of food... it matters...

[robert40]

I guess the bottom line is its all about personal preference. I can point out reports by people who claim they were treated like second class citizens at L'Ambroisie.

[BigboyDan]

I guess the bottom line is its all about personal preference. I can point out reports by people who claim they were treated like second class citizens at L'Ambroisie.

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Ha! Too true... when you feed Prime Ministers and former Presidents...

[docsconz]

I never said that their were miscues. Service should never undermind the food, it should enhance it, sometimes literally, with table-side service. I just felt, knew, that the service was intentionally pretentious to the point of being a distraction. Now, the French perfected pretentious service, but they've learned to make it work...  Also, French servers at multi-starred restaurants know damn well that they are serving the best food on the planet, they have no doubts, and they don't need to sell it to the patron.

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This is at least an explanation of why you were disatisfied with the service there. That goes back to my point about the style of service and how it may not be for everyone. I remain curious about what caused such a strong reaction from U.E. Because the reaction was so strongly stated it begs for explanation.

[ulterior epicure]

I never said that their were miscues. Service should never undermind the food, it should enhance it, sometimes literally, with table-side service. I just felt, knew, that the service was intentionally pretentious to the point of being a distraction. Now, the French perfected pretentious service, but they've learned to make it work...  Also, French servers at multi-starred restaurants know damn well that they are serving the best food on the planet, they have no doubts, and they don't need to sell it to the patron.

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This is at least an explanation of why you were disatisfied with the service there. That goes back to my point about the style of service and how it may not be for everyone. I remain curious about what caused such a strong reaction from U.E. Because the reaction was so strongly stated it begs for explanation.

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I want to apologize for having made such an inflamatory remark without qualification - knowing that (robert40 was correct) I would be too imminently busy to elaborate on my statement. As I feared, my statement resulted in the unmentionable hitting the eGullet fan.

Other than being extremely occupied with the move-back-home, I also decided that it would only be fair to air out my grievances with the restaurant before posting about it here on a public forum. Regardless of the service I received, I owed at least that much in the way of courtesy to TFL and its staff. I also admit being a bit cautious about posting too much about my experience lest I become too transparent on eGullet (ie. my real person, btw, if any TFL staff are reading and can identify me by what I post, I ask that you respect my privacy). But, I did "set myself up" in my earlier posting, so I will follow-through with an explanation.

That being said, I must keep you all waiting just a bit longer for an elaborate account of my meal. I will say this - my experience was not a difference in preference in the style of service (I think that my restaurant experiences and reactions, for those on eGullet who know me well, dispell that notion) unless you call the missives I encountered a "style" of service. As I had noted in my blog review of Per Se (and many other restaurants), formal service doesn't bother me the least bit. In fact, the service at Per Se, I found specatucular, and not all that different from TFL.

Also, I will say that I have nothing against Thomas Keller. Despite my experience, I still respect him as a talented chef, proprietor, businessman, and pioneer; I'm sure he deserves all of the praise and accolades he's received.

Lastly, I am perfectly capable of separating food from service. The food at TFL, in short, was overall, pretty solid. There was one pretty bad course, but the rest were either okay, or really dazzling. On an average, I would say I like my TFL menu much more than my meal at Per Se. (By the way, if it hasn't already been mentioned on this thread - both TFL and PS have moved to a new menu format as of a couple of months ago. When I visited PS, there were three menus offered - 7-course, 9-Course meat, 9-Course vegetarian. Now, both restaurants order a meat menu (around 10-12 courses) and a vegetarian menu).

...more later... very sorry about this disjointed and rather dodgy post. I promise I will elaborate when I have more time.

u.e.

[docsconz]

I never said that their were miscues. Service should never undermind the food, it should enhance it, sometimes literally, with table-side service. I just felt, knew, that the service was intentionally pretentious to the point of being a distraction. Now, the French perfected pretentious service, but they've learned to make it work...  Also, French servers at multi-starred restaurants know damn well that they are serving the best food on the planet, they have no doubts, and they don't need to sell it to the patron.

←

This is at least an explanation of why you were disatisfied with the service there. That goes back to my point about the style of service and how it may not be for everyone. I remain curious about what caused such a strong reaction from U.E. Because the reaction was so strongly stated it begs for explanation.

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I want to apologize for having made such an inflamatory remark without qualification - knowing that (robert40 was correct) I would be too imminently busy to elaborate on my statement. As I feared, my statement resulted in the unmentionable hitting the eGullet fan.

Other than being extremely occupied with the move-back-home, I also decided that it would only be fair to air out my grievances with the restaurant before posting about it here on a public forum. Regardless of the service I received, I owed at least that much in the way of courtesy to TFL and its staff. I also admit being a bit cautious about posting too much about my experience lest I become too transparent on eGullet (ie. my real person, btw, if any TFL staff are reading and can identify me by what I post, I ask that you respect my privacy). But, I did "set myself up" in my earlier posting, so I will follow-through with an explanation.

...more later... very sorry about this disjointed and rather dodgy post. I promise I will elaborate when I have more time.

u.e.

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I very much appreciate the time factor involved in putting together posts after such an extensive trip as well as the need to maintain a life outside of this realm and also appreciate your addressing your statement at least this much. That you would address the issues with the restaurant before airing them here is worthy of appreciation as well, however, the fact remains that a very provocative statement was made and remains essentially unclarified. Style issues aside, TFL has a very strong reputation for very professional service. My own experience supports that. Based on your statement that the problem was not one of style and given my own experience at the restaurant I can only conclude that whatever the problem may have been, it was likely unique to your specific experience. I will be very surprised and curious indeed should the issue be of a more systemic nature.

[ulterior epicure]

I very much appreciate the time factor involved in putting together posts after such an extensive trip as well as the need to maintain a life outside of this realm and also appreciate your addressing your statement at least this much. That you would address the issues with the restaurant before airing them here is worthy of appreciation as well, however, the fact remains that  a very provocative statement was made and remains essentially unclarified.

Thanks doc for puttin' on the pressure ...and so, I clarify...

Style issues aside, TFL has a very strong reputation for very professional service. My own experience supports that. Based on your statement that the problem was not one of style and given my own experience at the restaurant I can only conclude that whatever the problem may have been, it was likely unique to your specific experience. I will be very surprised and curious indeed should the issue be of a more systemic nature.

I will say that doc is right in guessing that the service issues that we encountered were not "systemic" in nature. Rather, they were (I hope), isolated to this particular evening/meal. Any one of the mistakes, alone, could have easily been overlooked... but in total, there were just too many to ignore - which really compounded our displeasure (I use "our" because at least four others in my party agreed, after the dinner, that the service had been noticeably bad).

1. Our meal started on a promising note. Our head server was very attentive, friendly and accomodating. My request to see the kicthen was taken care of before we were seated. The reception was very welcoming.

2. We (collectively) noticed a change in attitude in our head server after we decided to forego wine. We all know my story... but the rest, who had rather long drives to their hotels, wanted to avoid being too effected, so they stuck with lightweight drinks. Service slowed down markedly toward the end of service. Although our waters were topped of vigilantly (see #3), we did find it hard to get our head server's attention a few times - also pacing seemed to slow down between courses (this may have been an issue in the kitchen). Regardless, it became apparent that the other tables, that were ordering alcohol, were moving at a more even pace - especially a boisterous party of seven that had all started out with some bubbly and proceeded on with more alcohol pairings. They were getting much more attention, in part, explaining our oft-AWOL server(s).

3. A couple in our party ordered sparkling water - which was poured into the non-bubbly water drinkers' cups a couple of times... then, these half-bubbly/half tap glasses were topped off with tap... after the mistake had been brought to our server's attention. He apologized and promised that no more mistakes would be made. Another bottle of sparkling was promptly opened.

I wouldn't mention this occurence except for the fact that the two in our party that had ordered the sparkling water still had their glasses full and there was a 1/2 bottle left - this mistake happened on the very last meat course... there was no reason to pour out the 1/2 bottle - unless perhaps our server wanted to up the beverage tab (which I have no idea what incentive he would have given that the gratuity is fixed...). It just seemed odd...

4. I specifically asked for the dessert wine/after-dinner drinks menu during our cheese course - emphasizing that we would like to have our drinks arrive with our last dessert (two courses after cheese). I had to ask again for the drink menu twice - it showed up half-way through our dessert. After-dinner drinks didn't show up until just before our mignardises...

5. One of my guests was celebrating a birthday. I mentioned it to a server before our dinner and was promised that some acknowledgment would be made at dessert. Nothing was done. It was only after I reminded the host after our dinner that an apology was made. When I did mention the missive, the host remembered immediately that I had indeed put in a request for a birthday and that he was very sorry and disappointed that nothing materialized. So was I.

6. Post-dessert service became very sloooooooooow. Just to give you an idea - a four-top that had been seated 10 minutes before us had already been gone for nearly an hour-and-a-half... their successors were well on their way toward dessert. We had survived two two-tops that had come a good half-hour after-us. Mignardises were dropped off without any mention as to what they were. If it weren't for the fact that I had gone to Per Se, there was no way we would have known why some of us got creme brulee while others got panna cotta. Oh by the way, I don't know how you eat creme brulee or panna cott without a spoon or fork... instead of asking, thankfully, we had all ordered either coffee or tea, and just used the spoons that came with our drinks.

7. Refills on coffee and teas were requested... and requested... and requested... then finally came just before the bill, which I also had to request (although I recognize that this may be in line with the traditional French style of service - wait to drop the check until asked for - which is understandable).

8. There was a confusion on the total bill amount. At this point, I finally excused myself and discreetly approached the management (ie. host), away from my guests and our servers, to point out the mistake on the bill, as well as the birthday missive. I also made a very general comment that I had found service lacking toward the end of service, not wanting to go into details... as by this point in the evening, I was too tired and upset to really care. To redress the issue, the host took off our drinks (water and a couple of beers).

9. I had requested way in advanced to have copies of our menu signed by Chef Lee for my guests and myself. These were forgotten. I finally remembered them after I had left the restaurant. I went back in to request them... they were presented.

I hope this "qualifies" my earlier "provocative" post. Again, sorry for the delay... but as you can see, there was just too much for me to post on the fly. There were also a few other small service issues really not worth mentioning.

Again, I must emphasize that I'm sure this was an unfortunate wrinkle in an otherwise flawless restaurant. I'm just really sorry it had to be us. My party was a gathering between a few of us that just graduated grad school, along with parents. Members in our party hailed from four different states... as many of you know, coordinating such a dinner was not easy... it was all very deflating.

Okay - on a brighter note - the food wasn't bad. As I've noted, one course in particular was very sub-standard, but on average, everything was expertly prepared and presented... but now, for a little half-time rest...

u.e.

Edited May 19, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[docsconz]

Thanks for filling in the details. It certainly sounds like the service was not up to their usual standards for your meal.

[ulterior epicure]

edited to add:  This is of course separate from your experience, but two good friends of mine who lived in France for over five years and had occasion to dine at a range of French-starred restaurants thought the service was comparable between TFL and the french starred restaurants. (They've been to TFL 3 or 4 times.)  Interestingly, they do have a friend who is not native to France or the US but spent a bunch of time in France and now lives in the US who makes it an article of faith that no US restaurant can match the service in French starred restaurants.  It wasn't surprising when his preconceptions were fulfilled in his one visit to TFL...

Again---Truly, I'm not saying this story has anything to do with your attitude or experience.  It just reminded me of this guy b/c he also made a comparision to French starred restaurants.  In his case, the fact that service at TFL would be less than a French star restaurant was an "idee fixe" before he ever went there though!

I honestly didn't know what to expect of TFL - food/service/atmosphere, etc... the only thing I had "fixed" in my mind was the service that I received at Per Se, and all of my other dining experiences... which does include a number of European Michelin-starred restaurants.

I would say that the style of service at TFL was very European in nature - but I didn't find it hoity-toity or too pretentious at all. I found (except for our particularly head server) the interaction courteous, professional, but somewhat short... not a bad thing, just snappy and minimal-contact-y. I'm used to it. I don't need (nor really care) to be coddled. I just need to be served in a prompt and courteous manner. A smile would be nice, but not expected... however, I would say that a number of the back-waiters were very personable.

Again, I found nothing wrong/disagreeable with the style... I just think that there were some issues going on with our particular head server and/or the way he/his staff managed our particular table.

u.e.

[BigboyDan]

The really big deal about bad service is either they don't understand that they are giving bad service (by 3-star standards), or they don't care if they are giving bad service - and, that they are pretentious about it. That just kills me...

[snekse]

I will say that doc is right in guessing that the service issues that we encountered were not "systemic" in nature.  Rather, they were (I hope), isolated to this particular evening/meal.  Any one of the mistakes, alone, could have easily been overlooked... but in total, there were just too many to ignore - which really compounded our displeasure (I use "our" because at least four others in my party agreed, after the dinner, that the service had been noticeably bad).

1. Our meal started on a promising note. 

2. We (collectively) noticed a change in attitude in our head server after we decided to forego wine.  ...  Service slowed down markedly toward the end of service. 

4. I specifically asked for the dessert wine/after-dinner drinks menu during our cheese course - emphasizing that we would like to have our drinks arrive with our last dessert (two courses after cheese).  I had to ask again for the drink menu twice - it showed up half-way through our dessert.  After-dinner drinks didn't show up until just before our mignardises...

5. One of my guests was celebrating a birthday.  I mentioned it to a server before our dinner and was promised that some acknowledgment would be made at dessert.  Nothing was done. 

6. Post-dessert service became very sloooooooooow. 

7. Refills on coffee and teas were requested... and requested... and requested... then finally came just before the bill, which I also had to request (although I recognize that this may be in line with the traditional French style of service - wait to drop the check until asked for - which is understandable).

Again, I must emphasize that I'm sure this was an unfortunate wrinkle in an otherwise flawless restaurant. 

Okay - on a brighter note - the food wasn't bad.  As I've noted, one course in particular was very sub-standard, but on average, everything was expertly prepared and presented...

u.e.

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Holy smokes, it's like we shared a table, just 4 months apart....

[docsconz]

6. Post-dessert service became very sloooooooooow.  Just to give you an idea - a four-top that had been seated 10 minutes before us had already been gone for nearly an hour-and-a-half...  their successors were well on their way toward dessert.  We had survived two two-tops that had come a good half-hour after-us.  Mignardises were dropped off without any mention as to what they were.  If it weren't for the fact that I had gone to Per Se, there was no way we would have known why some of us got creme brulee while others got panna cotta.  Oh by the way, I don't know how you eat creme brulee or panna cott without a spoon or fork...  instead of asking, thankfully, we had all ordered either coffee or tea, and just used the spoons that came with our drinks. 

u.e.

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One interesting aspect of this whole experience is that other tables at the restaurant that night appeared to have different service experiences to your own. It is very unfortunate that you had this experience there. I have had disappointing service in other restaurants at which the food was at a distinctly high level. As much as the service did not match the level of the food and adversely effected my overall experience, it was only bad in a relative sense in that the quality of the service did not match the quality of the food.. Your specific experience as you described it was in some ways worse than mine in that they caused apparently greater aggravation at a time when you are paying to avoid aggravation.

[ulterior epicure]

Holy smokes, it's like we shared a table, just 4 months apart....

Really? That's too bad... I'll try to find your post upthread

As much as the service did not match the level of the food and adversely effected my overall experience, it was only bad in a relative sense in that the quality of the service did not match the quality of the food.. Your specific experience as you described it was in some ways worse than mine in that they caused apparently greater aggravation at a time when you are paying to avoid aggravation.

doc, well put. It is true that the biggest disappointment with the service was that it did get in the way of allowing us to enjoy our meal. I think service, especially at a restaurant of TFL's caliber, becomes bad at the point in which it disrupts or detracts from the diners' experience/pleasure.

As you can imagine, having to make repeated requests for not-too-unreasonably expected things (ie. utensils, drinks, menus, etc.), miscalculating the bill, forgetting pre-arranged items, etc... became a distraction to our meal. As I stated above, any one of these mistakes would have happily been overlooked - but together, and toward the end of the meal in rapid succession, really compounded the aggravation. As doc also noted, for one of the only restaurants in the U.S. to charge an automatic gratuity, sub-standard service is the last thing I expected from TFL. In fact, based on my experience at its younger sister, Per Se, I had been commenting to my guests in the weeks leading up to the dinner, that I predicted we would get stellar service regardless of whether or not the food would be all that impressive.

Lastly, the fact that other tables were obviously getting better treatment only worsened the situation. While it was reassuring that TFL employs capable servers, it was at the same time really upsetting to personally experience a disparity. We truly felt like the step-children in the group.

u.e.

[rancho_gordo]

Did you end up contacting the manager? What was the response?

[chefperkey]

I will elaborate later... but from a recent meal at The French Laundry - it was bar none, the worst dining experience I've had in the U.S. in a LONG time.  The service was egregiously bad.  

u.e.

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OK, I'm sure that your experience was not a good one. But I would think that the above sentence is in context to the level of service expected vs. the level received. It could not have the been the "bar none, the worst" judging all restauraunts on a standad scale....could it?

I must say that my personal experience was one of the best I've ever had.

I can't wait to hear the details!

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[ulterior epicure]

Did you end up contacting the manager? What was the response?

Well, yes, I addressed some of the complaints with the host when I took my bill to be corrected (from the confusion on the total amount).

I have also written a letter to the restaurant. Honestly, as they had taken the drinks off of the bill, I'm not sure what more they could do, other than just apologize - and try to prevent future occurences.

u.e.

[chefperkey]

I will elaborate later... but from a recent meal at The French Laundry - it was bar none, the worst dining experience I've had in the U.S. in a LONG time.  The service was egregiously bad.  

u.e.

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OK, I'm sure that your experience was not a good one. But I would think that the above sentence is in context to the level of service expected vs. the level received. It could not have the been the "bar none, the worst" judging all restauraunts on a standad scale....could it?

I must say that my personal experience was one of the best I've ever had.

I can't wait to hear the details!

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I'm sure if this the thread (in fact I'm sure it is not) but this is a question I have thought about alot. Is it fair to compare high end restaurants to casual as far as our expections go. Is it fair for both the high end tasting menu restaurants as well as the casual. Obviously casual restaurants don't have the staff to provide the same level of service. This has nothing to do really with U.E. experience. From what he is saying this would have been dissapoimting at any level of restaurant. Yet there are plenty of casual restaurants that give both great service as well as great food yet they not often regaurded in the same way as the so called high end establishments. Anyway it is someyhing I have been thinking about for sometime and this disscusion has seemed inspired me to throw this out to the E-Gullet society.