Daniel

[R Washburn]

But I've had (to my tastes) better meals at L'Espinasse under Delouvrier, JG, Babbo, and would just be more inclined to revisit those than making a second stab at Daniel.

Of course they are subjective, and I wouldn't bother going back to a place at that price point if I was dissapointed.

I would think, though, that if you liked Delouvrier you would probably enjoy Daniel. Maybe you will if you ever revisit it someday.

[GordonCooks]

Daniel as a restaurant possesses certain 4 star opulence and luxury. Service and food are always at the upper level but it may not possess the "edge" other restaurants may have from reaching (and sometimes failing) to deliver.

[jeunefilleparis]

I am supposed to go their on aug 11th with my boss. We are both vegetarians so it will be intersting to see what they prepare for us. We have informed them already of our dietary needs..... I have always wanted to go to Daneil and Ducasse. My ex worked at Ducasse so that was my main reason for wanting to go there along with the fact that its well ducasse & I ve been to Spoon and Mix but never his signature

In any case, I am excited for my dinner, though I will be very aware of my surroundings. My best friend went there for her 24th birthday. They were dressed appropriately, ordered a nice menu etc, but she felt that they were treated a bit differently. That happend to me at Le Bernadin 2 years ago. I dont know if "ageism" is prevalent in any other places. I have been to Babbo, Jean Georges and Chanterelle in the past 7 months and had no problems there. The receptionists at Daniel have always been very kind when I ve walked in to ask for their new menus ( i work on 66th street ) So it will be interesting to see how they treat my boss and I ( both 25) we both know our food and wine, as we work in the industry, and I hope it is a great evening.

Lauren

[Bux]

Ageism at fine restaurants where the average diner is likely to be a mature individual, may be a real problem. I've kid a kid older than you are, so ageism is going to work for me, not against me. It's not that I can't relate, it's that I won't see it. I don't know that I ever really experienced it if only because when I was in my twenties, I didn't eat in many top restaurants and when I did, it was at the beneficence of an old individual. Nevertheless, what I've heard from others is that their meal at this class of restaurant, and particularly at Daniel, improved as the staff picked up on their interest in the food at hand and food in general.

I'd worry more about being a vegetarian in a restaurant with a French chef. Traditionally, vegetables have played a background role in haute cuisine and invariably they were cooked in a meat stock or finished off with a sauce derived from the fish or meat with which they were served. The average diner paying these prices wants meat, or at least fish. I see but one dish on Daniel's regular menu as posted on his web site which may be truly vegetarian. he does however have a three course vegetarian menu posted and it offers three choices for both the first course and the second course. The third course is dessert, of course and rarely a problem for vegetarians. He will also do a five course vegetarian tasting for the entire table. This interest in producing vegetable haute cuisine is something you're more likely to find here in the US, than in France. Passard at Arpège is the obvious exception. He claims that it's hard to find meat of a quality worth his attention and is much happier with the vegetable he gets. He may not revolutionize French cuisine, but he will have an effect on tastes.

[Bux]

Daniel as a restaurant possesses certain 4 star opulence and luxury. Service and food are always at the upper level but it may not possess the "edge" other restaurants may have from reaching (and sometimes failing) to deliver.

Pushing the envelope is what we've come to expect from four star restaurants as we've entered the 21st century. A chef who's not evolving may expect to lose some respect in the culinary community. At the same time, a chef whose restaurant "fails to deliver" is in danger of losing a star and no less so if it's because he tried to be clever and failed to deliver because his creativity was misdirected.

[jeunefilleparis]

Ageism at fine restaurants where the average diner is likely to be a mature individual, may be a real problem. I've kid a kid older than you are, so ageism is going to work for me, not against me. It's not that I can't relate, it's that I won't see it. I don't know that I ever really experienced it if only because when I was in my twenties, I didn't eat in many top restaurants and when I did, it was at the beneficence of an old individual. Nevertheless, what I've heard from others is that their meal at this class of restaurant, and particularly at Daniel, improved as the staff picked up on their interest in the food at hand and food in general.

I'd worry more about being a vegetarian in a restaurant with a French chef. Traditionally, vegetables have played a background role in haute cuisine and invariably they were cooked in a meat stock or finished off with a sauce derived from the fish or meat with which they were served. The average diner paying these prices wants meat, or at least fish. I see but one dish on Daniel's regular menu as posted on his web site which may be truly vegetarian. he does however have a three course vegetarian menu posted and it offers three choices for both the first course and the second course. The third course is dessert, of course and rarely a problem for vegetarians. He will also do a five course vegetarian tasting for the entire table. This interest in producing vegetable haute cuisine is something you're more likely to find here in the US, than in France. Passard at Arpège is the obvious exception. He claims that it's hard to find meat of a quality worth his attention and is much happier with the vegetable he gets. He may not revolutionize French cuisine, but he will have an effect on tastes.

Bux

When I required about vegetarian dining there they told me that they actually do it quite often and can even do vegan.

I would taste a meat stock in a second and raise bloody hell, and i honestly don t think that they would do it like that.....

i d really like to do Per se's veggie menu. Honestly, I dont miss meat or fish or any of it reallly. Living without goat cheese for a month was killing me that I kinda od'ed on it these past couple of weeks...

also since i have a sweet tooth its hard to avoid eggs in a lot of desserts, i just need to be careful of gelatin, and i was told by a friend of mine in the health industry that they make white sugar by crushing it in horse bones, its this a myth or the truth anyone know?

Lauren

[Bux]

When I mentioned Daniel's vegetarian menu, I meant it as a sign that they're committed to satisfying a vegetarian's appetite for haute cuisine. In fact you should check it out online to see what sort of dishes he offers. As for being a French chef, Boulud's been in this country for quite a while and used to feeding Americans. I would at this point, say he no longer has the mindset of a Frenchman, just that he's retained the high standards of that country's haute cuisine tradition.

I hadn't thought much about vegetarian desserts. I realize gelatin might be out of the question for most vegetarians, or for all true vegetarians, but I wonder if most pastry chefs would even think twice about using eggs. I don't reallly know how white sugar is refined, but that sounds peculiar. Sugar refineries are large processing plants. I can't picture horse's bones in the picture, but what do I know. Maybe bonemeal is invovled, but again I can't imagine how. People say strange things.

[PaulaJK]

JeuenefilleParis--The patrons ran the gamut of ages. The large

round table next to us appeared to be occupied by three generations

celebrating some occasion...the one on our other side was at

first occupied by a doyenne [who clearly was known to the

establshment,dining alone] and later, by a very chic Euro

appearing young couple. The room is elegant and once the

service settled, quite professional. we simply were underwhelmed

by our meal and since we were expectng much, rather

disappointed ...especially at the price point. This does not imply

that we felt we were being bankrupted! We have spent the

same $$ at Le Grand Vefour or Le Meurice and returned

home enthralled by our experience.. But, of course, experiences

vary and to each his own. That's what makes this board fun...

not any pretense of exposing the emperor to be sans clothes.

[DutchMuse]

I am a dedicated 'foodie' and have enjoyed a number of Michelin 3 star restaurants in France and other parts of Europe, and must say, I very much enjoy the food at Daniel, and would put it on a par (again, in terms of the food) with any *** restaurant. That's not true of the service, which is always outstanding, but not typically up to European 3 star standards. I'd say ADNY is the only restaurant in New York, IMHO, that provides that standard of service, but again IMHO, the food there has never risen to the level of Daniel.

I so enjoy the cuisine of Daniel that I have come to have them cater dinners in my home occasionally (have done 3 such dinners so far). The food is just as good as in the restaurant (two chefs come along with a captain and a waiter), and its terrific.

I think any restaurant can have an off night, but I must say, I've never been anything less than thrilled with the food there. But the service could go a notch or two higher. Then again, if it did, I think it might feel overly stuffy, and that wouldn't be good either.

[flinflon28]

Hi everyone!

I'm a new member and have taken the first week of memebership to read all your postings and getting a feel for the site. I'd like for some advice from all of you...My girlfriend and I are going to Daniel this aturday for her birthday. This will be our first time dining there. We've been to the 4 Seasons, Gotham and Montrachet before but for some reason I'm a little nervous about this one. We have enjoyed ourselves in all of the previous restaurants (even though we were the youngest people by 20 years at the 4 Seasons and the waiter treated us as such until he realized we weren't there to just drink water).

Does anyone have any tips or suggestions for the evening? I'm thinking of going the tasting menu route with wine pairings. My girlfriend has only started eating red meat again over the past few months (mostly my doing) but she eats fish and chicken and will have no problem with a bit of red meat. will this be a problem? I believe that the 5 course menu is the biggest option on weekends due to heavy volume. We are dining a 8:00. Any suggestions are appreciated!

Thanks.

[jsfein]

Had a recent first time dinner at Daniel. All around very good meal, but certainly not great. Service, presentation, room, etc. were all very impressive. No complaints there. The food, on the other hand, was one step below. Amuse nicely presented on a three tier dispaly, included a chick pea spread, a tiny fleck of fluke, and something else. For appetizers, we had smoked lobster and foie gras ($15-18 supplement for each). Both good, not great. Wife's duo of beef was tasty and fork tender. Nothing on the plate besides the meat. My veal chop special was also fork tender, but relatively tasteless. Big disappointment. Desserts were solid - chocolate souffle and caramel rice krispy (sp?). At $175 pp, had hoped for a more overall memorable meal. Will most certainly go elsewhere for next special occasion.

[Felonius]

I understand the ex-sommelier from Daniel is opening a shop in the far west village of just south of that.

Which sommelier Bux? Olivier Flosse (ex-sommelier at Cafe Boulud) left at the beginning of the year and I'm wondering if it's him or someone else from Daniel.

Edited January 23, 2005 by Felonius (log)

[Felonius]

I understand the ex-sommelier from Daniel is opening a shop in the far west village of just south of that.

Which sommelier Bux? Olivier Flosse (ex-sommelier at Cafe Boulud) left at the beginning of the year and I'm wondering if it's him or someone else from Daniel.

←

Jean Luc from Daniel is opening up the wine shop. It was posted several weeks ago in the Wednesday Section of the NYT.

←

Sorry to get off topic here, but when did Jean-Luc leave Daniel?

[Bux]

I understand the ex-sommelier from Daniel is opening a shop in the far west village of just south of that.

Which sommelier Bux? Olivier Flosse (ex-sommelier at Cafe Boulud) left at the beginning of the year and I'm wondering if it's him or someone else from Daniel.

←

Jean Luc from Daniel is opening up the wine shop. It was posted several weeks ago in the Wednesday Section of the NYT.

←

Sorry to get off topic here, but when did Jean-Luc leave Daniel?

←

I see your first question was answered. I believe Jean-Luc left at the beginning of the year. The new shop won't open for a while. When I asked if there was any concrete news of the place, I was told by one of the captains that Jean-Luc is taking some time off before opening the shop. As I read my own quote, I meant to say the far west village or just south of that.

On the topic of the Moore brothers' shop, I got a nice e-mail from Greg Moore promising me a kiddie corner in the new Manhattan shop, although if my grandson has a nose like his mom's, he'll be helping me pick out wines soon enough. Just past 13 months he got to celebrate with three grains of caviar and chase that by sticking his nose in a flute and letting the bubbles tickle his nose.

[Felonius]

I see your first question was answered. I believe Jean-Luc left at the beginning of the year. The new shop won't open for a while. When I asked if there was any concrete news of the place, I was told by one of the captains that Jean-Luc is taking some time off before opening the shop. As I read my own quote, I meant to say the far west village or just south of that.

On the topic of the Moore brothers' shop, I got a nice e-mail from Greg Moore promising me a kiddie corner in the new Manhattan shop, although if my grandson has a nose like his mom's, he'll be helping me pick out wines soon enough. Just past 13 months he got to celebrate with three grains of caviar and chase that by sticking his nose in a flute and letting the bubbles tickle his nose.

←

I promise this is my last off-topic coment, really....

Interesting that Jean-Luc and Olivier Flosse left Daniel and Cafe Boulud this month. Both are extremely talented and knowledgeable people who's passion for wine added something very special to Daniel's restaurants. I'll be curious to see who replaces them. Olivier is also moving on to a very interesting project in NYC, which I will discuss more on these pages when appropriate.

[Bux]

I've known Jean-Luc was leaving for some time. I imagine Daniel knew well before I did. Philippe is the new sommelier. I don't know too much about him and I see the restaurant's web site lists the executive chef, the chef de cuisine, the executive pastry chef and the bread baker, but not the sommelier. All that I really know is that he's from Alsace and that I'd consider Alsatian wines if he's got a recommendation. Actually, we drank American wines the other night simply because our Spanish host was in town and it seemed a reasonable gesture as long as there were interesting choices. We had enquired about a California Viognier and he recommended a Tablas Creek blend of Rhone grapes. We also choose a Zin with his advice. He seemed professional and personable. Daniel is one of those chefs who's demonstrated a knack for building a team in the front and back of the house. The more things change the more they stay the same, which is not to say they stay the same because I find the food evolves all the time. It is to say that there's a consistency and that the restaurant always seem larger than it's parts. Then again, Daniel seems to manage to find good people and the turnover may be slower than in other places in that league. It's also been a place where the food doesn't seem to suffer when Daniel is out of town and I think that's to his credit as chef more than a sign of his limits as a cook. I haven't been there as much since Alex Lee left and since my son-in-law left the kitchen and although I shared a concern I've heard voiced elsewhere about a possible change in quality, our meal last week was one of the best we've had with the possible exception of a few dishes our son-in-law has prepared for us. Jean François is doing very well in the kitchen.

I knew Olivier when he was at Daniel under Jean-Luc and then at Café Boulud, but not as well as I knew Jean-Luc. I'll be interested in hearing what he's up to. Steven Beckta was one of my favorite's at Café Boulud and later at Eleven Madison Park. For those that don't know, he's opened his own restaurant in Ottawa.

[oakapple]

In the latest Crain's, Bob Lape administers a dose of "Take that, Michelin!" with a four-star review of Daniel. (Note that this link will remain valid only this week, after which the next Crain's review replaces it.)

The sumptuous, complex Daniel experience makes it worthy of a spot in diners' memory banks of great meals and grand evenings. It's designed that way, and that's how it works--as sensory saturation.

The elegant, roomy 1920s Venetian Renaissance setting is attentively monitored by a seasoned troupe of service professionals. Their mission: making certain that everyone gets exactly what makes them happy, and then topping that, if possible.

Chef-owner Boulud and executive chef Jean François Bruel brilliantly march out their fare to the drumroll of the Boulud dictum: "Stick with the seasons, and you cannot go wrong." This means market-fresh seasonal ingredients--local where possible--addressed with simplicity, clarity and harmony.

[rich]

Lape also gave a four-star review to Chanterelle about a year ago.

Everybody just loves throwing stars around. I wish I had a few extra to cash-in.

Edited November 9, 2005 by rich (log)

[jasper]

Lape also gave a four-star review to Chanterelle about a year ago.

Everybody just loves throwing stars around. I wish I had a few extra to cash-in.

←

I wonder why Daniel only got 2 Michelin Stars? I think Daniel is a much better restaurant than Jean Georges and Ducasse. There must be alot of politics involved in this.

[oakapple]

I wonder why Daniel only got 2 Michelin Stars?  I think Daniel is a much better restaurant than Jean Georges and Ducasse.  There must be alot of politics involved in this.

←

This decision has been pretty well dissected on the Michelin stars thread. There's a perception that Daniel is too large a room, and turns the tables a bit too aggressively, judged by the standards of top-tier European restaurants. Some will say that that's either untrue, or doesn't matter, but it's the most likely reason why Daniel was left out. If anything, I'm more sympathetic to the argument that Le Bernardin should have received two stars, than that Daniel should have received three.

I don't see any consensus that Daniel is "much better" than Jean Georges or ADNY. eGullet's Fat Guy—who seems to have dined at this tier of NYC restaurants more than anybody who regularly posts here—said on the Michelin thread that he could quite readily see a distinction between the three-star level of ADNY/JG and Daniel. FG also believes that there is a clear gap between ADNY and any other NYC restaurant, with the possible exception of Per Se. I am not suggesting that one opinion—even a highly authoritative opinion—settles the matter, only that there's at least one informed person who thought the distinction was justified.

Edited November 9, 2005 by oakapple (log)

[Bux]

. . . .

I don't see any consensus that Daniel is "much better" than Jean Georges or ADNY.. . .

←

Obviously you don't eat with, or talk to, the same people jasper does.

Note that, to the best of my knowledge, I don't know jasper and have never dined with him. Further disclaimer: About a million years ago, or at least sometime before eG, I linked to Fat Guy's restaurant review site from my web site, with the notation that it was an excellent source of restaurant reviews. I added the disclaimer that we didn't share the same taste however. It's really hard, or perhaps pointless, to dispute an individual's subjective opinion. It appears that even credible and educated palates won't agree. Michelin is simply one of many in the mix. I'm partially on jasper's side on this one. I didn't find the cooking better at ADNY than at Daniel. I understand there's a sense of luxury ADNY affords. I think awarding three stars to a restaurant whose chef changed while the reviews were being written is a questionable departure for Michelin, but possilbe not without precedent and then again, they've announced that this guide is setting new standards. "New standards are a step in the right direction," some would say. "God help us" is the other perspective. Apparently, although I don't read Zagat Reviews, its style is growing on me.

[chefboy24]

I wonder why Daniel only got 2 Michelin Stars?  I think Daniel is a much better restaurant than Jean Georges and Ducasse.  There must be alot of politics involved in this.

←

This decision has been pretty well dissected on the Michelin stars thread. There's a perception that Daniel is too large a room, and turns the tables a bit too aggressively, judged by the standards of top-tier European restaurants. Some will say that that's either untrue, or doesn't matter, but it's the most likely reason why Daniel was left out. If anything, I'm more sympathetic to the argument that Le Bernardin should have received two stars, than that Daniel should have received three.

I don't see any consensus that Daniel is "much better" than Jean Georges or ADNY. eGullet's Fat Guy—who seems to have dined at this tier of NYC restaurants more than anybody who regularly posts here—said on the Michelin thread that he could quite readily see a distinction between the three-star level of ADNY/JG and Daniel. FG also believes that there is a clear gap between ADNY and any other NYC restaurant, with the possible exception of Per Se. I am not suggesting that one opinion—even a highly authoritative opinion—settles the matter, only that there's at least one informed person who thought the distinction was justified.

←

*insert all-you-need-to-know qualifier of my qualifications here*

moving on.

this talk of "3 star level"......sort of ellusive huh? to me, a 3 star michelin restaurant is like falling in love. once you get there, you're like.......oh, this is what everyones talking about, THIS IS IT.

an evening at per se and an evening at ADNY serve very different food and have completely different service. they are both fantastic. i've trailed in both kitchens and eaten at both restaurants. to compare the 2 is to compare having great champagne or having great bordeaux. some people will prefer one over the other, but both are undenyably awesome.

know what im saying?

[Monica Bhide]

I was at Daniel last week and I have to say that I had one of the best meals of my life. From the service to the food to the ambiance... everything was perfect. Everyone has a dream place that they have always wanted to go to and this one was mine. I had a great time. Thanks to the Chef and staff for the awesome work that they are doing!

[Marlene]

I have to agree Monica. I had a meal at Daniel last year and it was among the best I've had. I haven't had a chance to visit ADNY, but that's on my list the next time I get to NY for comparision purposes.

I couldn't have been treated better at Daniel and I had a great table and the food was just amazing. They even accomodated the pace for my need to take the occassional smoke break outside.

[Monica Bhide]

There was something about being there.. it was almost magical. I dont say that lightly. I have eaten at many places, met many chefs and yet I felt a bit like I had walked into a dreamscape. From sipping lovely champagne while you wait for the table to the waitstaff performing ballet like movements when they serve you.. it was like a dream.. just beautiful.