Celebrating Israel's Independence

[Gifted Gourmet]

thanks for the recommendation--i will look for it. does it also have recipes?

Let me offer you this from Amazon on this book which won Claudia Roden prizes from the literary world in her field:

Roden's book

Numerous recipes for you to read, savor, and enjoy .... and, if you are of a mind to do so, experiment with!

a brief excerpt of the review, but which answers your question more succinctly,

"The book's 800 recipes reflect many cultures and regions of the world, from the Jewish quarter of Cairo where Roden spent her childhood to the kitchens of Europe, Asia and the Americas. Both Ashkenazi and Sepharidic cooking are well represented here: hallah bread, bagels, blintzes and kugels give way to tabbouleh, falafel and succulent lamb with prunes, which are, in turn, succeeded by such fare as Ftut (Yemeni wedding soup) and Kahk (savoury bracelets)."

Edited May 1, 2004 by Gifted Gourmet (log)

[mongo_jones]

I dont think relative population sizes pre and post modern diaspora has a hell of a lot to do with it. Sure, the immigrants bring diversity, but they don't completely overwhelm the indigenous culture that already exists. Its probably one of the oldest indigenous cultures on the planet -- going back 3000 years. An influx of six million people (and yes, I agree with you, its a lot) over a 60 year span isn't going to just wipe it out like shaking an Etch-a-sketch.

i didn't mean to imply that i think it wipes out the indigenous culture or that there "outside" contact pre-1948 is irrelevant--just noting that the biggest "outside" influence by far on modern israeli food is that of the incoming 6 million brand new israelis. babar (the first mughal emperor) in contrast showed up with only 12,000 cavalry and whined incessantly about the melons of central asia. foolish man, given the presence of mangoes.

[mongo_jones]

thanks for the recommendation--i will look for it. does it also have recipes?

Let me offer you this from Amazon on this book which won Claudia Roden prizes from the literary world in her field:

Roden's book

Numerous recipes for you to read, savor, and enjoy .... and, if you are of a mind to do so, experiment with!

an brief excerpt of the review, but which answers your question more succinctly,

"The book's 800 recipes reflect many cultures and regions of the world, from the Jewish quarter of Cairo where Roden spent her childhood to the kitchens of Europe, Asia and the Americas. Both Ashkenazi and Sepharidic cooking are well represented here: hallah bread, bagels, blintzes and kugels give way to tabbouleh, falafel and succulent lamb with prunes, which are, in turn, succeeded by such fare as Ftut (Yemeni wedding soup) and Kahk (savoury bracelets)."

since i'm not in the u.k i did a search on amazon u.s.a and found this instead:

The Book of Jewish Food : An Odyssey from Samarkand to New York

same book? and if so, do american publishers think their public is so narcissistic that they'll only buy the book if the journey ends in new york and not vilna? and if so, are they right? or is the american title the original? the american hardcover is dated 1996 and the u.k paperpack 1999, but no telling when the u.k hardcover came out.

[Gifted Gourmet]

To find more specifics on Israeli cuisine, you might even think about reading Joan Nathan's book:Israeli cuisine with greater explanations

"Modern Israel is one of the world's great culinary melting pots, and Nathan (author of the highly successful PBS series and cookbook Jewish Cooking in America) does it justice in this exceptional and comprehensive examination of its diverse cultural lineage. Israeli flavors include those of the Middle East like Classic Israeli Eggplant Dip, new inventions such as Israeli Revisionist Haroset and imported traditions like Judith Tihany's Transylvanian Green Bean Soup. Nathan collects recipes from both ordinary Israelis including 97-year-old Shoshana Kleiner, whose instruction for her Fourth Aliyah Vegetable Soup is "Cook until cooked!" and popular restaurants, such as Jerusalem's Eucalyptus."

Edited May 1, 2004 by Gifted Gourmet (log)

[Pan]

there's like 5 jews left in india now.

A few thousand in Bombay but almost none left in Cochin.

But back to food.

[Gifted Gourmet]

there's like 5 jews left in india now.

A few thousand in Bombay but almost none left in Cochin.

But back to food.

Jews and their foods are so intimately intertwined, it is often difficult to speak of one without the other ... which is what I see in this thread ...

[Swisskaese]

You are all getting carried away. We (Israelis) are not so caught up in what is purely Israeli or not. Israelis are from all cultures and all walks of life and we basically love food from all of those cultures. You will find Sephardi Jews that love gefilte fish and Ashkenazi's that love Sabich. We love(d) going to Umm al Fachum, Abu Gosh and Dalyat al Karmel for amazing Israeli Arab food that is prepared with love.

Let's stop with the labelling and talk about what foods we like that happen to be in Israel. Who cares if they aren't indiginous to the country, we have wonderful produce that ultimately creates great tasting food, full stop. I for one am very happy that we have some many different cultures here. I never run out of cooking ideas.

What you are doing is getting into political banter and I have to live with it and other horrendous things here everyday. I joined eGullet so that I could escape from the sadness and frustration of what is happening in my country. Please let's not start it here!

Michal (aka Swisskaese)

[mongo_jones]

hi michal,

just trying to understand israeli food culture/identity to some extent. you'll be glad to know that my initial curiosity has been satisfied--now it is on to the books.

regards,

mongo

[Gifted Gourmet]

Let's stop with the labelling and talk about what foods we like that happen to be in Israel. Who cares if they aren't indiginous to the country, we have wonderful produce that ultimately creates great tasting food, full stop. I for one am very happy that we have some many different cultures here. I never run out of cooking ideas.

Michal,

I think it important to delve deeper in to some of the "backstory" about how Israeli foods have tapped into such a global variety of sources, hence the lengthy descriptions and references.

And it gives me a golden opportunity to encourage people to read Claudia Roden's marvelously interesting writing and her recipe collections ...

Nothing political about delicious food, no matter what the origin! Thanks for giving us a sense of what works for Israelis who are, sadly, caught up in this entire balagan.

[marlena spieler]

Michal,

Happy Yom Ha'atmaut! I agree with you so much about there being much delicious food in Israel to celebrate.

When I first went to Israel good food was considered too bourgeouis, decadent, it was all about feeding the masses and getting back to work. idealism and good food didn't seem to match.

the last time i was there people i knew were complaining about lack of idealism, but oh, the food was great!

So much good food in Israel! I am always trying to promote it but magazines tend to shy away because of the political situation. aren't they sad.

my project that i have simmering next to my heart for when there is god willing the hope of peace, is a foodie press trip, to share with writers/broadcasters the fabulous food and wonderfully enthusiastic chefs/producers/foodies of Israel.

some of my faves foodwise: the whole malkot ha felafel thing: yum. also they do a grapefruit and arak cocktail which is mighty fine, or at least they did awhile back.

warm soft fluffy and light pita. foul and houmous simmered in a big copper pot and eaten by both jews and arabs (again, maybe in these tense times no?). Israeli pickles, and israeli feta which is neck to neck with bulgarian and greece for the best in the world.

israeli grilled foie gras makes me cry, sooooo good. the spicy salads and tahina-y dishes, the breakfasts, its worth going to israel for the breakfasts alone.

olive oil!

i like sabich.

i love the markets.

zchug! and hasn't zchug become so trendy in europe/usa/australia. ditto for za-atar.

borekas, and brik. rumanian pickles. shwarma. tel aviv style felafel with the salads, all of the alluring salads.......fried eggplant......

smoked fish and smoked goose.

freshly squeezed juices, and lamajoun.

soufganiyot at chanuka. olives! cucumbers and tomatoes! yogurt and shoumenet.

as soon as i can get some support from appropriate agencies, I shall do what I can to organize a foodie press trip to israel.

in the meantime,

happy yom ha atzma ut

marlena

[Jason Perlow]

also they do a grapefruit and arak cocktail which is mighty fine, or at least they did awhile back.

Do you have the recipe/formula for this one?

[Gifted Gourmet]

as soon as i can get some support from appropriate agencies, I shall do what I can to organize a foodie press trip to israel.

and perhaps meet with Daniel Rogov? That would be incredible on many levels!

[Swisskaese]

That is a fabulous idea. Let me know if I can help you. My husband-to-be is well connected.

[helenas]

i emailed the link to this thread to Daniel; follows the response printed with his permission:

"Helena, Hi…

After receiving your e-mail with the link to the discussion about Israeli foods on eGullet, I tried responding there but thanks perhaps to my relative computer clumsiness my response was gobbled up by the gremlins of cyberspace. I am thus sending this response to you with the request that you post it on the appropriate thread.

Over the years I have been charged with being right and wrong quite a few times but I have to admit that this is the first time I have been accused of having a political agenda to my culinary writing. Fair enough, for the critic who is not open to criticism is a poor critic indeed. That all human acts, including those in the artistic and intellectual realms, have political ramifications has been well demonstrated but in my own defense, my only specific culinary and oenological agendas as I write are social, historical, ethnic, psychological, cultural and philosophical.

I think anyone having fully read my little article (referred to above at http://www.stratsplace.com/rogov/israel/ethnic_input.htm ) would have seen that my argument was not against the presence of people (Hebrews, Caananites, Philistines, and later Arabs and Jews) over the last 5,000 years. The argument was to several points:

(a) Precisely because the cooking styles of the Middle-East and Mediterranean Basin have been present in Israel for the last 5,000 years, they are Middle-Eastern and Mediterranean and not specifically Israeli.

(b) That in modern times the major inputs to the Israeli culinary repertoire have been from Arab lands and Mediterranean lands as well as from the immigrants who have come to the country from more than 80 nations, those as widely dispersed as Afghanistan, Russia, the United States, Argentina, Morocco, Spain, South Africa …. and that those different culinary styles have not intermarried very much at all. That, by the way, is an aspect I see as positive rather than negative, reflecting the maintenance of and pride in individual ethnicity.

© There are indeed Israeli dishes, and some of them (e.g. the goose liver in tchina sauce of chef Chaim Cohen) are exquisite. Individual dishes or even a collection of individual dishes do not, however, make a cuisine. They make a national repertoire in the building but not the coherent style required to define a true regional or national cuisine.

(d) In general, national or regional cuisines take many hundreds of years to develop. Often what we label a cuisine in everyday language is in fact nothing more than a localized cooking style and not full or coherent enough to make it a true cuisine. Some food historians claim that there are only three true cuisines in the world – Chinese, French and Italian, all others having evolved from those. Others go even further stating that there are only Chinese and Italian, the French having derived their own kitchen from that of the Italians. Personally, I would list a few more, but no matter how generous I might be, and no matter how much I thrive on dining on the dishes available throughout Israel, I cannot add my own little country to that list of “certified cuisines”

I do not know the rules of eGullet, so courtesy dictates that I will not SPAM the site with links to my own. Let it be said only that I do have an internet site largely devoted to the history of dining and foods of Israel, that I am the restaurant and wine critic of Israel’s HaAretz newspaper as well as for the Israeli edition of the International Herald Tribune. Should anybody want references beyond that, I can be contacted by email at drogov@cheerful.com and will respond with pleasure to all who care to take up a dialogue.

Best wishes,

Daniel Rogov"

Edited May 1, 2004 by helenas (log)

[Jason Perlow]

Daniel, if you are reading along, we appreciate your input.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Daniel, if you are reading along, we appreciate your input.

Now we have the emmes on what this topic was initially seeking out .. and from the very most authentic and preeminent authority on Israeli cuisine!

To Jason's thank you, please allow me to add my appreciation as well, Mr. Rogov, on the clarity your article link offers us here!! I often read your articles in Ha'aretz ... with no small amount of pleasure!

Edited May 1, 2004 by Gifted Gourmet (log)

[Swisskaese]

I am very happy that Daniel Rogov is participating in this thread. He is definitely the expert in Israeli cuisine. He has never steered me wrong.

[helenas]

To Jason's thank you please allow me to add my appreciation as well, Mr. Rogov, on the clarity your article link offers us here!!

Speaking of clarity:

i initially posted the link to this article (see page 2 of the thread) to which Jason reaction was "...his assertation is bogus...". This was the reason for me to contact Daniel in the first place as i didn't feel it's ok for him not to be able to reply...

Helena

[FoodieRD]

Great topic for my first post. I'm in charge of the "typical Israeli breakfast" portion of my kid's Hebrew school's imaginary trip to Israel next week- any suggestions?

[Gifted Gourmet]

Great topic for my first post.  I'm in charge of the "typical Israeli breakfast" portion of my kid's Hebrew school's imaginary trip to Israel next week- any suggestions?

Rogov redux .. Israeli breakfasts

[Jason Perlow]

Great topic for my first post.  I'm in charge of the "typical Israeli breakfast" portion of my kid's Hebrew school's imaginary trip to Israel next week- any suggestions?

Rogov redux .. Israeli breakfasts

I had the opportunity to try several breakfasts at various Kibbutzes and Moshav when I last visited, and yes they do put out a heck of a spread -- the Israelis take their breakfasts VERY seriously, especially the people working in these communities and doing heavy manual labor and farming, because it has to be the most important meal of their day. Also like the Europeans the Israelis often don't eat dinner until later in the evening, and typically only eat a light lunch.

[FoodieRD]

Thanks for the great info- I'll let you know how my breakfast goes...

[Gifted Gourmet]

my kid's Hebrew school's imaginary trip to Israel next week-

Assuming that it is the trip to Israel which is "imaginary" and the food you'll bring is more realia, so to speak, might you take a snapshot or two?

I know, I know: manage the food, the kids, and BTW, do take pictures .... a lotta activity for one Mom!

[Daniel Rogov]

Hello to All.....

It took me a bit of time to figure out that registration was a prerequisite to posting but register I did. I've peeked at Jason's forum from time to time and often found interesting discussions going here. If there are questions that I can answer, don't hesitate to post them. I won't promise to look in every day but if you notify me by email that questions have been posted and give me the appropriate URL, I'll get to them as quickly as possible. Best email for me is drogov@cheerful.com

(Personally, I like to think of myself as a curmudeon so the cheeful.com address is merely a quirk of fate)

I do thank several for the warm words of welcome.

Best wishes,

Daniel Rogov

[Jason Perlow]

Thanks for joining up with us, Daniel -- and feel free to contribute wherever it interests you!

I just want to say for the record -- My "bogus" comment was purely academic, and not out of disrespect -- I greatly admire and enjoy your work.