Masa and Bar Masa

[jogoode]

What you're saying is probably correct - but my husband and I tend to drink pretty much the same stuff no matter where we dine.  A few cocktails - some middle of the road wine/champagne (perhaps $200 worth altogether).  But dinner for 2 at ADNY was $750 - and $500 for 2 at Per Se.  So we'd be talking about more than $1000 at Masa.  I'm sure it's better than Tojo's in Vancouver - but not 4 times better.  Robyn

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Let's not do this. You can get sushi dinner from a convenience store for $10; you can spent $300 on dinner at any of the big sushi places. Are they 30 times better? Can you possibly quantify intrinsic worth?

Masa is expensive. The question is are you willing to spend that much on what Masa is serving. Mr. Ruhlman is -- he says it is one of his favorite restaurants in NY. If you are willing to spend over $300 a person at ADNY, you can't claim that Masa's prices are outrageous. (Not that you necessarily are claiming that, Robyn , and I'm not trying to single you out.)

The question is, Is Masa succeeding at serving what it claims to serve: an experience so good that it warrants the high cost? Unless you've gone multiple times, as the TONY author has or as Mr. Ruhlman has (I assume), it's hard to judge. That's why there are few reliable arbiters of this matter.

[bpearis]

The question is, Is Masa succeeding at serving what it claims to serve: an experience so good that it warrants the high cost? Unless you've gone multiple times, as the TONY author has or as Mr. Ruhlman has (I assume), it's hard to judge. That's why there are few reliable arbiters of this matter.

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Somehow I have to imagine Mr. Ruhlman, like Amanda Hesser and Anthony Bourdain, are receiving a somewhat different experience than what a person like myself would experience. For those priviged as such, I'm sure it is worth it.

[milla]

Let's not do this. You can get sushi dinner from a convenience store for $10; you can spent $300 on dinner at any of the big sushi places. Are they 30 times better? Can you possibly quantify intrinsic worth?

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Yes. Without question.

[Pan]

Let's not do this. You can get sushi dinner from a convenience store for $10; you can spent $300 on dinner at any of the big sushi places. Are they 30 times better? Can you possibly quantify intrinsic worth?

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Yes. Without question.

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I agree. Many people find it very possible to quantify worth on a numbered scale. Of course, like all other matters of taste and opinion - as opposed to hard, scientifically provable facts - such a scale will always represent that person's subjective ratings.

[milla]

Let's not do this. You can get sushi dinner from a convenience store for $10; you can spent $300 on dinner at any of the big sushi places. Are they 30 times better? Can you possibly quantify intrinsic worth?

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Yes. Without question.

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I agree. Many people find it very possible to quantify worth on a numbered scale. Of course, like all other matters of taste and opinion - as opposed to hard, scientifically provable facts - such a scale will always represent that person's subjective ratings.

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It is all subjective with sushi, that is for sure. My feeling is that you can get to a super high level of quality and care that is fairly accessable in price and then there is small group of sushi guys who pay onto a next level that is hard to imagine. And it shows without question in the quality of fish. There is no comparison. That simply is the price difference of Kurumazushi (my favorite by a wide margin, personal preference ), Masa and Urasawa in Los Angeles from the rest. One can argue whether you get it or you don't but that isn't fair. But I will bet if you see the o-toro from your very good corner sushi place and the piece from Kuruma it will all make sense. If you pay $190 a pound for O-toro wholesale as they do at the above three places, there is no comparison.

[Michael Ruhlman]

In response to above questions, I've eaten at Masa once, and no I didn't pay for it. Or let's just say I paid for it afterward, though it was worth seeing Tony reduced to a gelatinous blob of saliva and invective as Eric and I dumped him into a taxi.

Tony, blessedly generously picked up the tab, 1300 (he peeled them off the biggest wad of c-notes i've ever seen, smirking all the while at his largess). I'd gone fully expecting to pay. But I must say I was so euphoric I'd have happily given over my next born to Mr. Takayama at the time.

I spent a few days with Masa with recently watching him work. He's a craftsman and an artist, and a gentleman. Part of the thrill for me is watching the man work. Indeed, he himself noted that he couldn't charge what he does if he just sent the food to a table. (Only sit at the bar, if you do go.) I was soooooo tempted to put away my notebook and ask for a spot at the bar, but I'm saving that splurge for when I can bring my wife.

It's worth a grand to me, but it's part of what I do (and what I care about) so it's more easily justified.

Let's be honest here. Isn't all this griping about the prices, and how can it be worth it, and suckers born every minute, really an expression of our being pissed off that we can't afford it?

I'm reminded of the Seinfeld stand-up moment when, impersonating a stewardess closing off the first-class cabin, sharply snapping closed the curtain, Seinfeld takes a last disdainful look at all the people in coach and says, "You should have worked harder." Snap.

I'm reminded of that every time I fly, and I'm ok with it. No, I am.

[Todd36]

Let's be honest here. Isn't all this griping about the prices, and how can it be worth it, and suckers born every  minute, really an expression of our being pissed off that we can't afford it?

I'm reminded of the Seinfeld stand-up moment when, impersonating a stewardess closing off the first-class cabin, sharply snapping closed the curtain, Seinfeld takes a last disdainful look at all the people in coach and says, "You should have worked harder."  Snap.

I'm reminded of that every time I fly, and I'm ok with it.  No, I am.

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I've had the sushi twice at Bar Masa. Any number of places of NYC serve sushi as good or better, for half the price. Even Masa knows the Bar is overpriced, the bartender told me they had recently cut $20 off the price of the sushi assortment. This isn't a question of not being able to afford to go to Masa. I spent about $900 on dinner last month at ADNY. This is a question about whether Masa is serving something better than competing, cheaper places. In the case of Bar Masa, it is clearly overpriced as compared to other places on NYC that offer better food for less money. I don't know about Masa itself. I have been told by Japanese food professionals that there are limits as to what ingredients you can buy, and that Masa can't be buying things that are noticably better than several other Japanese places in town, the stuff just doesn't exist. According to that TONY article, Masa serves ample Gold Leaf and Cavier, along with White Truffle. The last two are not exactly classic Japanese ingredents and may explain where some of the money goes. For example, any one of a number of places serves Mastake mushrooms, from various countries.

[slkinsey]

If we would like to have a more extensive discussion of restaurant pricing beyong the context of Masa, someone should probably start a new thread. Certainly there is much to be said on that subject.

For the time being, I will offer this one thought: $500 for a restaurant dinner means different things to different people.

To me, and for many of us here I gather, this would represent a significant expenditure. I would go into the restaurant expecting a once-in-a-lifetime peak-experience kind of meal in exchange for my once-in-a-lifetime restaurant meal expenditure. For other people, five hundred dollars for a restaurant meal just doesn't mean that much to them. And make no mistake, there are a lot more of these people around than you might think, and they're all a short Learjet ride away from places like Masa and ADNY. For these people, the gustatory return they expect on their $500 investment isn't the same. Indeed, they may not expect a substantial difference between a $500 meal and a $200 meal. They don't need to have a life-changing culinary experience for their five hundred bucks.

This is the reason why people like me are well advised to choose carefully when going to places like ADNY, because some of the dishes are life-changing and some are just really, really good -- and I'm only going to feel like I got my money's worth if I order the former. At a restaurant like Masa, fundamentally all they serve is great quality fish and rice. It's going to be hard for someone like me to justify paying five hundred bucks for a meal at Masa when I could get one at a marginally lower level for half the price. No one seems to be saying that Masa is twice as good as the competition, and with this kind of elemental food it's harder to tell the difference between, e.g., Sushi Yasuda and Masa as it is between, e.g., Landmarc and ADNY. But for someone who drops that kind of money without feeling pain, or for someone who has other motivations (professional, personal) to unflinchingly drop that kind of money on a meal on a semi-regular basis... it's probably worth it.

[Todd36]

I can't relate to the "That much just for sushi!" logic. It's a subjective matter, yes, but I leave my favorite sushi bar happier than when I spend comparable amounts on meals at the French and Italian big boys.

And to bring out a whole other bag of worms, for all this talk about high priced toro, it should be said that fish is only part of the equation. I've gone to both Kuruma and Yasuda, but prefer Yasuda, because I prefer the chef's rice. I'm not interested in going to Masa -- though Ruhlman's right, if I could afford it I'd be plenty interested in going there and everywhere. For my money, I avoid the pricier cuts of fish at my sushi bar, and I'm definitely not interested in having truffles, foie gras, and caviar anywhere near my sushi.

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The sushi they serve at the Bar, I've had it twice, is above average, but it's also something like $70 for I think 8 pieces. At best, it's equal in qualtity to a $35 sushi deluxe at one of the better places in town. And the quality of service in the bar is poor. I suspect the NYT split 3/4 star rating was due to poor service by the staff, if the people working in the bar are similar to the people working in the main place. My other point is that something is wrong with Masa if the food in poor and overprices in Bar Masa. A counterexpample is Jean George and Nougatine. I've eaten in both. Clearly, the $20.04 lunch special at Nougatine is not as good as the prix fix in the main dining room. On the other hand, it's quite good for $20.04. Nothing wrong with having a second room with smaller portions and less fancy food, priced accordingly. I never feel ripped off at Nougatine. Is it perfect? No, but its prices are reasonable for what it is and it does not detract from the main dinign room. To me, Bar Masa detracts from Masa: it's overpriced and not good.

With respect to $190 a pound fish, I'm not so sure that is really expensive. That's 16 ounces. I bet the sushi at a high end place has at most .5 ounce of firsh per piece. Even with triming, I bet they get 25 pieces of sushi from that $190 pound of fish. That would make their fish cost less than $10 per piece, and I doubt you get that many pieces of super grade tuna at Masa in that $300 dinner.

If I can find 2-3 other crazy people, we can do dinners at Masa, Kuruma and Sugiyama. If we stick to cheaper sake, should cost less than $1000 a piece for all three. Then we can write an article and compare!!!!

[SobaAddict70]

Except that at Sugiyama, sushi and sashimi are part of the scene instead of being the scene.

Speaking of Sugiyama, perhaps it's time for another visit. It's only been what, three years...for me anyway.

Soba

[Todd36]

Except that at Sugiyama, sushi and sashimi are part of the scene instead of being the scene.

Soba

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Yes. I included it on the theory that Masa lies somewhere between Kuruma (which does not offer cooked food) and Sugiyama (which is mostly cooked food). You really need to compare all three to be fair to Masa, by comparing Masa to a top sushi place and a top cooked food place.

I've always wanted to get Mr. Sugiyama to make sushi for me.....

[jogoode]

I've always wanted to get Mr. Sugiyama to make sushi for me.....

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But if he's not a sushi chef...

[phaelon56]

If we would like to have a more extensive discussion of restaurant pricing beyong the context of Masa, someone should probably start a new thread.  Certainly there is much to be said on that subject.

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I agree. Perhaps we can discuss it on this thread

The price of dinner diminishing returns thread, Is it really worth THAT much?

[Todd36]

I've always wanted to get Mr. Sugiyama to make sushi for me.....

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But if he's not a sushi chef...

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He makes a piece or two of damn good sushi as part of the dinner set. More to the point, I know he can make sushi if he wants to....(I have an inside source). He's a general chef, which is the same thing I think Masa is.

I don't want to start a new thread, but Mr. Sugiyama I think received most of his training at a very famous hotel kitchen, where they served all sorts of fancy stuff. The man who owns Donguri (recently reviewed in the NYT) trained in the same kitchen, although I understand their seniority level was different. I don't know where Masa trained. There are a finite number of very high end Japanese places, even in Japan, and it seems the top chefs trained at a small number of places

[Michael Ruhlman]

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I have no doubt you find the place and the chef worth the money. However, I think you are wrong in saying that the people that are sniping at their price point are just "pissed off" because they can't afford it. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford a dinner like that on a regular basis if I wanted to. I choose not to. $1000 on a dinner for two at a Japanese restaurant is foolish to me. Watch the place close it's doors within the next two years.

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[robyn]

I think the initial premise of this thread (which got tacked onto another thread) is that the restaurant was having problems - perhaps due to cost.

Now I don't hold myself out as a sushi/sashimi expert - but I've eaten at high end places before in Hawaii and on the west coast. And in these places - and presumably Masa too - a large % of the fish is imported from Japan (although there are usually some local delicacies too). It's expensive stuff - but it's probably more expensive in New York than Hawaii or the west coast because shipping costs are higher. And because running a restaurant costs more too.

Granted there are people who can travel all over to eat - and I guess I'm one of them (although I'm not in the "let's take the jet to Paris tonight for dinner" class). But whereas Japanese food of all kinds is at or near the top of my list when I head to Hawaii or the west coast - it's near the bottom of my radar screen on a trip to New York (simply because there are lots of New York types of food/restaurants that seem more "New York"). And perhaps I'm not alone. And - if Masa has a problem - that could be the cause. That NYC doesn't have enough residents to keep a high end restaurant like this going - and it's not high on the list of tourist food destinations in New York.

For those of you who've been there - one thing I've noticed in higher end places (not only Japanese places but even our local Ruth's Chris - which attracts a golf crowd) is there are usually a large number of Japanese tourists or business people dining there. Is that true in Masa? If not - that's probably a bad sign. I note that when I was in New York a while back - there were large tables of Japanese tourists or business people (don't know which - but probably the latter) at places like Davidburke & Donatella. If Masa isn't attracting this business - then I think it has a fair chance of running into problems. Robyn

[Pan]

I don't think we've had any posts from Japanese residents or frequent visitors to New York in this thread yet. It would be interesting to get their takes on the quality and expense of Masa.

[jogoode]

On my part - I'd probably rather use a thousand bucks to fly to Toyko to eat Japanese food than eat at Masa.  Robyn

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I thought I'd bring this up again, Robyn, because I glanced for a second time at the TONY article and noticed a box at the bottom that noted that for the price of the author's Masa meal, one could fly to Tokyo or purchase an old Cadillac, or something like that.

I've always wanted to get Mr. Sugiyama to make sushi for me.....

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But if he's not a sushi chef...

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He makes a piece or two of damn good sushi as part of the dinner set. More to the point, I know he can make sushi if he wants to....(I have an inside source). He's a general chef, which is the same thing I think Masa is.

I don't want to start a new thread, but Mr. Sugiyama I think received most of his training at a very famous hotel kitchen, where they served all sorts of fancy stuff. The man who owns Donguri (recently reviewed in the NYT) trained in the same kitchen, although I understand their seniority level was different. I don't know where Masa trained. There are a finite number of very high end Japanese places, even in Japan, and it seems the top chefs trained at a small number of places

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Thank for this info, Todd36 -- really interesting stuff!

[milla]

For those of you who've been there - one thing I've noticed in higher end places (not only Japanese places but even our local Ruth's Chris - which attracts a golf crowd) is there are usually a large number of Japanese tourists or business people dining there.  Is that true in Masa?  If not - that's probably a bad sign.  I note that when I was in New York a while back - there were large tables of Japanese tourists or business people (don't know which - but probably the latter) at places like Davidburke & Donatella.  If Masa isn't attracting this business - then I think it has a fair chance of running into problems.  Robyn

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Completely agree. I wonder if Masa is attracting the tourist or the heavy in the know Japanese. All my info before my fist visit to Kuruma was from an older, food sophisticated Japanese group who said the fish is the best, period. The mantra is "Yasuda for rice, but Kuruma for fish."

[Todd36]

And Todd36, have you any experience judging frozen tuna against fresh? As I understand it, the high-tech freezing doesn't noticably affect quality, when the freezing and defrosting are done right. So how much does it matter that tuna is frozen? I've seen a sushi chef freeze a giant clam to -83 degrees and bring it back to life by defrosting it!

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It's hard to know, because places never say their tuna is frozen, while they do say so when it is fresh. Some of the better tuna I've had was identified as fresh.

There is a New York Times article from April 8, 2004 on the subject, and I've quoted bits below:

Naomichi Yasuda, the owner of Sushi Yasuda, the acclaimed sushi restaurant in New York City, said he imported fresh tuna but froze it himself, selling it for $10 a piece.

"American customers don't want to hear that something is out of season" he said with a shrug. "People want toro every day."

But Shin Tsujimura, the sushi chef at Nobu, closer to Wall Street, said he froze his own tuna. "Even I cannot tell the difference between fresh and frozen in a blind test," he said.

Even Masa Takayama, whose sushi temple Masa, in the Time Warner Center, charges a minimum of $300 to worship, said he used frozen tuna when fresh is unavailable.

Many sushi bars, in Japan and elsewhere, routinely use frozen fish when fresh is unavailable or more expensive than the market will bear.

"In Japan," Mr. Kawauchi said, "50 percent of the sushi and sashimi is frozen. Only my American customers are so concerned with fresh fish."

Back to Todd. Based on that, I'd say frozen fish is rather common in even high end sushi places. Any fresh water fish, which includes salmon, must be frozen, becuase of parsite problems. And note that Masa, the subject of this thread, uses frozen fish.

Tokyo is the global wholesale market for high end sushi fish. If someone catches a nice tuna in US waters, its going to wind up on a plane to Tokyo, to get the best price at auction. My guess is that no matter where it is caught, any fresh tuna you see in the US is at least 7 days out of water, probably longer.

There is also the question of what is "fresh." With Chicken for exampe, US regs say you can keep the bird very cold and still call it fresh.

"The term fresh on a poultry label refers to any raw poultry product that has never been below 26 °F. Raw poultry held at 0 °F or below must be labeled frozen or previously frozen. No specific labeling is required on raw poultry stored at temperatures between 0-25 °F."

The above quote is from the USDA site. My guess is that even "fresh" tuna has been kept quite cold, probably somewhat below freezing.

Edited December 6, 2004 by jogoode (log)

[Michael Ruhlman]

Masa uses high tech freezers kept at about -87 F. for toro. He says there's not a huge difference. In my experience high fat food freeze very well. He also freezes some of the fugu skin so that it's easier to julienne.

[Jinmyo]

I believe it is illegal, at least in most parts of the U.S., to serve raw fish that has not first been flash frozen.

It's all frozen fish, folks.

[milla]

I believe it is illegal, at least in most parts of the U.S., to serve raw fish that has not first been flash frozen.

It's all frozen fish, folks.

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Alot of fish is imported into the US fresh. Whether the restaurant chooses to cook it or serve it raw is another matter.

[slkinsey]

I believe it is illegal, at least in most parts of the U.S., to serve raw fish that has not first been flash frozen.

It's all frozen fish, folks.

A lot of fish is imported into the US fresh. Whether the restaurant chooses to cook it or serve it raw is another matter.

I don't think it's that simple. Whether something looks fresh, tastes fresh and can be called fresh depends on a great many things... and never having being frozen is not necessarily among them.

In any event, we are straying too far from discussion that is relevant to Masa. If we would like to continue to discuss the use of frozen fish for sushi, etc. there is a thread referenced above that would be more appropriate.

[Todd36]

In any event, we are straying too far from discussion that is relevant to Masa.  If we would like to continue to discuss the use of frozen fish for sushi, etc. there is a thread referenced above that would be more appropriate.

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I can't find the other thread. Last night, as I was eating sushi on Avenue A.....I dawned on both me and my Japanese dining friend that any kind roe, that means salmon roe etc is by definition a seasonal product and will almost always be frozen, even at a place like Masa. Fish only spawn a short time of the year, as far as I know. Between the roe, toro, and fresh water fish, plus seasonal types of yellowtail, I bet much of the fish at Masa is frozen and stored for a while, something they are not anxious to tell you.

By the way, that article I quoted from was about Tuna deep frozen at -87C, so I wonder if that guy in NJ is the supplier to Masa.....