Has Jean-Georges Vongerichten Jumped the Shark?

[tommy]

i agree with your assessments of those restaurants. however, we're probably not average 35-year-olds. we're special.

also, we should include the up-and-coming fine dining set, which is what i tried to do when i said "younger people" (younger than me). my first trip to JG was years ago, probably when i was 28 or so. i associate with some people in their late 20's, and i'm not sure they would agree with us.

Edited March 4, 2004 by tommy (log)

[Felonius]

Now, I certainly do know a whole crowd of people for whom getting their early or (preferably) first while the scene is still hot is a major big deal.  For example, I have friends who would much rather have gone to Per Se in the opening week than 6 months later when the restaurant had really started to hum -- and it's not like going both times was financially possible.  Besides, Per Se won't be the hip, new "scene place" in six months.  But, I don't think these are the diners that keep a restaurant alive and vital, and these are not the diners who are going back to AD/NY and Mix, Daniel and Cafe Boulud again and again.

I am one of the people in the latter category you mention, and so are many of my friends. If I'm spending a big chunk of my hard-earned dollars on a meal, the food and service trump everything else. I actually tend to avoid the new "scene" places, as I don't like dealing with the hassles of fighting for a table and the quality/service glitches that often plague new restaurants.

I don't think that the people chasing the scene are necessarily the same ones chasing really great high end food in NYC. I also don't think they matter as much for a restaurant's survival. I know from personal experience that the real backbone of clientele for a place like Daniel or Cafe Boulud comes from regulars who are seeking consistent food and service. Once the culinary thrillseekers have moved on to the Next Big Thing, earning a loyal group of regulars through consistent excellence is the only means for long-term survival in the top tier.

Edited March 4, 2004 by Felonius (log)

[Bux]

I should, perhaps, give the room the benefit of the doubt and say that since my visit was after dark (8:30ish?) I didn't at all feel its "openness."

There are a few restaurants whose character changes considerably from lunch to dinner. Any restaurants with large clear glass walls or exceptionally large windows is going to feel different from day to night. Jean Georges, is almost a completely different place. At lunch the room sings. At night it's just another well designed space, in my opinion. And it is a well designed space that supports fine dining. I don't need any more than that to enjoy my food to the fullest extent.

I'm impressed with the height of the ceiling at Eleven Madison Park at night. By day, there's so much natural daylight, that I'm almost convinced there is no ceiling. I have only been to lunch at Asiate. The view is impressive in all aspects. On a sunny day, the changing shadows are fascinating and sky is just voluptuous. At night with reflections of the room off the dark glass, the sky will not exist. I don't know if the window lights from the skyline on Fifth Avenue will compensate or be as fascinating.

[Felonius]

i agree with your assessments of those restaurants. however, we're probably not average 35-year-olds. we're special.

also, we should include the up-and-coming fine dining set, which is what i tried to do when i said "younger people" (younger than me). my first trip to JG was years ago, probably when i was 28 or so. i associate with some people in their late 20's, and i'm not sure they would agree with us.

Come to think of it, I only considered myself to be in the "younger" category because I'm often the youngest person in the dining room at many of my favorite places. So I probably am hanging out with the "stodgy" folk more than I care to admit!

There aren't all that many people in their twenties I know who have reached a point in their careers where they can afford to regularly dine at places like Daniel or Jean Georges. I suspect this skews the age group of their clientele upwards quite a bit. And as for the trust fund rebels, they're probably more likely to head to a place like Bond Street or Tao (ouch!) for a variety of reasons that are probably too off topic to deserve elaboration on this thread.

[Bux]

Why on earth would I go to a city like New York or Chicago or London or LA and eat at a second tier place instead of interesting local places - or world class places?

I'm thinking of our last visit to Paris. A three star meal was the highlight of our reservations. The rest of our meals all together didn't cost as much as that dinner, but almost all were interesting and some were special. Nevertheless, the one and two star places didn't attract us. It's not always like that, but there's been more than one post by more than one poster here on eGullet that has expressed the opinion that the best values in NYC are at the very top or at the ethnic restaurant level. When my means were far more modest than they are right now, it was the mid range of restaurants that went untested. Lots of meals in Chinatown would be interspersed with one at the top. A good part of our dining pattern these days however is determind by social dining with friends who may not like the nitty gritty ethnic dining we like and who don't care quite enough about haute cuisine to pay the tabs at the four star places. Thus we see more of the two star places too these days. Of course there are two star places that serve food pushing three or four stars and three star places whose rank is a testament to the lack or discernment of a critic.

[robyn]

Forget about the restaurants.  What about the patrons - the local ones - not the out of town patrons like me?  If someone's an upper middle class person - or beer and pretzels rich - how many times a year does that person dine in these places?  So - even in a city like New York - isn't there a premium placed on being new and trendy?  If you're only going to go to a 4 star 2 or 4 or 6 times a year - isn't it better to go to the ones with the current buzz - as opposed to the older more established ones - so you'll have something to talk about at cocktail parties?

valid point. there are certainly younger people who prefer to not dine where their uncle or parents do. if i didn't think Jean Georges was so good, it would certainly fall into the "old and stodgy" category for me. and whether it is old and stodgy isn't the point.

I guess I am as old as aunts or parents. And if I find myself in a restaurant or bar with a lot of younger people - it's usually because I've stumbled into some place by accident - like when I'm walking around looking for a little something after a play - or sought out a place where I can still have a cigarette (in New York that means not many places - and they're usually outside and casual - at least that's the way it was last time I was there).

I'll be going down to Boca Raton next week - and there's a courtyard in a small shopping center that has about 4 restaurants. There's a lot of outdoor seating. The place tends to attract a lot of younger people (at least a lot for Boca Raton) for drinks/light food after work and on Fridays/Saturdays. Older crowd for dinner during the week.

What kinds of places are trendy/popular with 20 and 30 somethings these days in New York and elsewhere (where I live it's mostly chain places)? Robyn

[robyn]

Why on earth would I go to a city like New York or Chicago or London or LA and eat at a second tier place instead of interesting local places - or world class places?

I'm thinking of our last visit to Paris. A three star meal was the highlight of our reservations. The rest of our meals all together didn't cost as much as that dinner, but almost all were interesting and some were special. Nevertheless, the one and two star places didn't attract us. It's not always like that, but there's been more than one post by more than one poster here on eGullet that has expressed the opinion that the best values in NYC are at the very top or at the ethnic restaurant level. When my means were far more modest than they are right now, it was the mid range of restaurants that went untested. Lots of meals in Chinatown would be interspersed with one at the top. A good part of our dining pattern these days however is determind by social dining with friends who may not like the nitty gritty ethnic dining we like and who don't care quite enough about haute cuisine to pay the tabs at the four star places. Thus we see more of the two star places too these days. Of course there are two star places that serve food pushing three or four stars and three star places whose rank is a testament to the lack or discernment of a critic.

We still eat that way - the bottom and the top (maybe not the very bottom all the time - but more near the bottom than the very top). The last restaurant we went to in Chinatown - I got the name from somewhere - forget where. When I asked for a gin and tonic - the waiter went out to his car and brought me his own personal bottle of rum to share. And there was more sea cucumber in the dishes than I cared for (it's not my favorite). Oh well - back to the drawing board .

We only did a bistro/1/2/3 star restaurant thing in Paris once. First trip - with a friend. He was trying to educate us about the differences - and he picked the restaurants to make his points. It was the first time anyone had tried to teach me and my husband about eating. And the lessons were invaluable. In many ways - including the point you make about restaurants deserving or not deserving their stars (the 2 star was Jamin - which would get its third star in short order). I recommend that approach for a first trip to Paris. Otherwise - we have eaten in 1 and 2 star restaurants in France mostly for our big deal meal in a particular area if there isn't a 3 star - or if the 1/2 star has something special to commend it (like the old Hotel du France in Auch with Andre Daguin in the kitchen). Otherwise - it's 1/2 knife and fork places.

Our situation with social dining is exactly the same as yours - except we don't have 4 star restaurants here. The point of the exercise those evenings isn't usually the food though. And I'm content if I get good conversation with friends and a decent meal (actually had one this week at a chain restaurant I'd never been to before - Stonewood Grill - nice plain grilled fish - which I'll settle for any day - bill was $150/4 including tax and tips - no dessert - and everyone had a drink or 2). Only place I draw the line is places like Ruth's Chris (I would not pay almost $200/couple for dinner to get a steak). Robyn

[robyn]

I think that's probably true of a certain set of people in New York.  But, in a city of this size, I don't think one can overestimate the number of fabulously wealthy people who live here.  There are plenty of people in NYC who eat out at three and four star restaurants 5 to 8 times a week.  Certainly it is not unusual for a wealthy businessperson to eat lunch at a top-tier restaurant (perhaps even the same top-tier restaurant) every day during the work week.  I know relatively young people in big money-making careers who eat at a three or four star place on at least a weekly basis.  For these people, I don't know that trendiness and newness makes a big difference.

Now, I certainly do know a whole crowd of people for whom getting their early or (preferably) first while the scene is still hot is a major big deal.  For example, I have friends who would much rather have gone to Per Se in the opening week than 6 months later when the restaurant had really started to hum -- and it's not like going both times was financially possible.  Besides, Per Se won't be the hip, new "scene place" in six months.  But, I don't think these are the diners that keep a restaurant alive and vital, and these are not the diners who are going back to AD/NY and Mix, Daniel and Cafe Boulud again and again.

OK - here it goes again (blew away the message I was writing by accident).

I will have to pass on the lunch scene (a la Four Seasons). It's not the kind of thing I'd do as a tourist. And when I was working and had an occasional "business lunch" in New York - it was mostly sandwiches in a conference room. Guess those people saved the Four Seasons for someone else .

I think even with very wealthy people - there's a sensitivity to places that are "in - places that are "out" - and places that are on their way out. I remember once - many years ago - we went to Perigord. It was on its way out - but I had heard good things about it. So we went. It was dismal. Food wasn't bad - but the room was empty - and the waiters were like something out of an old movie. I forget which food book it was - maybe Kitchen Confidential - that spoke of restaurants that had the smell of imminent death around them. That was Perigord on our visit. Although I don't need to be in this week's restaurant of the year - I have always avoided the smell of imminent death since then.

I think if I lived in New York - I would try to eat in a major restaurant once about every 2 weeks. Of course - if I had to pay New York real estate prices - I'd probably have to stay home and eat day old bread most of the time .

By the way - the absolutely best place for buzz/celebrity watching (not necessarily food) in the US in my opinion is LA. I'm at a competitive disadvantage because I don't recognize many celebrities - but it's fun. I lunched next to Selma Hayek and didn't know who she was (my husband told me). And I wouldn't have known that Larry King was sitting next to me at breakfast except there's an old lady who sits outside that restaurant and tells you where all the celebrities are sitting if you give her a few bucks for the Jewish National Fund . And we ate at a somewhat unusual restaurant in Beverly Hills - a "soul food" restaurant - high end fried chicken and fixins'. It was owned by and popular with African Americans. I suspect some of the young guys who were 6'6" or taller and 250 pounds and heavier were basketball or football players - but I didn't have a clue. Along the same lines - I'm clueless even when I'm home. I didn't recognize a Jacksonville Jaguar sitting next to me at a sushi bar one night. Just asked him when he stood up if he was a football player because he was about 6'8" - weighed more than 300 pounds - and had eaten about 20 orders of sushi - he was trying to "make weight" . I would recognize Alan Greenspan - but I've never dined next to him . Robyn

[docsconz]

I am beginning to believe that J-G maybe has jumped the shark. While I have not tried any of his more recent openings (the reviews here and elsewhere really aren't that enticing), I just had a tasting menu at Jean-George that was less than spectacular in a number of ways.

I went last evening with my wife, my siblings and their spouses (we were seven altogether) to celebrate my brother's 50th b-day. We have a family tradition of the siblings treating any other sibling and spouse to a dinner at the restaurant of that sibling's choice on the occasion of the 50th birthday. My brother chose J-G and made reservations initially for nine people. He was told that that number couldn't be accomodated in the main dining room, but could in Nougatine. When another brother and his wife couldn't make it, he called the restaurant to change the reservation and was told that he could have the main dining room. he then confirmed the night before the dinner, however, upon our arrival, we were show to a table in the crowded Nougatine afterall. The restaurant stated they had no record of the chaange, although the table was set for seven and not nine. they were unable to put us in the main dining room. The menu in nougatine is different from that of the main dining room. After complaining, they allowed us to order the tasting menu from the main dining room, but if we didn't want that we would be relegated to the Nougatine menu because the "kitchen was so busy". Since we were there to experience J-G and not nougatine we opted for the tasting menu. I enjoyed the food, although it didn't knock me out. It seemed as if every course had an element of foam. Now I like a good foam every now nd then, but this was simply too much considering the derivative nature of the concept. The other distressing part of the meal was that the service was mediocre at best. There were several significant lapses such as frequent banging of waitstaff into occupied chairs and the sommalier forgetting or neglecting to pour wine for one of my brothers.

While we generally enjoyed ourselves despite the lapses, the lapses led to less than stellar behavior on the par of some of my tablemates. This may have become a bit of a vicious circle as criticism of the restaurant from my table became fairly vocal. It wa actually rather embarrassing, albeit the criticism was largely though not completely deserved (the food got more criticism than it deserved).

The one concesion towards mollification on th part of the restaurant was as we were leaving. The maitre'd gave me his card and told me to call him before coming in next time so he could set me up with "a special meal". The only problem is that I'm not sure I have a great desire to return.

[Felonius]

Docsonz, sorry to hear about the birthday dinner gone awry. From the date of your post, I assume you dined there on Saturday night. For what it's worth, I've had a string of disappointing experiences in terms of food and service at many of NYC's top restaurants (i.e. Daniel, Jean Georges, Bouley to name a few) on Saturday nights. It's gotten to the point that I avoid these places on weekends whenever possible. I'd be willing to bet that Jean Georges on a Tuesday night or any weekday lunch would have been a superior experience. One could argue that a true 4-star establishment should be able to handle the weekend rush with aplomb, but I have found this to be more of a theory than a reality in NYC.

I've never found the service at Jean Georges to be quite as professional as that at a place like Daniel or Le Bernardin. In my experience, the JG waitstaff often tend to be younger and sometimes less knowledgeable about fine dining service. Some of them have struck me as being more of the actor/waiter variety than people devoted to the restaurant business as a career. Also, though I live nearby and have dined at JG countless times, no one at the front desk has ever seemed to recognize me or greet me as a regular customer. In contrast, the staff at the few other high end NYC places I frequent never fail to recognize me, call me by name, and treat me as if I were and old friend joining them for dinner. So, as much as I like the food at Jean Georges, it's not a place for which I hold any loyalty or real affection. If better options arrive on the West Side (and it appears they have just across the street!), I will likely wave a pleasant goodbye to Fonzy and the Shark and head to another beach.....

[docsconz]

My previous experience with J-G was for lunch and that was a remarkeable experience not to mention a wonderful value. Overall, this was disappointing in so many respects. The food would probably have been more well received if the initiation into that night's dining would have been less aggravating.

I got the impression of a restaurant resting on its laurels.

[Pan]

One could argue that a true 4-star establishment should be able to handle the weekend rush with aplomb

I would argue that, without question.

[docsconz]

That is one of the things one pays for.

[tommy]

i haven't been to JG in a while, but aren't reservations hard to come by even on a wednesday night? if so, isn't there just as much of a strain on the restaurant on wednesday as on a saturday? assuming all things are equal (turn-over time, etc), i'm tempted to say that the 'weekend rush' explanation is just an excuse. clearly JG should be able to run at the same high level on tuesday or saturday.

[plpcolumbia]

I was in New York this past Fall and had dinner at JG with my wife. The service was competent, but not outstanding. There were definitely some missteps during the evening. We had to ask for the wine list a couple of times. And when we did order the wine it didn't arrive until we had just finished our appetizer. It was a Saturday night and it was busy, but no one seemed to really care (a gracious "we're so sorry the wine is late" would have been fine). Getting the wine list and getting the wine on time are things that I shouldn't have to worry about at a place of this caliber.

The food itself was not that impressive either. The poached veal tenderloin is an interesting concept, and it was buttery soft, but was still lacking in flavor. And the pineapple compote on the plate was nearly inedible. I get the whole pinapple/beef thing, but it's much better done on a skewer over a charcoal grill. The meal ended with those homemade mint marshmallows and that just made me want to go home and sit in front of the fire and roast some "real" Kraft marshmallows.

Our other meal on the town that weekend was breakfast the next morning at Joe Jr.'s, a diner in the Village. In contrast to JG, the atmosphere was warm and welcoming. My wife and I actually had some privacy in a booth all to ourselves (again, in contrast to JG where we practically sharing our thoughts with a nice couple at a banquette probably designed for 4 people). Our food came in a timely manner and the staff was graciously able to anticipate our needs (coffee poured at proper intervals, etc.). My Joe Jr.'s experience surpassed JG in nearly all respects and it was about $450 cheaper!

I really do love fine dining in New York (Babbo, Craft, Gohtam Bar and Grill), but JG just did not pass muster.

[rozrapp]

My brother chose J-G and made reservations initially for nine people. He was told that that number couldn't be accomodated in the main dining room, but could in Nougatine. When another brother and his wife couldn't make it, he called the restaurant to change the reservation and was told that he could have the main dining room. he then confirmed the night before the dinner, however, upon our arrival, we were show to a table in the crowded Nougatine afterall. The restaurant stated they had no record of the chaange, although the table was set for seven and not nine. they were unable to put us in the main dining room.

One of the things I have learned over time when making reservations at upscale restaurants is to get the name of the person you are speaking to, particularly when, as was the case with your brother, there is an important change and a specific promise is made by the restaurant's reservationist, i.e, seating arrangements. That way, if things do not go as expected when you arrive, at least you can ascribe the mix-up to a particular individual.

I'm sure you're brother was very disappointed that the celebration on this special birthday did not quite go as planned. Totally understandable. And that's probably why the complaints during dinner may have been more vociferous than they might have been under more ordinary circumstances.

I also agree with everyone who said that, in a restaurant of this caliber, service should be as first rate on a Saturday as any other day of the week.

I've never been to Jean Georges and, after reading about these less than stellar experiences, as well as Felonius' description of how they treat a "regular" customer, I'm not particularly anxious to try it.

[Bux]

I really do love fine dining in New York (Babbo, Craft, Gohtam Bar and Grill), but JG just did not pass muster.

Interesting point. I'm familiar with those three restaurants and they all serve excellent food, but I can't say that by NYC standards any of them aim at "fine" dining. That is to say, none of them appear to have pretentions to four stars. Jean Georges is another story. This is not to say it necessarily succeeds.

[tommy]

does your definition of "fine dining" include only those restaurants that are rated 4 stars or pretentions to 4 stars?

i think for some people Babbo would qualify as "fine dining". Gotham as well. it's all relative, but i'm curious if there's an actual definition that i've missed.

edited for clarity.

Edited March 9, 2004 by tommy (log)

[Felonius]

i haven't been to JG in a while, but aren't reservations hard to come by even on a wednesday night? if so, isn't there just as much of a strain on the restaurant on wednesday as on a saturday? assuming all things are equal (turn-over time, etc), i'm tempted to say that the 'weekend rush' explanation is just an excuse. clearly JG should be able to run at the same high level on tuesday or saturday.

These restaurants are all booked nearly solid, but Fridays and Saturdays are incrementally worse in my opinion. I suspect it may have something to do with more tables being full right at the begining of service, people lingering longer over a weekend "special" dinner, less cancellations, etc. I think the kitchen just gets harder hit for longer on those nights, and there is more of a rush to get plates out and turn the early tables for the 2nd and third wave of reservations.

Whatever the cause, my worst meals and service have nearly always occurred on Friday or Saturday night, as have most problems with being seated on time for a reservation. This has been apparent at nearly every high end restaurant I frequent. I think part of it also has to do with overbooking on those nights. I think most restaurants are guilty of this practice, with the exception of a place like ADNY, where tables aren't turned during the course of the evening.

[tommy]

These restaurants are all booked nearly solid, but Fridays and Saturdays are incrementally worse in my opinion.  I suspect it may have something to do with more tables being full right at the begining of service, people lingering longer over a weekend "special" dinner, less cancellations, etc.  I think the kitchen just gets harder hit for longer on those nights, and there is more of a rush to get plates out and turn the early tables for the 2nd and third wave of reservations. 

that sounds like a reasonable explanation. but i still think it's an excuse when we're talking about a place like JG.

Edited March 9, 2004 by tommy (log)

[Bux]

does your definition of "fine dining" include only those restaurants that are rated 4 stars or pretentions to 4 stars?

i think for some people Babbo would qualify as "fine dining". Gotham as well. it's all relative, but i'm curious if there's an actual definition that i've missed.

I would think the definition is subjective and relative. I think it's territorially relative, but suspect its also subjectively relative and different for each person, but it's hard to communicate without some broad definitions. Towards that end, I offered my idea of what "fine" dining or "fine dining" might be in Manhattan. We need to understand that even the four star rating is going to be subjective. We all won't agree on whether JG or any other restaurant deserves that rating. We can debate whether the category of fine dining includes both Babbo and JG or just JG. I think fine dining has to encompass more than just food. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion even as to whether Babbo or JG has better or finer food, but I think JG aims at being a "finer" restaurant, albeit, not necessarily a better restaurant for everyone. My point here is that I believe JG is seen as operating in a different plane than the other three restaurants in some ways, but of course that's subject to personal opinion and debate.

[plpcolumbia]

does your definition of "fine dining" include only those restaurants that are rated 4 stars or pretentions to 4 stars? 

Acutally "stars" didn't really factor into my definition of "fine dining" at all. I was just thinking about places where great food is served in a professional and courteous way in surroundings worthy of a special occasion.

[Pan]

Anyone think Amma is not fine dining? I'd tend to think that any restaurant that gets 3 stars should provide fine dining. I'm aware that Amma got 2, but I'm not sure it shouldn't have gotten 3.

[SobaAddict70]

I think El Gordo said somewhere that one of the hallmarks of a two star rating is that the restaurant in question is a potential three-star but that for some inexplicable reason the reviewer chose to grant it two.

The term "fine dining" as it relates to restaurants in general wildly varies depending on one's point of view of course. As it relates to restaurants in New York City, it is, in my opinion, usually taken to mean restaurants that seek to provide an experience worthy of a upper echelon two star or three/four star establishment.

Soba

[Felonius]

does your definition of "fine dining" include only those restaurants that are rated 4 stars or pretentions to 4 stars? 

i think for some people Babbo would qualify as "fine dining".  Gotham as well.  it's all relative, but i'm curious if there's an actual definition that i've missed.

I would think the definition is subjective and relative. I think it's territorially relative, but suspect its also subjectively relative and different for each person, but it's hard to communicate without some broad definitions. Towards that end, I offered my idea of what "fine" dining or "fine dining" might be in Manhattan. We need to understand that even the four star rating is going to be subjective. We all won't agree on whether JG or any other restaurant deserves that rating. We can debate whether the category of fine dining includes both Babbo and JG or just JG. I think fine dining has to encompass more than just food. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion even as to whether Babbo or JG has better or finer food, but I think JG aims at being a "finer" restaurant, albeit, not necessarily a better restaurant for everyone. My point here is that I believe JG is seen as operating in a different plane than the other three restaurants in some ways, but of course that's subject to personal opinion and debate.

I would definitely categorize Babbo and Gotham Bar and Grill as "fine dining". JG may be considered in a slightly higher tier in terms of ratings, but the other two could hold their own against the best fine dining restaurants in any city in the US. If my memory serves me correctly, I've never had a meal in the US outside of San Francisco or perhaps Chicago that surpassed my cumulative experiences at JG, Gotham or Babbo.

I haven't been to Gotham B&G in a while, but I have always considered it a place that strives to be in the top tier of NYC in terms of food, ambience service and price structure. Whether or not it is rated with as many stars as JG doesn't change its target market.

Babbo is indeed a bit more casual and less expensive than JG, but I have no doubt that they see themselves as batting for the culinary home run as well.

While I think the food at JG holds its own amongst the four stars in NYC, Daniel, Le Bernardin, ADNY and Lespinasse (RIP) have provided a higher overall level of consistent service quality in my experience. For that reason I decided two years ago to stick with lunch at JG. The food and service are often better than at dinner and the price is about half. In a much more extreme example, I gave up dining at Bouley altogether because I had too many 3-4 star meals there with 1 star service.

Edited March 9, 2004 by Felonius (log)