Has Jean-Georges Vongerichten Jumped the Shark?

[slkinsey]

Hmmmm... what is "fine dining" and what is "fine dining in New York" (and does NY have a distinct style of fine dining) and what separates fine dining from really good dining. A lot of interesting fodder for discussion, and these questiona may merit their own thread. I'll inject another point to the debate: to what extent is one's concept of "fine dining" in NYC and elsewhere dependent on the French model of what a top restaurant experience should be?

[tommy]

does your definition of "fine dining" include only those restaurants that are rated 4 stars or pretentions to 4 stars? 

Acutally "stars" didn't really factor into my definition of "fine dining" at all. I was just thinking about places where great food is served in a professional and courteous way in surroundings worthy of a special occasion.

that question was directed towards bux. sorry for the confusion.

[robyn]

Hmmmm... what is "fine dining" and what is "fine dining in New York" (and does NY have a distinct style of fine dining) and what separates fine dining from really good dining.  A lot of interesting fodder for discussion, and these questiona may merit their own thread.  I'll inject another point to the debate: to what extent is one's concept of "fine dining" in NYC and elsewhere dependent on the French model of what a top restaurant experience should be?

I think dining has 4 elements: food, service, atmosphere and value (the last not being relevant at the highest levels). No matter where you eat - you want excellent food, service and atmosphere. But they will of course vary depending on what cuisine you're eating - and where you're eating it. To give you an extreme example - I might find a certain space terrific in New York. But I might be disappointed in the same space if I encountered it in Hawaii. It just wouldn't "fit". And patio dining in New York isn't much competition for patio dining in a fine restaurant overlooking the Pacific Ocean. In other words - different places have different things to offer. And you hope to get the best of what a place has to offer when you're there.

I can't comment on your question about the French model of dining because I don't know what your definition is. What is your definition of the French model? Robyn

[Lactic Solar Dust]

I would have to agree that Jean George's is in a serious decline as well. I think that it might have to do with the chef spreading himself too thin and not being there to make sure everything is to his standards. However, maybe his standards are not as high as they once were and is more concerned with making money. After all, that is why one would open so many places and they are all cash cows. I think with some of the super star chefs back in the day are forgetting why the got into the buisness in the first place and have become distracted by the press and the dollar signs. Maybe.

[jbraynolds]

I wouldn't call Gotham, Babbo or Craft (or USC, Gramercy, Hearth, etc.) "fine dining" when compared to Jean-Georges, Le Bernardin, Atelier, Per Se, AD/NY, Chanterelle, Daniel or, in the recent past, Lespinasse. Anybody who has been to any of these places and the aforementioned three would realize that their goals/aims aren't anywhere near as lofty. Which is NOT to say that they aren't wonderful restaurants.

Edited March 22, 2004 by jbraynolds (log)

[Fat Guy]

I'm not sure I can swallow the notion of defining Babbo, Craft, or Gotham as "not fine dining." The overwhelming majority of restaurants with even one New York Times star would be considered "fine dining" restaurants not only by 99% of Americans but also probably by 98% of New Yorkers. I think the industry would define fine dining as beginning at the level above TGI Friday's and the Olive Garden: restaurants with sommeliers, pastry chefs, a certain staff-to-customer ratio, ambitious food, etc. Were I to distinguish between Babbo, Craft, and Gotham on the one hand and ADNY, Atelier, and Jean-Georges on the other, I'd say it's the difference between fine dining and "luxury dining."

[jbraynolds]

Very good point. I guess my definition of New York "fine dining" is, indeed, actually "luxury dining" and that's the distinction that, in my opinion, sets the J-G's, Daniel's and Ducasse's apart from, say the Danny Meyer group or Gotham.

[Bux]

"Fine" is a strange term. I'll open up a bottle of wine I purchased for $8.99 and taste it. Mrs. B will ask "How is it," and I'll reply "Fine." By no means will I be attempting to say it's a wine that meets the definition of "fine wine." I had a fine dinner at Hearth the other evening, but I wouldn't consider Hearth to offer "fine dining." At the same time, if you asked me about the food, I wouldn't consider "fine" to sufficiently describe the pleasure of the meal.

If some people want to think of Olive Garden as fine dining, it's fine with me. If others believe there are only a handful of fine dining establishments in NYC, that's also okay.

[herbacidal]

I'm not sure I can swallow the notion of defining Babbo, Craft, or Gotham as "not fine dining." The overwhelming majority of restaurants with even one New York Times star would be considered "fine dining" restaurants not only by 99% of Americans but also probably by 98% of New Yorkers. I think the industry would define fine dining as beginning at the level above TGI Friday's and the Olive Garden: restaurants with sommeliers, pastry chefs, a certain staff-to-customer ratio, ambitious food, etc. Were I to distinguish between Babbo, Craft, and Gotham on the one hand and ADNY, Atelier, and Jean-Georges on the other, I'd say it's the difference between fine dining and "luxury dining."

Of the demarcation between and examples of fine dining and luxury dining given on this thread, this would be the one I would agree with most.

[SobaAddict70]

Apparently, JGV still does with respect to Spice Market.

At least the Times critic thinks so.

Click here to find out more...

Soba

[Phatlouie07]

If one of JG's strengths are consistancy, keeping a high quality level in his restaurants even when he's not there...well that's just bullshit(sry for my use of a deragotory term)...he's definately jumped the shark and bit off more than he can chew...he's classically trained and now all he's doing is opening one and two star restaurants around the globe?..has he lost it?...is he focusing on opening more and more restaurants than keeping the quality etc that he's known for?..i think that JG needs to get out of his own little world and face it that he's spreading himself too thin.

[emsny]

Let me first declare that my wife and I eat at Jean Georges every six weeks or two months – occasionally more often – and that they know us and know that we’re ever-interested in trying whatever’s new on the menu.

That said, and in the full understanding that all my experiences at the restaurant have been mine and not other posters’, let me make two comments. First, the old-standby dishes remain on the menu for a couple of very good reasons. They’re good; and diners who come in once in a lifetime or a blue moon want them. My boss, who is not given to gastronomic excess, found herself there a few weeks ago for the first time, and what dish leapt out at her from the appetizer menu? The scallops with cauliflower and raisins, mentioned in earlier posts. She ordered and adored it. It’s a terrific dish. And, as to its being old-hat, well, I noticed on the spring menu of young Tom Aiken, aspiring to multiple Michelin stars in London and working hard to build a reputation as a cutting-edge chef, a dish that was obviously based on it: it remains a dish that strikes a chord in enfants terribles (if such Aiken be).

Secondly, new and exciting stuff is constantly coming out of that kitchen. Vongerichten and his team may have interesting fads that last a while – for tapioca, celery, whatever – but the level of inventiveness is astonishingly high, and the creativity is always consistent with the purpose of bringing clean, vivid flavors to the plate. To me, this is in contrast to some other chefs known for bubbling creativity (Gagnaire for example), who don’t know when to stop, resulting in a muddied message and muddied flavors.

Just one example of this clarity: foam (or what is now being referred to as froth – six of one . . .). So many cooks use it gratuitously without understanding what it can do. It can take a little bit of flavor/aroma and spread it all around your mouth and neighboring regions. Recent froths at Jean Georges have often been acidic (vinegar; lemon), and they have done an astonishing job in that regard: all the zip of the ingredient without a big acidic jolt. This really is on a very high level of comprehension and execution.

So, let’s not start thinking that Vongerichten is slipping behind – it isn’t a race in that sense anyway, of course, but it’s hard not to portray it that way.

[Phatlouie07]

Let me first declare that my wife and I eat at Jean Georges every six weeks or two months – occasionally more often – and that they know us and know that we’re ever-interested in trying whatever’s new on the menu.

That said, and in the full understanding that all my experiences at the restaurant have been mine and not other posters’, let me make two comments. First, the old-standby dishes remain on the menu for a couple of very good reasons. They’re good; and diners who come in once in a lifetime or a blue moon want them. My boss, who is not given to gastronomic excess, found herself there a few weeks ago for the first time, and what dish leapt out at her from the appetizer menu? The scallops with cauliflower and raisins, mentioned in earlier posts. She ordered and adored it. It’s a terrific dish. And, as to its being old-hat, well, I noticed on the spring menu of young Tom Aiken, aspiring to multiple Michelin stars in London and working hard to build a reputation as a cutting-edge chef, a dish that was obviously based on it: it remains a dish that strikes a chord in enfants terribles (if such Aiken be).

Secondly, new and exciting stuff is constantly coming out of that kitchen. Vongerichten and his team may have interesting fads that last a while – for tapioca, celery, whatever – but the level of inventiveness is astonishingly high, and the creativity is always consistent with the purpose of bringing clean, vivid flavors to the plate. To me, this is in contrast to some other chefs known for bubbling creativity (Gagnaire for example), who don’t know when to stop, resulting in a muddied message and muddied flavors.

Just one example of this clarity: foam (or what is now being referred to as froth – six of one . . .). So many cooks use it gratuitously without understanding what it can do. It can take a little bit of flavor/aroma and spread it all around your mouth and neighboring regions. Recent froths at Jean Georges have often been acidic (vinegar; lemon), and they have done an astonishing job in that regard: all the zip of the ingredient without a big acidic jolt. This really is on a very high level of comprehension and execution.

So, let’s not start thinking that Vongerichten is slipping behind – it isn’t a race in that sense anyway, of course, but it’s hard not to portray it that way.

i see your point...and i apologize if i have upsetted you in anyway.

[DutchMuse]

I am of two minds re JG and the question, "Is he slipping?" If the question is limited to his grand restaurant, the answer, for me, is no. It's a great place, and again to me, as good as ever.

However, the same cannot be said of him as represented by his larger enterprise. That is what is causing his reputation to be affected. 66? Spice Market? V Steakhouse? All equivalent to one star restaurants (disregarding Amanda Hesser's review of Spice Market). The J-G enterprise is one thing; his signature restaurant bearing his name is another.

[oakapple]

I am of two minds re JG and the question, "Is he slipping?" If the question is limited to his grand restaurant, the answer, for me, is no. It's a great place, and again to me, as good as ever.

However, the same cannot be said of him as represented by his larger enterprise. That is what is causing his reputation to be affected. 66? Spice Market? V Steakhouse? All equivalent to one star restaurants (disregarding Amanda Hesser's review of Spice Market). The J-G enterprise is one thing; his signature restaurant bearing his name is another.

If one argues that JGV is slipping, what exactly are you comparing him to?

You're surely correct to say that 66, Spice Market, and V Steakhouse aren't as good as Jean-Georges. But did JGV intend these restaurants to be as good as Jean-Georges? I don't think so. Jean-Georges is his four-star flagship, and by most accounts is still performing at that level.

But JGV's other properties are meant to fill different niches. Whether deserved or not, most reviews of Spice Market — not just Amanda Hesser's — have been extremely favorable. I'm writing from memory, but no reviewer in my recollection gave it less than two stars, and at least one other gave it three. V Steakhouse has earned at least two stars from every reviewer in town that awards stars except for Frank Bruni.

So, it is no evidence of slippage that JGV's other properties aren't on the level of Jean-Georges: they aren't meant to be.

[Pan]

I guess the next question is whether some of the older "satellite" (?) restaurants in his empire have in fact deteriorated. At a certain point several years ago, I thought Jo Jo had. Some meal reports on this site seem to suggest that Mercer Kitchen may have deteriorated. I don't frequent his restaurants enough to draw any firm conclusions about this question, but it's a pertinent question.

[AndrewG]

I guess the next question is whether some of the older "satellite" (?) restaurants in his empire have in fact deteriorated. At a certain point several years ago, I thought Jo Jo had. Some meal reports on this site seem to suggest that Mercer Kitchen may have deteriorated. I don't frequent his restaurants enough to draw any firm conclusions about this question, but it's a pertinent question.

I think it’s a very good question and I am curious to hear other opinions. I do believe that JG (the restaurant) has maintained its high standards but Jo Jo and Vong have slipped considerably (both food and service). Jo Jo, in my opinion, hasn't been the same since its renovation a few years ago. My last two meals at Vong were subpar to the point that I won't go back. I was never very impressed with Mercer Kitchen so I can't really say if it has deteriorated.

My biggest disappointment has been with Nougatine. At one point, I was eating there at least one or two times a month. I stopped eating there frequently as it became very inconsistent. I have always felt (and this could be my complete imagination) that JG and Nougatine were considerably better when Jean George (the chef) was there. I have no idea how often he is there given all his new restaurants.

[Phatlouie07]

I am of two minds re JG and the question, "Is he slipping?"  If the question is limited to his grand restaurant, the answer, for me, is no. It's a great place, and again to me, as good as ever.

However, the same cannot be said of him as represented by his larger enterprise. That is what is causing his reputation to be affected. 66? Spice Market? V Steakhouse? All equivalent to one star restaurants (disregarding Amanda Hesser's review of Spice Market).  The J-G enterprise is one thing; his signature restaurant bearing his name is another.

If one argues that JGV is slipping, what exactly are you comparing him to?

You're surely correct to say that 66, Spice Market, and V Steakhouse aren't as good as Jean-Georges. But did JGV intend these restaurants to be as good as Jean-Georges? I don't think so. Jean-Georges is his four-star flagship, and by most accounts is still performing at that level.

But JGV's other properties are meant to fill different niches. Whether deserved or not, most reviews of Spice Market — not just Amanda Hesser's — have been extremely favorable. I'm writing from memory, but no reviewer in my recollection gave it less than two stars, and at least one other gave it three. V Steakhouse has earned at least two stars from every reviewer in town that awards stars except for Frank Bruni.

So, it is no evidence of slippage that JGV's other properties aren't on the level of Jean-Georges: they aren't meant to be.

i don't get it....how come it's not meant to be that his other properties(66, SpiceMarket, V Steakhouse) aren't on the same level as Jean Georges???

[jeunefilleparis]

does your definition of "fine dining" include only those restaurants that are rated 4 stars or pretentions to 4 stars?

i think for some people Babbo would qualify as "fine dining". Gotham as well. it's all relative, but i'm curious if there's an actual definition that i've missed.

edited for clarity.

I would hope that if you are paying $35 for an entree ( like at Gotham) that it would be considered fine dining.

I definately agree with someones previous post about getting the reservationists name. As a former reservationist, if I made a promise that was confirmed by the chef or manager I would always note that. I can not tell you how wise this is to have your back covered as a reservationist as we are scapegoats for everyones problems in the restaurant from server to sous chef. I am so happy that job is in the past

I had dessert at Nougatine about 3 weeks ago. My aunt was there for her mother's birthday and i stopped by to say hi. I ended up joining them. since they had already started their tasting , my aunt who is tiny shared hers with me, not half and half by any means, just that when she was finished what she wanted she wuold give the rest to me. Our server was less than thrilled about this. OF course they immediately set my place and offered me a drink but i could tell that she was annoyed that i wasnt ordering. Having worked in the biz, i can understand but you know what, it happens and they just have to deal with it. I did order dessert wtih them at the end

In February I had a full on tasting menu at J-G. Parts of it were very good and the service was for the most part on the ball. I ended up eating there alone after a friend couldnt make it last minute and since i had wanted to go for so long, i just decided to do it with out him. they were very acommodating and i got a tour of the empty kitchen since it was rather late when i finished.

In any case, its a great place, i m sure like all restaurants they have good nights and bad nights. J-G is not one of my favorites in nyc, i d recommend a dozen others before it!

[oakapple]

i don't get it....how come it's not meant to be that his other properties(66, SpiceMarket, V Steakhouse) aren't on the same level as Jean Georges???

Not all restaurants aspire to four stars. To get four stars, you need to operate at a certain level of service, wine list, ingredients, preparation, décor, etc. Mind you, there's no guarantee that restaurants will get the star rating they're shooting for, but they don't all shoot for four.

And if you actually visit the restaurants mentioned, it is quite clear that they are less formal and less ambitious than Jean-Georges. This is not to say that these restaurants got the number of stars they expected or wanted. But none of them were seeking four.

[rich]

there's no guarantee that restaurants will get the star rating they're shooting for, but they don't all shoot for four.

Pity the poor restaurant(s) that doesn't shoot for the "4," but gets it anyway.

What to do then? Dump those extra star(s) with yesterday's leftovers?

[slkinsey]

Today's review in the NY Times by Frank Bruni would suggest that the answer to the question posed in this thread is coming periously close to "yes."

[Mercer Kitchen's] true calling becomes clear on a crowded Friday night, when the tables turn quickly, tweaked martinis line the bar and clay pots of crunchy French fries (excellent, as it happens) sprout from every third table. This is the SoHo version of an Applebee's.

Ouch!

But you keep wondering if the food they deliver [at Vong] is really as it should be and all that it could be, if the restaurant is receiving Mr. Vongerichten’s most considered judgments and the most dedicated efforts of the chef de cuisine, Pierre Schutz, who’s been around since the beginning.

Thoughts?

[Nathan]

JG and Perry Street are great.

I haven't been to 66 and Spice Market we all know.

You can still have a tolerable meal at Jo-Jo (and from the sound of it, Vong)...perhaps there should be a JG rule: only eat at his newest restaurant and his flagship.

[Sneakeater]

I read that review a bit differently.

To me, "jumping the shark" means that JGV has lost it: that he's spread so thin that he can't develop good new places or maintain quality at any of his places.

I think the thrust of the review is a little bit different. I think the review is saying that secondary parts of these culinary empires predictably (but regrettably) tend to get ignored by management, so that the quality at those places slips seriously. In other words, I think that Bruni is saying that you regrettably can't assume the JGV label is a guaranty of quality as to these older, secondary places that have been allowed to grow tired. But as Bruni himself notes, that doesn't mean that the flagship restaurant, or newer entries still getting management's attention, are of lesser quality. If JGV opens a new restaurant, you can still go with some expectation of quality.

I had dinner at Perry Street Monday night. That dinner was not the work of an executive chef who has "jumped the shark." It was interesting, vibrant, and, on the whole (in its determinately modest way), remarkable.

Ten years from now, who knows.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Nathan]

actually, one should probably add the residential corollary to the JG rule:

JG's flagship, newest restaurant and any restaurant he lives above will always be superlative.